Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

Mr. Incognito

I had been writing an article on suicide and then Darren Sutherland was found dead in his apartment, the English media are reporting he hung himself. I'm reproducing the article here. I was unsure whether to post in Humanities or not but AH gives a wide spectrum of opinion so if the mods here want to move it feel free.

There is a word that, historically, is not discussed in the media. Its stigma is an ancient one. You can curse to your hearts content after the watershed but you'll never get this past the censors. The word is suicide. I heard reported on the radio on newstalk when I was driving today that there are more deaths in Ireland from suicide than fatalities on the road. That shocked me. Ireland, with it's gum ball rally roads that were sneezed onto an undulating landscape. A country where our politicians say a few drinks are grand and “ah, sure nothing wrong with it with getting into the car to drive home.” A country where you can fail your driving test with no driving experience, be certified dangerous on the road and then get in your car and drive home? This faraway land has more people killing themselves that the perverse concrete lottery scythes down? Wow.

I had to dig out some statistics. Here's a study done by Paul Corcoran and Ellen Arensman. Kudos. Yoink.

http://www.nosp.ie/mortality_statistics.pdf

The Results showed that the number of suicides in Ireland doubled between 1987 and 1998. They appear to level off between 1998 and 2003 and per the Irish Association of Suicidology (yes, they exist) they seem to have stayed at this plateau. Their stats are here:

http://www.ias.ie/stats.htm

The statistics scared the **** out of me. For example there is a column for 5-14 year olds. As a father that column really scares me.

Suicide is one of those weird things that we as mortal beings have to get our perverbial heads around. Whether we like to admit it or not we've all flirted with the idea. Don't believe me? Have a discussion over the water cooler with your mates on how they would like to die. Everyone has an opinion. Some are drowners, some are going to “in my sleep”, others, like myself, are the massive coronary heart attack thank you very much. We cannot go on burying our heads in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. It's a human condition but suicide carries with it an enormous stigma. They cheated.

The thing about suicide is there is no point trying to rationalise it. It's not rational. It's generally impulsive and its finality is probably not grasped by those that undertake it. It's perceived effects are the full myriad or human emotions. We see copycat suicides presumably by those that seek attention. Suicides that seek to hurt others but mostly suicide is undertaken by those that want a way out. The ultimate Zanax to make the pain go away. **** this, I'm outta here. But the thing is, when you're dead you're not coming back and all the supposed hurt and attention you were seeking to escape it's no longer yours. It's passed onto those that are left picking up the pieces and trying, and sometimes failing to emotionally glue them together again.

When I started this article I thought I was in the red zone. The high risk 20-30 male, and all the intangible pressures that supposedly go with it but digging out the stats I'm only marginally at risk than the little old lady down the street. This affects all of us and shiney coloured pie charts don't dimish the real pain of said little old ladys kids when Mommy tops off after popping off to Bingo.

Suicide exists. It's been here for as long as humans developed self awareness. Putting our fingers in our ears won't make it go away. A culture of don't ask, don't tell is no longer acceptable. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be taken out of the veil of secrecy and mysticism. We need to talk about death and not glorify it. I mean, this is the week Republicans are celebrating the suicide of ten political prisoners who starved themselves to death. Is this the image we want to impart on vulnerable people of suicide? When we do not have public debate on the issues we do not have a balanced and educated view to form an opinion on. The study above was remarkable for two things that seem to have been lost on the authors. I'll quote

“Either-way decriminalization would be presumed to lead to an increase in suicide whereas the reported number of suicide deaths that occurred in 1993 was actually 10% lower than in 1992 a rare decrease”

What the authors didn't seem to appreciate is that the decriminisation of suicide brought it into the remit of public debate. People talked openly about it. The families of suicide victims spoke openly of the stigma and pain and suffering and whole hearted trauma of it all and 10% listened and thought better and then instead of learning from the experience we all went back to pretending again.

The second point the authors missed, and this is obvious, is their own bigotry. Decriminisation would be presumed to lead to an increase? Are you mental? Oh, yipee I can kill myself and not go to jail. What? Do you think someone about to commit suicide gives a fiddlers **** about the legal consequences of death. Sure, sue me. There is an inherent misunderstanding right there of the very nature of suicide and this from the authors of a study on same. It makes me wonder.

And because I'm an unqualified half-wit who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about I'll reproduce the myths of suicide from the IAS webpage. Take care out there.

http://www.ias.ie/myths.htm

Myths About Suicide
Those who talk about suicide are the least likely to attempt it - NOT TRUE. About 80% of those who take their own lives will have talked about it to some significant other in the few months before hand.

If someone is going to complete suicide they are going to do it and there is nothing you can do about it – NOT TRUE. The majority of those who take their own lives are ambivalent about doing so until the end. Most people who complete suicide do not want to die they just want to end their pain.

You can get a good idea how serious someone is about a suicide attempt by looking at the method used – NOT TRUE. Most people have little awareness of the lethality of what they are doing. The seriousness of the attempt is not necessarily related to the seriousness of the intent.

If someone has a history of making cries for help then they won't do it for real - NOT TRUE. The group of people at highest risk for suicide is those who have attempted it in the previous year.

Only the clinically depressed make serious suicide attempts - NOT TRUE People are also at risk suffering from other forms of psychiatric illness and emotional distress.

Those with personality disorders attempt suicide to manipulate others - a commonly held belief. Many a patient is alienated and an ideal opportunity for therapeutic intervention missed because of the reception they receive in some emergency departments.

If someone is going to commit suicide they will not tell anyone of their intentions and prepare well in advance - NOT TRUE. Many suicides are completed on impulse.

Talking about suicide encourages it - NOT TRUE. Raising the issue of suicide with those who are depressed or distressed may open the door to therapeutic intervention.

Suicide can be a blessed relief no just for the individual but those surrounding him or her - NOT TRUE. Bereavement by suicide is a very heavy cross to bear; those bereaved by suicide have special needs and need support. Bereavement by suicide is itself a risk factor for suicide.

Mr. Presentable

Nah, it should be swept under the carpet along with sexual abuse and child abuse.

dlofnep

I know alot of people who have committed suicide. It should certainly be discussed. I can only imagine the pain someone must be in to want to end their life.

Rabies

In the open.
How else are people supposed to help those that need it and notice the signs.

bada_bing

nipplenuts wrote: »

Nah, it should be swept under the carpet along with sexual abuse and child abuse.

and so we have a vicious circle that continues because of attitudes like that. i can't beleive you think child and sexual abuse should be swept under the carpet. Are you a member of the catholic church or what??

El Siglo

Good thread, you'll provoke a lot of discussion.

El Siglo

bada_bing wrote: »

and so we have a vicious circle that continues because of attitudes like that. i can't beleive you think child and sexual abuse should be swept under the carpet. Are you a member of the catholic church or what??

No it's sarcasm, nobody could be that cruel...

Rabies

bada_bing wrote: »

and so we have a vicious circle that continues because of attitudes like that. i can't beleive you think child and sexual abuse should be swept under the carpet. Are you a member of the catholic church or what??

That wasn't the aim of their statement. I think he really meant its best to bring it out in the open

Elessar

Of course. But when it is, in my experience, there is no shortage of people (particularly middle-aged generation) that laugh out loud when they hear of someone killing themselves. They are laughing at that person's failure. It's disgusting.

AnonoBoy

bada_bing wrote: »

and so we have a vicious circle that continues because of attitudes like that. i can't beleive you think child and sexual abuse should be swept under the carpet. Are you a member of the catholic church or what??

I think you misread his comment. He meant it sarcastically, meaning that in Ireland things like this have always been swept under the carpet.

Of course nobody believes that they should be (except the Church) so the poster was really saying that he thinks it should be discussed in the open.

Euro_Kraut

Elessar wrote: »

Of course. But when it is, in my experience, there is no shortage of people (particularly middle-aged generation) that laugh out loud when they hear of someone killing themselves. They are laughing at that person's failure. It's disgusting.

I have never witnessed that.

Rabies

Elessar wrote: »

Of course. But when it is, in my experience, there is no shortage of people (particularly middle-aged generation) that laugh out loud when they hear of someone killing themselves. They are laughing at that person's failure. It's disgusting.

Its their reaction to something that doesn't effect them or their family/friends personally.
The won't be true it was on their door step.

Human nature to laugh and look down at other people's misfortunes and downfalls.

Pighead

Rabies wrote: »

Human nature to laugh and look down at other people's misfortunes and downfalls.

Pighead believes that the official term for the above is "Muntzism"

My name is URL

This country is still backwards when it comes to matters of mental-health.

The stigma attached to suicide etc is our problem, not just the media's.

Look at all the press that road deaths receive and how people talk about prevention so much.. suicide is even more preventable than that, and it rarely gets discussed

Capt'n Midnight

Here we go again


It's a permenant solution to a termporary problem.

Many people who survive suicide attempts regret trying it.

Like the guy I saw getting his tomach pumped in Blanch after taking a load of pills while drunk.

Daroxtar

Maybe if people were fully convinced that there was no God and no afterlife they wouldn't be as ready to kill themselves. It's possible that a lot of people think that if they commit suicide then what comes next will be better but if nothing comes next then their death is final in a way that only death can be and suicide has only ended their life,not given them a new pain free one. Would there be as many suicide bombers if there was no promise of a horde of virgins and the glories of heaven?

Snakeblood

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I have never witnessed that.

I've seen that reaction (not to the extent of laughter), but some people take suicide as weakness, or cowardice, and talk about it as such. They don't seem to have any empathy for the people who feel that they have no other option.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

When I heard and saw the 'skirt-around-the-edges' reporting this morning, I instantly thought overdose.

Having things off limits for discussion is a silly idea as it leads to people drawing incorrect conclusions.

blinding

I wonder is it because victims of suicide are very often young men.

Our society is not really interested in the problems of young men.(or men for that matter) Men are expected to deal with their problems and get on with it.

If for whatever reason a man is not able to deal with his problems where is he to turn. Over a period of time and desperation I can understand the journey to where suicide is an option.

tomcollins97

dlofnep wrote: »

I know alot of people who have committed suicide. It should certainly be discussed. I can only imagine the pain someone must be in to want to end their life.

"A lot" - numbers please. To me this statement is like "I know a lot of disabled/homosexual/dying etc etc people"

Snakeblood

Sean_K wrote: »

When I heard and saw the 'skirt-around-the-edges' reporting this morning, I instantly thought overdose.

Having things off limits for discussion is a silly idea as it leads to people drawing incorrect conclusions.

Same here.

If they said he was found hanged, and then had people commenting, like the Samaritans, it might help people who are in similar straits get the help they need. Sweeping suicide under the carpet isn't the way to go.

AckwelFoley

Some circles of the media portrayed Daz as over confident and cocky.

With a few brief comments over and back i had with the chap onlne i found the guy to be rather humble. I really really have a sickening feeling inside me over this one, because i was paying partivular attention to his boxing carrear, and i was certain that it was only a matter of time before he was a world champion.

I do know how the guy felt, i know the torture, all i can say is i hope you rest well Daz. RIP

My name is URL

tomcollins97 wrote: »

"A lot" - numbers please. To me this statement is like "I know a lot of disabled/homosexual/dying etc etc people"

That's a little insensitive. He's not drawing up a thesis ffs.

Snakeblood

blinding wrote: »

I wonder is it because victims of suicide are very often young men.

Our society is not really interested in the problems of young men.(or men for that matter) Men are expected to deal with their problems and get on with it.

If for whatever reason a man is not able to deal with his problems where is he to turn. Over a period of time and desperation I can understand the journey to where suicide is an option.

Aware were in town on Saturday, taking donations and building awareness(!) and the Samaritans are there too, if people feel they need someone to talk to about their problems.

I think it's a cultural issue among men that talking about problems is seen as a weakness, and it's best to bull on through. I can't see that not acknowledging the problem of suicide does anything but perpetuate the situation.

Mr. Incognito

I wonder is it because victims of suicide are very often young men.

This is actually a misconception if you read the statistics attached in the OP. While they are a higher proportion it's not by much.

Daroxtar

tomcollins97 wrote: »

"A lot" - numbers please. To me this statement is like "I know a lot of disabled/homosexual/dying etc etc people"

Why quantify? I can think of more than 20 in a few mile radius of where i'm from. Any more than zero is too much, so a lot is a lot, end of.

ejmaztec

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I have never witnessed that.

There was a case around these parts a few years ago, where some middle-aged guy killed himself, leaving a widow and two sons. At the cemetery, the two sons turned the air blue, hurling abuse at their late father's grave, and accusing him of chickening out and abandoning them and their mother.

The other mourners didn't know what the hell to say or do.

IvyTheTerrible

ejmaztec wrote: »

There was a case around these parts a few years ago, where some middle-aged guy killed himself, leaving a widow and two sons. At the cemetery, the two sons turned the air blue, hurling abuse at their late father's grave, and accusing him of chickening out and abandoning them and their mother.

The other mourners didn't know what the hell to say or do.

God. They say anger is part of the grieving process, particularly for suicides. Thankfully no-one went mad at my brothers funeral though.

faceman

In Ireland each year, more people commit suicide than are killed on the roads yet the focus is more on road safety.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I had been writing an article on suicide and then Darren Sutherland was found dead in his apartment, the English media are reporting he hung himself. I'm reproducing the article here. I was unsure whether to post in Humanities or not but AH gives a wide spectrum of opinion so if the mods here want to move it feel free.

Not on boards it'd seem anyway. A thread posted here about Sutherland was closed and people were directed to a thread in the Boxing forum and that is a "thread for condolences" with "RIP" posts and people getting upset if there's any discussion about the circumstances surrounding the death.

panda100

Suicide should definately be discussed openly in my opinion.

I have been to two funerals of friends who we all know committed suicide but it was never really talked about or discussed. People need to speak about their feelings more, particularly Irish men. We have to start really questioning why so many young people despair at life that they see death as a better option?