Are Upright Rows Really That Bad?

NFH

I do full body workouts and for the shoulders I love the shoulder press but dont really like any of the raises cause ya cant really pack on much weight and they arent very compound exercises (maybe Im wrong there). I like the upright rows but dont do them as they have a rep of being harmful. I saw this vid and just wonder what people think. I used to do close grip rows and was told they are the bad ones but maybe a wider grip is ok?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa7IHCWaCxQ

itsallaboutheL

NFH wrote: »

I do full body workouts and for the shoulders I love the shoulder press but dont really like any of the raises cause ya cant really pack on much weight and they arent very compound exercises (maybe Im wrong there). I like the upright rows but dont do them as they have a rep of being harmful. I saw this vid and just wonder what people think. I used to do close grip rows and was told they are the bad ones but maybe a wider grip is ok?

It depends on you're own physiology, but it has been known to lead to shoulder impingement and rotator cuff problems.

Depends on the person, there's a lpt of different alternatives

NFH

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

It depends on you're own physiology, but it has been known to lead to shoulder impingement and rotator cuff problems.

Depends on the person, there's a lpt of different alternatives

Well could ya give me a really good one, one that can replace the shoulder press in every other session, preferably with the barbell and that accents my features well and I want it in black

itsallaboutheL

Shrugs (and shrug variations)
Lateral Raises (and other raise variations)
Seated Press instead of standing (and/or DB press)


Why are you replacing the shoulder press every other session:?
What is your program like?

NFH

Cheers for that, forgot about shrugs.

My program is full body one and I do a shoulder exercise in each session and dont want to always be doin shoulder press.

Any of those moves i.e. front raises, lat raises, upright rows or their various versions such as bent over rows etc should be avoided if you have pain in your shoulder/rotator cuff.

More importantly, there are better exercises out there for your shoulders.

Clean and press being my favourite

You could do pull ups, barbell presses, snatches any of the compound moves for the shoulder.

Check out exrx.net

itsallaboutheL

Deleted User wrote: »

More importantly, there are better exercises out there for your shoulders.

Clean and press being my favourite

You could do pull ups, barbell presses, snatches any of the compound moves for the shoulder.

Check out exrx.net

Pull Ups, Snatches and Cleans as a main shoulder exercise???

They certainly recruit the shoulders in a secondary capacity but shouldn't be the staple of your shoulder program if your main goal is hypertrophy or shoulder strength.

NFH

Deleted User wrote: »

Any of those moves i.e. front raises, lat raises, upright rows or their various versions such as bent over rows etc should be avoided if you have pain in your shoulder/rotator cuff.

More importantly, there are better exercises out there for your shoulders.

Clean and press being my favourite

You could do pull ups, barbell presses, snatches any of the compound moves for the shoulder.

Check out exrx.net

Ah come on, dont tell me bent over rows are bad too? Here's a list of the exercises I do in my full body workouts, this is just a total list, not my actual routine, can ye tell me if any of these are bad or should be avoided and if so what would you replace them with -

(all with barball)
squat
deadlift
flat bench press
incline bench press
bent over rows
pendlay rows
shoulder press
shrugs (gonna start doin them)
bicep curls
close grip flat bench press

Also, which of these require a belt, my lifts are getting heavier and I think I should start using one.

Cheers for any advice.

Roper

No they're all grand. Instead of a belt, get stronger abs and lower back.

As for bent over rows, they're grand except for the fact that some people's form is dreadful. With the row you should have good posture and be squeezing with the back not pulling with the arms and shoulders to get the touch on your chest. Walk into a gym tomorrow and you'll see some guy with ridiculous weight on a bar with a hunched back rowing up to his neck. That's what causes the shoulder problems, not the exercise itself.

Word.

NFH

Cheers. Also, about the shrugs. I'm gonna be new to them and will be usin the barbell I think. What kinda weight should I be doin? I would be doin them after my deadlift probably. I was thinkin maybe 20% lower than that?

itsallaboutheL

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Pull Ups, Snatches and Cleans as a main shoulder exercise???

They certainly recruit the shoulders in a secondary capacity but shouldn't be the staple of your shoulder program if your main goal is hypertrophy or shoulder strength.

When is the shoulder ever used in an isolated movement ?

If you're into sports and using your body as a whole i.e. the way it's meant to, you lift compound.

Isolated is great mainly for bodybuilders who want to perfect every single muscle in perfect proportion.

By the way, can you back up how isolated shoulder movement increase strength or hypertrophy more so than compound movements ?

Judging by again what you see in the locker rooms of gyms in Ireland, nobody or very few people should be doing isolated shoulder movements. The same people who focus on isolated shoulder movements to get stronger are the same people who invariably have rotator cuff issues and have probably never exercised their rotator cuff specifically in their life.

So let me get this straight, judging by what you just said, you shouldn't do compound shoulder movements if your main goal is hypertrophy or strength ? ? ? So what exactly are they for then L ?

Why bother doing lat raises when you can do pull ups ?

Compound are far better than isolated unless you're rehabing an injury etc

itsallaboutheL

Deleted User wrote: »

When is the shoulder ever used in an isolated movement ?

If you're into sports and using your body as a whole i.e. the way it's meant to, you lift compound.

Isolated is great mainly for bodybuilders who want to perfect every single muscle in perfect proportion.

By the way, can you back up how isolated shoulder movement increase strength or hypertrophy more so than compound movements ?

Judging by again what you see in the locker rooms of gyms in Ireland, nobody or very few people should be doing isolated shoulder movements. The same people who focus on isolated shoulder movements to get stronger are the same people who invariably have rotator cuff issues and have probably never exercised their rotator cuff specifically in their life.

So let me get this straight, judging by what you just said, you shouldn't do compound shoulder movements if your main goal is hypertrophy or strength ? ? ? So what exactly are they for then L ?

Why bother doing lat raises when you can do pull ups ?

Compound are far better than isolated unless you're rehabing an injury etc

Cleans and Snatches are NOT compound shoulder movements, and if you think they are then you're doing them wrong, they are an explosive lower body exercise which use the traps and upper back in a stabilisation capacity.

If you think doing snatches are going to lead to bigger shoulders for someone like OP than Presses, DB Presses, MPs, Lat Raises etc then you are clearly mental.


Also if you think your shoulders are the primary muscle targeted it Pull-Ups then i'm just ending this conversation right now.

EDIT: would you please quote the part where i said isolated anyway? i appear to be going blind

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

By the way, can you back up how isolated shoulder movement increase strength or hypertrophy more so than compound movements ?

Who or what are you arguing here and why.

Judging by again what you see in the locker rooms of gyms in Ireland, nobody or very few people should be doing isolated shoulder movements. The same people who focus on isolated shoulder movements to get stronger are the same people who invariably have rotator cuff issues and have probably never exercised their rotator cuff specifically in their life.

I'd much prefer to see proof of your supernatural ability to judge how many people you see in locker rooms develop rotator cuff injuries.

Compound are far better than isolated unless you're rehabing an injury etc

A programme with just compund exercises would not address weaknesses.

Oh for Gods sake.

Everyone knows compound movements are what primarily makes you stronger and are generallly better for you overall than isolated movements. I'm not trying to be a know it all. That's a fact.

I mention Isolated, not you L, in an example to prove that no human being ever exclusively uses their shoulder ON ITS OWN proving why compound exercises are more efficient overall.

This is why I was recommending the OP do so. I didn't mention hypertrophy or strength - you did L. Naturally, the OP will get stronger and bigger from doing compound movements more so than any individual isolated exercises.

My point to the OP was that I think he should focus primarily on compound movements because I assume he wants to get bigger and/or stronger. Form follows function so if he nails compound lifts - he will get stronger and bigger providing he eats right. Point in case, the lad down the gym who can do lat raises with 50KG dumbbells WILL NOT have bigger shoulders than the guy who is doing weighted pull ups - just doesn't happen. All the guys I've ever seen who have big shoulders and had to work to get them as opposed to just genetically having big shoulders lift compound.

By the way L, your point on pull ups not targetting shoulders - if you want big strong shoulders, you do pull ups, you need a strong back and chest to compliment the overall package.

If you think doing snatches are going to lead to bigger shoulders for someone like OP than Presses, DB Presses, MPs, Lat Raises etc then you are clearly mental.

I said compound movements will make the OP bigger and stronger overall. I never said don't do presses, in fact, I recommended he do clean and presses in my previous post.

Lat raises, front raises, bent over barbell rows etc are from what I've been told, and experienced not on the same level as clean and press, overhead presses etc. I've never had a shoulder cuff issue either so I didn't use incorrect form.

The OP also said he was looking for compound movements in his first post and wanted to ditch raises and rightly so - they are the main cause of injury for shoulder cuff problems whether it be due to bad form or not, I don't know.

But how exactly are front raises, lateral raises, upright rows et al natural movements or going to make you stronger overall ?

Roper

Roper wrote: »

Who or what are you arguing here and why.

I'd much prefer to see proof of your supernatural ability to judge how many people you see in locker rooms develop rotator cuff injuries.

A programme with just compund exercises would not address weaknesses.

Ah the superhero from Informed Performance Gym (you should trademark that name, I might rob it)

You want to see proof my supernatural ability to judge how many people I see in locker rooms develop rotator cuff injuries ?

Well ok I'll tell you then. Some time last year, I was finishing up in college and was considering going down the Physical Therapy route/or Physiotherapy one or the other - and I went and spoke to people who actually work as Physios or Physical Therapists and spoke to them to help me make a decision. Can you believe it Roper ?

And when talking to these professionals, I naturally discussed why I wanted to get into the field, my passion for the gym and sports in general and ended up having a conversation about isolated movements, rotator cuff injuries etc etc - Amazing isn't it ? And from what they told me, you know, experts who know anatomy better than you or I right Roper ? They told me that a very common cause of rotator cuff injuries was front raises and those other mickey mouse exercises like lat raises and upright rows etc. Pretty cool eh ? I was grateful I had ditched them after my first year involved in weight lifting.

So I went down the gym that evening, watched the SCT and junior rugby lads train and was amazed to see them spending hours doing silly little bicep curls or front raises and I said to myself "How is that meant to make them better at rugby ? or make them stronger overall as an athlete ?" and it didn't make sense. And then I also observed how most people don't warm up or cool down after a session and it HIT me - BANG right in my face. Just like that.

The experts I spoke to were right - people injure their shoulder cuff (and other areas of their body) from doing things incorrectly as you said, and by doing the wrong exercises for their purpose. This was the nail in the coffin for me and when I started moving into compound movements for sports performance and size.

So nothing to do with my supernatural ability Roper, more so to do with my overall intelligence as a human being to research a career before I get involved in it. You should know this though, you insulted me when I was on here enquiring about it last year. The big man from Informed Performance Gym insulting my aspirations. Kind of funny isn't it ?

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

Lat raises, front raises, bent over barbell rows etc are from what I've been told, and experienced not on the same level as clean and press, overhead presses etc. I've never had a shoulder cuff issue either so I didn't use incorrect form.

You've never had a shoulder problem ergo you used the correct form? Do you really think that everyone who does these exercises, even with poor form, gets a shoulder problem? You're going from A to Z there.

The OP also said he was looking for compound movements in his first post and wanted to ditch raises and rightly so - they are the main cause of injury for shoulder cuff problems whether it be due to bad form or not, I don't know.

Where are you getting that data? Do you have any statistical data to show that lateral raises are the main cause of rotator cuff injuries?

But how exactly are front raises, lateral raises, upright rows et al natural movements or going to make you stronger overall ?

I fvckin hate this term but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Raises and rows etc. are assistance exercises.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61865337&postcount=15

Hanley

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh for Gods sake.

I've never had a shoulder cuff issue either so I didn't use incorrect form.

Time to start digging up soon.

But how exactly are front raises, lateral raises, upright rows et al natural movements or going to make you stronger overall ?

How are they "unnatural"???? Where's the key hole to your front door at home? Mine's around shoulder height... care to guess how i get the key there?

People do them so their shoulders will look bigger anyway. Not necessarily to get stronger.

Hanley

Hanley wrote: »

Time to start digging up soon.




How are they "unnatural"???? Where's the key hole to your front door at home? Mine's around shoulder height... care to guess how i get the key there?

People do them so their shoulders will look bigger anyway. Not necessarily to get stronger.

My key weighs around 10 grams - not 50 KG.

It's a free country - people can do what they want.

Hanley

Deleted User wrote: »

My key weighs around 10 grams - not 50 KG.

It's a free country - people can do what they want.

Ya front raising 50kg these days? And you didn't make any reference to loading, you said the movement was unnatural.

No, not me. Haven't done front raises in around 3 years, couldn't do 50KG front raises either.

It is unnatural in my opinion and not very effective. Sure look at lat raises, how is that a natural movement ?

I work out to improve sports performance and keep healthy and because I love it - I don't do it solely for appearance. If people are getting stronger and reducing bodyfat they normally look good and don't need to do front raises anyway.

Boston

"My opinion differs to yours"
"O noes, I cannot TOLERATE it"
"Roflefcoptor ensues".

Why don't you all shut up instead of having a pissing contest.

puntosporting

To be fair there is not a lot of "natural" for pretty much all weight lifting excercises!
Deadlifts,squats and bench press for starters where do you throw those movements into your daily life?
I cant think of a single instance where i need to be flat on my back with my own bodyweight being held above my chest???
You could injure your rotator cuff opening a tin of beans with a can opener realy you could!
Injuries happen because the human body is not bulletproof do obviously good form will give you a better chance of not injuring yourself!
I firmly believe in trial and error when it comes to training some excercises realy do give better results for some !

I get what you're saying but everything you said there does have a useful, essential purpose for people.

Lying flat on your back benching for example may seem unnatural but it is used to develop your chest and it does it brilliantly - which in turn gives you better posture, balance, contributes to your core strength. Chest muscles are used in pretty much every single sport and every day in life.

Deadlift gives you power in your legs which can be used for numerous things. It does it excellently.

Same with squats, clean and presses etc. They all have a very useful purpose in everyday people and athletes - professional footballers mainly squat, deadlift, bench and less focus on isolated muscles - I know because my friends brother is a professional footballer over in England and he told me.

My point is not that the movements are solely unnatural - but there has to be a purpose for doing them also - a logical step in progression of doing x improves y. Front raises, lat raises, barbell rows - yeah they can help, but they are not the most efficient way for getting stronger or for encouraging "hypertrophy"

Look, I'm not an expert, I don't claim to be. I'm willing to learn and be efficient in everything I do both in and outside the gym. I listen to people who I can learn from and I work harder than anybody to apply that knowledge I learn to what I do.

NFH

Anyway......

Ok so before I leave it I want to make sure I'm doin the best exercise here. I do two different full body workouts and I do them every other session with a day rest between eash session. For each workout I do one upperbody pushing, lowerbody, upperbody pulling, shoulder and then as isolation on either the biceps or triceps. At the moment the workouts go like this-

(all barbell and pretty much all 5x5 but in the future I intend to keep changing rep and set ranges)

1 -
flat bench (upper pushing)
squat (lower)
bent over rows (upper pulling)
military press (shoulder)
bicep curls (isolation biceps)

2 -
incline bench (upper pushing)
deadlift (lower and upper)
another shoulder exercise
cable pulldowns (isolation triceps)


So now ya can see I am looking for another good shoulder exercise instead of using military press again and these below seem like the ones to choose from. I could do shrugs but I want to make sure I'm doin the best one to improve my shoulder strength and size.

Push Press
Upright Rows
Lateral Raises
External Rotations
Power Cleans
Shrugs

Which would ya do?

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah the superhero from Informed Performance Gym (you should trademark that name, I might rob it)

Nah keep it it's sh1t.

You want to see proof my supernatural ability to judge how many people I see in locker rooms develop rotator cuff injuries ?

Well ok I'll tell you then. Some time last year, I was finishing up in college and was considering going down the Physical Therapy route/or Physiotherapy one or the other - and I went and spoke to people who actually work as Physios or Physical Therapists and spoke to them to help me make a decision. Can you believe it Roper ?

Why are you narrating like Dickens?

And when talking to these professionals, I naturally discussed why I wanted to get into the field, my passion for the gym and sports in general and ended up having a conversation about isolated movements, rotator cuff injuries etc etc - Amazing isn't it ? And from what they told me, you know, experts who know anatomy better than you or I right Roper ? They told me that a very common cause of rotator cuff injuries was front raises and those other mickey mouse exercises like lat raises and upright rows etc. Pretty cool eh ? I was grateful I had ditched them after my first year involved in weight lifting.

So the answer is the reason you know how to diagnose rotator cuff injuries is because you had a chat with someone.

So nothing to do with my supernatural ability Roper, more so to do with my overall intelligence as a human being to research a career before I get involved in it. You should know this though, you insulted me when I was on here enquiring about it last year. The big man from Informed Performance Gym insulting my aspirations. Kind of funny isn't it ?

Maybe I'm used to better comedy or something but... no... it's not funny at all. I remember you now though you're the one who called me some names a while back. You even made my blog. You might want to stop with the persecution complex though as it's a bit tiresome.

Boston wrote:

Why don't you all shut up instead of having a pissing contest.

Well I'm not attempting to piss higher than people I just don't like to see poorly informed opinion presented as fact. Left unchallenged, statements like "upright rows damage shoulders" will be taken as fact by less experienced people reading this thread.

Roper

NFH wrote: »

So now ya can see I am looking for another good shoulder exercise instead of using military press again and these below seem like the ones to choose from. I could do shrugs but I want to make sure I'm doin the best one to improve my shoulder strength and size.

Push Press
Upright Rows
Lateral Raises
External Rotations
Power Cleans
Shrugs

Which would ya do?

Why not vary it? I wouldn't do the raises, bent over raises would be better and less stressful, rotations i don't like. Give yourself a smorgasboard of push press, d-bell press, M press, shrugs, and single arm work and whatever you fancy yourself. Pre session do plenty of YTWs, inverted shrugs, scap push ups and scap pull ups and smile your way to healthier shoulders

Roper

Roper wrote: »

Maybe I'm used to better comedy or something but... no... it's not funny at all. I remember you now though you're the one who called me some names a while back. You even made my blog. You might want to stop with the persecution complex though as it's a bit tiresome.

You change career or something ? When did you become a psychologist ? Oh that's right, just another uninformed opinion from an individual with an unwarranted, glorified high opinion of ones self worth.

You don't know it all. Don't try to act like you do.

Apologies master Roper (out of curiosity, what's your weight and body fat % ?), if speaking to over 15 respected, and recognised physios/physical therapists from the UK and Ireland about common gym injuries and treatment methods and how in their opinion, the likes of front raises, lat raises and bad form contribute to rotator cuff injuries more so than most - then forgive me.

You're right, jokes on me big fella. I'm just making sh*t up because I'm bored in China at 1am and they have blocked my access to facebook and twitter. Apologies.

PS: The bit in bold re: how I made your blog is just weird.

smashey

I'm locking this until somebody can convince me that an outbreak of civility is imminent.

g'em

TheEntrepeneur you've already been banned from the forum for behaviour not dissimilar to what you're doing on this thread. If you can't address a discussion without resorting to ridiculous and childish taunts then I strongly advise you steer clear of the thread altogether.

Your next ban will be permanent. Leave it out and leave the thread please.

Hardly a constructive contribution there Boston, you know how to report posts, just do it.

Transform

The vast majority of people that i work with have got poor shoulder function to begin with and i would argue that the majority of all gym goers never need to do a single upright row or frontal raise as those areas that are hit are sooooo over worked to begin with.

Just my two cents.

i throw lateral raises into some programs but with the amount most people hit their chest with there really is no need for them especially when most people can't even do chins to begin with or any significant back work to help pull shoulders back and get the shoulders to function properly

Roper

<ModSnip> Roper I've already addressed TheEntrepeneur on/thread, just leave be now, please.<ModSnip>

Smashey, I hope your post re: civility wasn't directed at me. If there's a post in here that is unmannerly or uncivil let me know and I'll withdraw it.

Roper

Transform wrote: »

The vast majority of people that i work with have got poor shoulder function to begin with and i would argue that the majority of all gym goers never need to do a single upright row or frontal raise as those areas that are hit are sooooo over worked to begin with.

I agree about raises, but just to be clear I referred to bent over rows earlier which seems to have been ignored

i throw lateral raises into some programs but with the amount most people hit their chest with there really is no need for them especially when most people can't even do chins to begin with or any significant back work to help pull shoulders back and get the shoulders to function properly

Would you not agree that certain row/raise exercises can aid shoulder function and increase back strength if the goal is to do pull ups?

Transform

all types of rows are helpful and its not like front raises are terrible either - kettlebell swings involve shoulder raises and i love them so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

The main thing is its really client specific - you can't say whats right or wrong for someone when they are not standing in front of me and i can assess them.

Overall, most people need to do more exercises like seated rows, scap press ups etc (as roper mentioned) and less direct shoulder work due to the reasons discussed before. And funny enough they help to improve shoulder health, make you bench and clean more and get your key in her door!

MAybe i got that last one wrong

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

Where's the key hole to your front door at home? Mine's around shoulder height... care to guess how i get the key there?

Im more of a curl and press man.