The Metal Detecting Debate. Keep all your MD questions and querys here!

slowburner · 09-05-2012 7:21pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I think the law says it's legal as long as you aren't MDing for arch. objects, so in theory you'd have to prove you weren't searching for arch. objects which is impossible?

Yes.

Fighting Irish · 09-05-2012 7:31pm

slowburner wrote: »

Yes.

But then in court it would have to be proven you were searching for arch. objects so....

Stay away from known sites, anything you do find that may be an arch. object report to NM, don't trespass, and leave everything like you found it

slowburner · 09-05-2012 7:44pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

But then in court it would have to be proven you were searching for arch. objects so....

Stay away from known sites, anything you do find that may be an arch. object report to NM, don't trespass, and leave everything like you found it

Not quite.
The onus is on the accused to prove that he/she was not searching for archaeological objects.
As mentioned previously, a coin lost this morning could be an archaeological object.

Gee Bag · 09-05-2012 7:55pm

kajo wrote: »

Ok lets keep it real simple just so all the people who read this understand.
Its legal to own a metal detector and use a metal detector anyplace in Ireland providing you abide by a few rules such as not to detect near a monument- archaeological site or use your metal detector to find archaeological objects.
Do we all agree on that or not?

You appear to be the one who doesn't get it,

Metal Detecting to look for archaeological objects in Ireland is illegal without an archaeological excavation licence.

The sale of metal detectors in Ireland for use in searching for archaeological objects is illegal.

There are no if's or but's. There is no grey area with regard to this issue.

National Monuments Act 1987 Section 2

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/...rint.html#sec2

2.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section a person shall not—

(a) use or be in possession of a detection device—

(i) in, or at the site of, a monument of which the Commissioners or a local authority are the owners or guardians or in respect of which a preservation order is in force or which stands registered in the Register, or

(ii) in an archaeological area that stands registered in the Register, or

(iii) in a restricted area,

or

(b) use, at a place other than a place specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, a detection device for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects, or

(c) promote, whether by advertising or otherwise, the sale or use of detection devices for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.

Ireland is not the only country that has this policy re. metal detectors
http://www.ncmd.co.uk/law.html

kajo · 10-05-2012 3:06am

slowburner wrote: »

Not quite.
The onus is on the accused to prove that he/she was not searching for archaeological objects.
As mentioned previously, a coin lost this morning could be an archaeological object.

Where does it say that? load of rubbish!
If you are not on an archaeological site nobody can do anything to you or take your detector.
Why are you trying to scare people? you know as well as i do its legal to own a metal detector sell one or use one within in the law.
If you stay away from archaeological sites and dont hunt for archaeological objects you have nothing to worry about its all legal.
I have seen the letter from the minister so you can take it from me stick with the above you will be fine.
I think metal detector hobbyists are all happy to work within the law and want no favour from anybody and have no issue with current law.
If you want to hunt / detect on private land that is not a problem as long as it is not an archaeological site and you are not looking for archaeological objects and the most important thing ... you have Primisson from the land owner.

slowburner · 10-05-2012 9:09am

Please explain what you and your friends search for - if not searching for objects of archaeological interest.

Fighting Irish · 10-05-2012 1:57pm

slowburner wrote: »

Please explain what you and your friends search for - if not searching for objects of archaeological interest.

I'm searching for a ring i lost somewhere in Ireland

Gee Bag · 10-05-2012 5:29pm

kajo wrote: »

Where does it say that? load of rubbish!
If you are not on an archaeological site nobody can do anything to you or take your detector.
Why are you trying to scare people? you know as well as i do its legal to own a metal detector sell one or use one within in the law.
If you stay away from archaeological sites and dont hunt for archaeological objects you have nothing to worry about its all legal.
I have seen the letter from the minister so you can take it from me stick with the above you will be fine.
I think metal detector hobbyists are all happy to work within the law and want no favour from anybody and have no issue with current law.
If you want to hunt / detect on private land that is not a problem as long as it is not an archaeological site and you are not looking for archaeological objects and the most important thing ... you have Primisson from the land owner.

Absolute Rubbish from start to finish.

Yet again I am posting the relevant legislation. You should probably consider reading this at some stage.

National Monuments Act 1987 Section 2

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/...rint.html#sec2

2.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section a person shall not—

(a) use or be in possession of a detection device—

(i) in, or at the site of, a monument of which the Commissioners or a local authority are the owners or guardians or in respect of which a preservation order is in force or which stands registered in the Register, or

(ii) in an archaeological area that stands registered in the Register, or

(iii) in a restricted area,

or

(b) use, at a place other than a place specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, a detection device for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects, or

(c) promote, whether by advertising or otherwise, the sale or use of detection devices for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.

Now for the rest of your drivel.

Where does it say that? load of rubbish!

Slowburner is correct. It doesn't have to be explicitly stated. The burden of proof in such cases lies with the defendant i.e. The defendant has to prove they were not looking for archaeological objects.

you know as well as i do its legal to own a metal detector sell one or use one within in the law.

Partially correct. It is not illegal to own metal detectors. It is however, illegal to use them to search for archaeological objects without an archaeological excavation licence issued by the National Monuments Service of the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. This is crystal clear in the section of the 1987 act quoted above.

If you stay away from archaeological sites and dont hunt for archaeological objects you have nothing to worry about its all legal.

If you want to hunt / detect on private land that is not a problem as long as it is not an archaeological site and you are not looking for archaeological objects and the most important thing ... you have Primisson from the land owner

Both statements are utter nonsense. I quote section 2.b from the 1987 act

"use, at a place other than a place specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, a detection device for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects"

This means using a metal detector anywhere in the Republic of Irelandto look for archaeological objects.

Whether or not you are on private land is irrelevant. Its the same principle as for any criminal offence. You can't commit murder/rape/arson/theft etc. and then expect to get off because you claim that the landowner said it was O.K. by him.

you can take it from me stick with the above you will be fine.

Eh, your a taxi driver. Your capacity to give advice on this issue is non-existent.

At this stage you should probably note section 2.c of the 1987 act.

(c) promote, whether by advertising or otherwise, the sale or use of detection devices for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.

Looks to me like your already in breach of the act by promoting the illegal use of metal detectors.

I await your reply with bated breath.

kajo · 10-05-2012 7:00pm

slowburner wrote: »

Please explain what you and your friends search for - if not searching for objects of archaeological interest.

I search for objects but not objects of archaeological interest hope that answers your question.

Gee Bag · 10-05-2012 7:32pm

kajo wrote: »

I search for objects but not objects of archaeological interest hope that answers your question.

Bullsh1t.

why the fcuk do you keep posting in the archaeology forum?

Maudi · 10-05-2012 10:50pm

Gee Bag wrote: »

kajo wrote: »

I search for objects but not objects of archaeological interest hope that answers your question.

Bullsh1t.

why the fcuk do you keep posting in the archaeology forum?

gee bag gee bag gee bag...tut tut tut...did your mother ever wash your mouth out with soap!!!eh the language and aggressive tone son...take it down a peg....maybe the guy was ....innocently....looking for meteorites....did you ever consider that? shucks..lots of those are lying around waiting to be found by meteor detectorists..or...does one need a licence?anyhoo...lets keep it civil.

Gee Bag · 10-05-2012 11:07pm

Maudi wrote: »

gee bag gee bag gee bag...tut tut tut...did your mother ever wash your mouth out with soap!!!eh the language and aggressive tone son...take it down a peg....maybe the guy was ....innocently....looking for meteorites....did you ever consider that? shucks..lots of those are lying around waiting to be found by meteor detectorists..or...does one need a licence?anyhoo...lets keep it civil.

Point taken Maudi,

The question remains as to why Kajo has posted repeatedley in this thread only to suddenly say he is not looking for archaeological objects

kajo · 11-05-2012 12:52pm

No worry Maudi I don't respond to people who act like their user name even when that user name tells me more than i want to know about the person.
I am sure people can judge the consistency in my posts regarding not searching for objects of archaeological interest.
Did anybody notice at the top of this forum where it says and i quote:

The Metal Detecting Debate. Keep all your MD questions and querys here!

Some people like to go into rambling arguments that lack any consistency and little in the way of truth and no understanding of the law.
If you contact the national museum of ireland you get the same old line quoted selected section of the law that they take out of context and the spirit of the law.

Gee Bag · 12-05-2012 6:11pm

kajo wrote: »

No worry Maudi I don't respond to people who act like their user name even when that user name tells me more than i want to know about the person.
I am sure people can judge the consistency in my posts regarding not searching for objects of archaeological interest.
Did anybody notice at the top of this forum where it says and i quote:

Some people like to go into rambling arguments that lack any consistency and little in the way of truth and no understanding of the law.
If you contact the national museum of ireland you get the same old line quoted selected section of the law that they take out of context and the spirit of the law.

Aw, did I hurt your feelings?

The 1987 National Monument Act specifically bans metal detecting. it is very clear and unambigous.

They don't appear to like people asking questions without full knowledge of who you are and why you want the information.
I take exception to anybody who would interfere with my legal right to enjoy my hobby.

If your not looking for archaeological objects then why are you posting in the archaeology forum and why are you ringing the National Museum anonymously to find out how much they might pay out for objects?

kajo · 13-05-2012 3:21pm

No my feelings are fine thanks for asking

How you interpret the law means nothing and is unimportant.

I never phoned the National Museum anonymously or otherwise.

Now we can see you don't read too well and we know you are rude, crude, and obnoxious.

Why the hell would you think people would value how you interpret the act/ law?

Lastly for the umpteen time as long as people do not search for archaeological objects or detect around / near National Monuments they will not be breaking any laws.

If by some chance people do find anything they think maybe of archaeological interest contact the National Museum within 96 hours.

Now how hard is that for you to understand?

slowburner · 13-05-2012 8:44pm

A citizen of the state cannot interpret an existing law.
You abide by the law, or you break it. That's all there is to it.

For example:

Judge- "Do you have anything to say for yourself?"

Plaintiff- "Yes Judge, I was driving at 100 mph and I had 15 pints before I got in to drive my taxi. Wrote off a few cars on the way. So what? I had a great time."

Judge- "Then you clearly have a total disregard for the laws and property of this land.
I sentence you to 5 years in prison, and ban you from driving for life."

Plaintiff- "But that's not how I interpret the law.
I believe I have a right to drive at 100 mph and drink 15 pints beforehand, and it doesn't matter how much damage I cause if I'm having a good time.
That's what it's all about - if I'm having a good time, it doesn't matter how much damage is caused.
Judge, you've misinterpreted the law. My interpretation is right."

Judge- "Fair enough then. Off you go. Sorry for bothering you. Don't forget your license."

_______________________________________________________
An unlikely verdict.
Eo ipso, the defence of the case for metal detecting.

Mountainsandh · 13-05-2012 9:16pm

The French law uses practically the same wording afaik, and yes it is considered to be ambiguous, and yes it leaves room for some legal metal detecting from enthusiasts.
For example, metal detecting in a field/parc after an event like a concert or a festival, or in this grey area that is, if you are not looking for archeological, historical, or artistic artefacts.

For archeological artefacts, only archeologists/qualified people may apply for a special authorization from the local council of the area.

Some zones are practically a no go area of course, be it for archeological or other metal detecting, because of the 2 wars.

Judge : You were caught metal detecting and had your gear confiscated, and now have to pay a fine, do you have anything to say in your defence ? Why are you appealing ?
Defendant : Well actually, the law states" for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects", but I was just looking for my engagement ring I lost last week at the agricultural show, and the farmer kindly agreed to let me in the field. Oh, and the field is nowhere near a section a) place.

Mountainsandh · 13-05-2012 9:42pm

Having said that it does seem suspicious for someone to defend such legal use of metal detectors in an archeological forum.

Fighting Irish · 13-05-2012 9:49pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Having said that it does seem suspicious for someone to defend such legal use of metal detectors in an archeological forum.

If you start a thread anywhere else on boards about mding, it is locked!

kajo · 13-05-2012 10:54pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Having said that it does seem suspicious for someone to defend such legal use of metal detectors in an archeological forum.

I don't understand what you mean when you say suspicious what would anybody be suspicious of?

I am just making it clear regardless of what archaeologists think about people who use metal detectors its not against the law.

I have the right to enjoy this hobby just like any other hobby as long as it is within the law.

I fail to understand why archaeologists would continuously attack another group of law-abiding citizens.

The letter received from the relevant minister regarding metal detecting makes it quite clear that his office does not have a problem with metal detecting within the law.

This letter was mentioned in a radio interview that can be found online (youtube) under a search for Metal Detecting Ireland.

If i was an archaeologist i would want to know before i pass judgement on people that i am sure of my facts.

I would also like to think i am smart enough to stop generalizing about what others may or may not do when they engage in their hobby.

kajo · 13-05-2012 11:06pm

slowburner wrote: »

A citizen of the state cannot interpret an existing law.
You abide by the law, or you break it. That's all there is to it.

For example:

Judge- "Do you have anything to say for yourself?"

Plaintiff- "Yes Judge, I was driving at 100 mph and I had 15 pints before I got in to drive my taxi. Wrote off a few cars on the way. So what? I had a great time."

Judge- "Then you clearly have a total disregard for the laws and property of this land.
I sentence you to 5 years in prison, and ban you from driving for life."

Plaintiff- "But that's not how I interpret the law.
I believe I have a right to drive at 100 mph and drink 15 pints beforehand, and it doesn't matter how much damage I cause if I'm having a good time.
That's what it's all about - if I'm having a good time, it doesn't matter how much damage is caused.
Judge, you've misinterpreted the law. My interpretation is right."

Judge- "Fair enough then. Off you go. Sorry for bothering you. Don't forget your license."

_______________________________________________________
An unlikely verdict.
Eo ipso, the defence of the case for metal detecting.

I have no dispute about the law in this matter its clear to me.

So i take it you also agree to MD within the law is fine.

Maudi · 13-05-2012 11:20pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Having said that it does seem suspicious for someone to defend such legal use of metal detectors in an archeological forum.

If you start a thread anywhere else on boards about mding, it is locked!

c'mon now ..using a comparsion like drinking and driving to compare against hobby metal detecting is very very wrong..its a growing hobby epecially among young people...i dont think even a judge would approve of that comparison slowburner...time team tonight showed the way towards a proper community based approach to archaeology..and they have no problem with amateurs participating...would you prefer if ordinary people Stay Away from the countryside altogether just in Case they might find some lost metal objects...the majority of land is or was ploughed so etal bits and bobs have been tossed around by ploughs for years...that pretty much does away with 'context' anyway archaeology is so much more than metal objects...its landscape.earth.pottery.stones bones buildings.flint..mounds..etc..these provide Context aswell...can the mdrs not post in a hobby forum rather than here...

Gee Bag · 14-05-2012 9:28am

kajo wrote: »

No my feelings are fine thanks for asking

How you interpret the law means nothing and is unimportant.

I never phoned the National Museum anonymously or otherwise.

Now we can see you don't read too well and we know you are rude, crude, and obnoxious.

Why the hell would you think people would value how you interpret the act/ law?

Lastly for the umpteen time as long as people do not search for archaeological objects or detect around / near National Monuments they will not be breaking any laws.

If by some chance people do find anything they think maybe of archaeological interest contact the National Museum within 96 hours.

Now how hard is that for you to understand?

In this thread I think I have only been "rude, crude and obnoxious" to you. Why? Well you started it with your repeated insulting of the integrity of my chosen profession.

Some examples

They spew the same quote out in their letters their way of keeping the metal detecting hobbyists scared and it works.
Their methods are crude and deceitful but effective just look around the internet and you can see the results.

A lot archaeologists are trying to maintain their own play ground a bit like the monkey with his hand in the jar.
I dont trust archaeologists or their so called students / helpers and i would not be surprised if this was one of the backdoors to the black market / ebay.

I have yet to see any archaeologists refuse a photo opportunity in the media for something they did not find... glory hunters.

Maybe you should take a read of this and see just how much our archaeologists care about our history.

A lot of people would see archaeologists as nothing more than grave robbers

And the best of the lot, this idiotic post about about archaeologists not knowing/caring about the famine

Its only because of the taxi driver that people are now aware that millions were forgotten.

How do I know metal detecting is illegal anywhere in the republic without a licence? Brcause I have been working as an archaeologist for 15 years and I have to know the National Monuments Acts inside out.

The exact section of the law has been posted here repeatedly. It is crystal clear. You can not detect for archaeological artefacts anywhere in the Republic without a licence.

The law is not a matter of interpretation. It is a matter of fact.

slowburner · 14-05-2012 9:34am

Maudi wrote: »

c'mon now ..using a comparsion like drinking and driving to compare against hobby metal detecting is very very wrong..

No. The principles are exactly the same. You abide by the law, or you break it.

its a growing hobby epecially among young people...i dont think even a judge would approve of that comparison slowburner...time team tonight showed the way towards a proper community based approach to archaeology..and they have no problem with amateurs participating...would you prefer if ordinary people Stay Away from the countryside altogether just in Case they might find some lost metal objects...

It's wonderful that that ordinary people should enjoy the countryside. There are a myriad of ways to do it without using a metal detector and digging holes wherever there is a beep.

the majority of land is or was ploughed so etal bits and bobs have been tossed around by ploughs for years...that pretty much does away with 'context' anyway archaeology is so much more than metal objects...its landscape.earth.pottery.stones bones buildings.flint..mounds..etc..these provide Context aswell...can the mdrs not post in a hobby forum rather than here...

You mention various contexts in the same sentence as using a metal detector. This clearly implies your intention to search for archaeological objects within those contexts.

Just recently, I talked to an archaeologist who was surveying a rare and extensive site (at his own expense). Everywhere he paused to investigate, he found that later, an individual or group of metal detectorists had come along and dug holes into those very places.
So rather than risk being followed and showing these people where they were likely to get 'hits', he decided to abandon the survey.

That to me is simply disgusting.
Any knowledge that might have been gleaned from the site is now lost.
But the metal detectorists probably have a load of isolated, meaningless artefacts on their mantlepieces, or on their way to ebay.

kajo · 14-05-2012 12:33pm

How do I know metal detecting is illegal anywhere in the republic without a licence? Brcause I have been working as an archaeologist for 15 years and I have to know the National Monuments Acts inside out.

The exact section of the law has been posted here repeatedly. It is crystal clear. You can not detect for archaeological artefacts anywhere in the Republic without a licence.

The law is not a matter of interpretation. It is a matter of fact.

You can not detect for archaeological artefacts anywhere in the Republic without a licence

The same old line yet again so can we stick to that one line?

AT NO POINT DID I SAY IT WAS LEGAL TO DETECT FOR ARCHAEOLOGICAL OBJECTS

BUT IT IS LEGAL TO SEARCH WITH A METAL DETECTOR IF YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR ARCHAEOLOGICAL OBJECTS

As for the rest of your quoted text i stand by all i have said and can add it would worry me that you are an archaeologist.
I can only hope you know more about archaeology than you do about the law.

Archaeologists continue to play with the wording of the law for their own gains.
It changes nothing and wins you lot no friends stop using the words searching for archaeological objects and your whole argument falls flat.

Gee Bag · 14-05-2012 1:17pm

kajo wrote: »

Archaeologists continue to play with the wording of the law for their own gains.

Eh, despiite what you seem to think we don't go around digging up treasure to sell. Any archaeological object found in Ireland is owned by the state. IF I find a crappy piece of broken pottery or a golden crown encrusted with jewels I don't get extra money for it.

The National Museum occasionaly do give payments to members of the public for reporting archaeological objects. These are usually for the likes of Bog bodies or the psalter a few years back. They do not give payments for objects that they believe to have been found by MDers.

Question remains, if your not loooking for archaeological objects then why are you posting in a thread about metal detecting in an archaeology forum?

Gee Bag · 14-05-2012 1:24pm

kajo wrote: »

it would worry me that you are an archaeologist.

...........and it worries me that you drive around members of the public

Riamfada · 14-05-2012 2:18pm

This thread has been going around in circles for months. It takes a lull for a bit and then there is a new MD find and it kicks off again.

The only reason I have left this open is as a one stop shop for this issue rather than this sparking off any the same arguement over multiple threads time anyone posts anything found as a result of metal detecting.

If people in the future want to create new threads about UK finds I will not have it turn into another go about hobbysits v archaeologists and the thread will be locked. Ill update the forum rules to refelct this.

If people want to post up info on new finds then grand, the method of the find will no longer be a topic for discussion. Stick to the find itself.

Best
R

Fighting Irish · 14-05-2012 2:44pm

Riamfada wrote: »

This thread has been going around in circles for months. It takes a lull for a bit and then there is a new MD find and it kicks off again.

The only reason I have left this open is as a one stop shop for this issue rather than this sparking off any the same arguement over multiple threads time anyone posts anything found as a result of metal detecting.

If people in the future want to create new threads about UK finds I will not have it turn into another go about hobbysits v archaeologists and the thread will be locked. Ill update the forum rules to refelct this.

If people want to post up info on new finds then grand, the method of the find will no longer be a topic for discussion. Stick to the find itself.

Best
R

Is it hurting anyone? 99% of stuff on boards.ie has been discussed before!

Riamfada · 14-05-2012 3:01pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Is it hurting anyone? 99% of stuff on boards.ie has been discussed before!

It hurts my brain

The Metal Detecting Debate. Keep all your MD questions and querys here!

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