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Romanians BOO Madonna
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No I don't work for Nat Geo, but have worked doing research for 4 major media organisations in Europe, specifically researching Social changes/attitudes, racism, immigration, and the limitations of integration policies in the context of cultural needs and religious practices.So tell us why. Having read your posts in this thread, you seem to be an expert.
Do you work for National Geographic?
I'm sure your friends brother wasn't pricking around at all, where did i suggest he was ??? I'm more than familiar with conditions in Romanian orphanages, my brother and his wife were the FIRST couple in Ireland to adopt a Romanian baby in the late 80's. Joanne, my neice later became Leinster swimming champion in her age group 3 years in a row in the late 90's, but wtf do romanian orphanages have to do with Roma Gypsies ?Really?
So my friend's brother was just pricking around in Romania when he was building orphanages for charity to help the oh so good Romanian people?
Are you telling me that he wasted three years of his life over there helping the prosperous Romanians? That the wealthy nation of Romania never needed help with anything?
That the Romanians never abandoned children to run down buildings?
Of course there is a PC element to this, and there is an easy way to determine that fact. Just ask any settled single mother to send her child out begging, and see how long it takes social services to knock on her door. The trials and tribulations of living within the system, as a good citizen. The Roma don't seem to be bound by the same rules, and scream 'racism' or 'discrimination' any time the settled community demand that they do. You see they have that card to play, wherby they essentially have an 'opt out clause' from rules they don't like, the same rules that bind the rest of society together.Ahh, the PC argument. Yeah, we're all PC if we defend those who have a bad name.
More later.
which comments ? you can be specific if you wishReally?
Your comments say differently.
you could demand that IF i had said ALL Roma families, but I didn't.I demand evidence that this happens with all Roma families...
I think you'll find that's called 'Putting words in someones mouth' Terry, but that's a common trait of those that try to defend the indefensible, just for the hell of it on a web forum.
walk into any large european city centre area on a weekday, you won't be long seeing the evidence.If you cannot provide this by 5pm on Monday, I will ban you from AH for an indeterminate amount of time..
but heres some from Rome
no children in this clip, but you get the general idea. I'm pretty sure most posters have seen similar things in Dublin, I know I have.
I would argue that the Roma lifestyle is Alternative to any of the groups you mention above. The groups you mention above, apart from the Roma, are still, generally speaking, bound together by a common value system, that they, by and large, are happy to accept, in order for society to function properly. So the comparison has no corrolation and is therefore irrelevant.It's only alternative to you. It's normal for them. As much as not being allowed to drink until you are 21 is normal to Americans, or the age of consent being 16 is normal to most countries in the world, or eating horse meat is normal to most of Western Europe...
I've no doubt idiocy plays its part in many things in the modern world. The fact is, regarding this specific issue, unless the concerns of the majority are addressed, this problem will get worse, and bite us all in the ass 20 years from now. That's why in places like Hungary you have These guys. The Roma are now estimated to make up 26% of the combined population of Romania, Hungary Moldova and Bulgaria. Some other estimates put that at nearly 30%. That is not sustainable in a normal society, least of all one that is in the middle of a recession. The way to avoid the appearance of such groups here, and the groundswell of latent support for them that could follow, is to address the issues at hand now, before emerging hate groups become the reactionary product of an unsustainable mess.Idiocy
there is no point in addressing that point, because it makes absolutely no sense.Probably
Nothing to do with whether i like them or not, but I don't, for the record, and I have good reason.Why? Because you don't like them?
James Tallon age 86 Walkinstown Avenue Dublin, cleaned out by Roma beggars who called to his door in July 2006. The woman distracted him while her 2 small children entered the house and stole 700Euro from an upstairs room.Do you have a genuine reason for not trusting travellers or gypsies?
I'd like to hear it
Austin Kiernan age 92 of Wainsfort Crescent Terenure, who was robbed of his pension book and over 500Euro, in almost exactly the same way, in October 2008, while he was putting out his bins.
Both men are known to me, the first is my uncle, and the second a family friend. On recieving a phone call from his neighbour, I had to race to the house in the first instance, because he had collapsed. If it wasn't for the intervention of 3 Polish lads working in the house next door, they would have gotten away. Fortunately the Police came and the woman was arrested. Not all, of the money was retrieved. So please spare me the bleeding heart bullshit Terry.
well i'm prety sure in the context of the 2 examples Sock Puppet gave me (post #37), yes i believe it has.Has it really moved on, or are people like you just saying that it has moved on?There's still a **** load of ethnic related murders (disguised as war) going on all over the world.
You only have to look at Israel and Palestine to see that.
The Jews are ruthlessly bombing the crap out of Palestine (with backing from the Americans) and the Palestinians are ruthlessly suicide bombing Israel (with the backing of most Middle East countries).
The Chinese are screwing around in Tibet.
The Americans are screwing around in Africa and the Middle East (have they learned nothing from the failure that was the British empire?).
The only difference between 1939 and 2009 is that i you critcise the actions of others now, you are either labelled a hippie or a murderer.
Don't dispute anything you've said there, but these are Geopolitical issues that have no corrolation with some of the reasons some people like or dislike Roma Gypsies.People still can't see that it's all just black and white. Killing people over land/oil/gas/money/gold/old grudges etc. is wrong. Not killing them is right.?
where did i mention anything about killing Roma ?? I don't believe i did.
but thats just one example of how people jump to insane conclusions, because they 'choose' to misinterpret what you say.0 -
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I just have one question.
What's your solution to this percieved problem?
Solution ? Madonnas mouth should be riveted shut, end of
but seriously Terry, the Roma thing is a tough call, and tbh i have no answer, i wish i had an answer that would preserve everyones dignity, but it's out of my league, and i'm no politician. granted i have a gripe about what happened my uncle and the other old man, and i find that hard to deal with.
Sometimes, when I look at these social problems, I think it's like we're sitting on the Titanic, and the people in control are too busy re-arranging the deck chairs to act.
didn't mean any offence with anything i posted, i hope that's a given ?
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That part where ...their kids are verbally abusive and rude ..**** and piss on streets can equally be attributed to some non-roma kids as well tbh..
I can't say I completely agree on that. This is all personal/anecdotal evidence of course, but I have to say I've yet to witness very young children (like, four or five years old) effing and blinding, and spitting at, passers-by with absolutely no provocation, from any other ethnic/cultural group.
Older children and teenagers, yes. Children of that age, no.
I should add that the people p1ssing and sh1tting on the street (in full-view of houses and with young children playing close by) were adult women who I'm sure have fully-functioning toilets in their own houses, as they live nearby. And I must say I've never seen non-Roma people doing that, not in my neighborhood anyway.
Of course, your experience may differ to mine, and I must also add that there are another Roma family living in the area who are very quiet, polite, etc. So they can't all be tarred with the same brush, obviously.
I was in jail (mountjoy (unpaid fines for driving offences)) on Wednesday/Thursday.
The majority of prisoners were Irish.
Before being sent to a cell, I was in a holding cell. 29 of the 30 detainees were Irish. I've no idea where the other guy was from. He had no English and I wasn't really in the mood to ask him where he was from.
Two of them were from Dundalk and the others were from Dublin (either transferred from other prisons or in for repeat offences).
Going by those stats and factoring in that I'm from Kildare, roughly 80% of Dublin people are scumbags and are criminals and have done time.
It's amazing how you can find stats like that by just picking a select few.
Okay...
You do realise your example is ridiculously different to my post, don't you? I never once said that all Roma families behaved like the ones in my estate nor did I offer a foolish statistic like "80% of them are bad/ criminals/etc, etc!" In fact, I think my post was quite balanced and I tried to emphasise that nobody should be discriminated against or abused because they belong to a certain group. And I stand by that.
What I was trying to get across is that a number of them do behave in a negative way. From talking to other people I know, a lot of them have had bad experiences with the Roma group. Like marcsignal said, the negative opinions about them do not just fall out of the sky, they emerged from somewhere. Now, does that mean they should be verbally abused? Of course not. Should they burned out of their homes like what happened recently in the North? No, that was an appalling thing to happen and I would be deeply sad and angry if such a thing were to happen down here.
However, the Roma people playing with Madonna might want to take a look at the actions of some of their community when they complain about discrimination ( as wrong as that discrimination is), that's all I'm saying.
I would just like to add that I find it amusing that some of the comments on here would go completely un-noticed were this a thread about ''Irish scumbags''. Far from getting threats of bans/ infractions, I imagine a lot of 'thanks' would be earned. But it's okay to slag off anti-social, poverty-stricken Irish people, because, y'know, they're Irish. :rolleyes:0 -
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[cm]tyranny wrote: »You're right - the Irish are no longer starving, oppressed and illiterate so nobody gets to criticise us any more! Go us!
If only those wretched Roma could take a leaf out of our book! The Brits and the Yanks totally love us these days!
and your point is ???? The Irish are no longer starving and oppressed because their desire to better themselves enabled them to overcome illiteracy and oppression. They went to all parts of the globe and worked their arses off, with no help from social services, because social services didn't exist.
They could have happily lived in their own shit their entire lives, but chose not to.[cm]tyranny wrote: »Yes, she should have known better than to condemn racism and homophobia in front of an audience of people who are pretty ok with it
:rolleyes:
Why do you think they're 'ok' with it ?? personally I think she lumped in accusations of Homophobia to put a bit of iron in the glove for the consumption of western media, because in my experience, Romanians have far less a problem with Homosexuality than they have with the Roma. I'd even go far enough to say that Homophobia in Romania is no worse, per capita, than it is in Ireland. In fact, if you can produce evidence to the contrary i'd like to see it. If Madonna's looking for evidence of Homophobia in Romania, she should look no further than the attitudes of young men in the Roma community itself, that's the real irony here.
If she feels that strongly, patronising people and lecturing them on their 'immorality' it's a shame the leathery old has-been isn't equally passionate about not bribing government officials, for the purposes of stealing children then, isn't it ??
:rolleyes:
late edit*
It seems things are just getting worse and worse with this woman. She's now in the firing line with a senior Rabbi from a yashiva in Jerusalem over her peddling of the Kabahal to adoring fans.
By all accounts the Material Girls lifestyle is completely contrary to the teachings of the Zohan. :rolleyes:
story here
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/06/Madonna-Vs-Rabbi-Shmuley.aspx
what an utter PLONKER !!!
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marcsignal wrote: »and your point is ???? The Irish are no longer starving and oppressed because their desire to better themselves enabled them to overcome illiteracy and oppression. They went to all parts of the globe and worked their arses off, with no help from social services, because social services didn't exist.
They could have happily lived in their own shit their entire lives, but chose not to.
Why do you think they're 'ok' with it ?? personally I think she lumped in accusations of Homophobia to put a bit of iron in the glove for the consumption of western media, because in my experience, Romanians have far less a problem with Homosexuality than they have with the Roma. I'd even go far enough to say that Homophobia in Romania is no worse, per capita, than it is in Ireland. In fact, if you can produce evidence to the contrary i'd like to see it. If Madonna's looking for evidence of Homophobia in Romania, she should look no further than the attitudes of young men in the Roma community itself, that's the real irony here.
If she feels that strongly, patronising people and lecturing them on their 'immorality' it's a shame the leathery old has-been isn't equally passionate about not bribing government officials, for the purposes of stealing children then, isn't it ??
:rolleyes:
late edit*
It seems things are just getting worse and worse with this woman. She's now in the firing line with a senior Rabbi from a yashiva in Jerusalem over her peddling of the Kabahal to adoring fans.
By all accounts the Material Girls lifestyle is completely contrary to the teachings of the Zohan. :rolleyes:
story here
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/06/Madonna-Vs-Rabbi-Shmuley.aspx
what an utter PLONKER !!!
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I can't believe I'm sticking up for Madonna of all people here - I find her a pretty repellent species of human (without even looking at the state of her arms), and the "celebrity Kabballah cult" thing is just cringeworthy ****, but surely you must realise the context in which those remarks were made?
1 - the comments on homophobia were presumably there because 99% of her male fans are more interested in the frock she's wearing than how well she looks in it, and they would most certainly have been present in spades at this concert
2 - how on earth is condemning racism ever wrong? i notice from your sig that you post over on the world war two trivia board... here's a great bit of trivia; the Roma lost more proportionally more of their people than any other ethnic minority targeted in Hitler's Holocaust... Although I suspect from what you have written in this thread that your interest in "history" begins and ends with a few books on Panzers and Blitzkrieg...0 -
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marcsignal wrote: »and your point is ????
By all accounts the Material Girls lifestyle is completely contrary to the teachings of the Zohan. :rolleyes:
Quite true, I was shocked to see a former pupil of mine act in such a manner.0 -
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I have to reitterate, that I started this thread because I think Madonna is a cretin, and for that reason alone.Euro_Kraut wrote: »I'm confused by this thread and can't watch the youtube link.
Was Madonna encouraging the Roma to beg, steal etc or was she saying that people should not discriminate against them (and homosexuals) as an entire group?
She, in a very patronising way, lectured the crowd about the negative attitudes some Romanians have towards the Roma, and to add insult to injury, wrongfully had a go at them for 'supposedly' all being eastern European Homophobes into the bargain. Understandably, despite the denials of her spokesperson, her remarks went down like the Hindenburg.[cm]tyranny wrote: »I can't believe I'm sticking up for Madonna of all people here - I find her a pretty repellent species of human (without even looking at the state of her arms), and the "celebrity Kabballah cult" thing is just cringeworthy ****, but surely you must realise the context in which those remarks were made?
The context is totally irrelevant if you ask me. If we MUST be blighted with this washed up auld fanny, she should STFU and just mime her shite pop songs. If she insists on even just doing the 'pop star' thing, then why can't she emmulate someone like Kurt Cobain by putting both barrels of a shotgun in her gob and pulling the trigger ? Having said that, even if she did so, theres still a serious risk she'd miss her fcukin brain by a mile.:pac:[cm]tyranny wrote: »1 - the comments on homophobia were presumably there because 99% of her male fans are more interested in the frock she's wearing than how well she looks in it, and they would most certainly have been present in spades at this concert
So why didn't she direct her remarks on Homophobia at her entourage of Roma musicians, instead of the audience? considering, proportionally, that most of the Homophobia in Romania emminates from young males in the Roma community. I wonder if you can guess why ??[cm]tyranny wrote: »2 - how on earth is condemning racism ever wrong?
Nothing wrong with condemning Racism at all, but she should put her money where her enormous incontinent mouth is, by doing a gig in somewhere like Zimbabwe, try the same stunt there, and see how well it goes down. By suggesting that, I'm assuming of course, that you, and Madonna, are more than aware that not all racism is 'White on SIZE="1"]insert ethnic minority here[/SIZE' but can just as easily be a two sided blade.[cm]tyranny wrote: »i notice from your sig that you post over on the world war two trivia board... here's a great bit of trivia; the Roma lost more proportionally more of their people than any other ethnic minority targeted in Hitler's Holocaust......
More than aware of that, but were you aware that the reason the Roma were targeted in the first place, was not for racial/biological reasons, but because they were simply considered Anti-Social and refused, by and large, to integrate into society. It might also surprise you to know that, not a large amount, but some Gypsies served in the Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine ?? and were given special consessions for this fact ?[cm]tyranny wrote: »Although I suspect from what you have written in this thread that your interest in "history" begins and ends with a few books on Panzers and Blitzkrieg...
At 42 years of age, and having worked as a tour guide in a Nazi Concentration Camp, nothing could be further from the truth. Without blowing smoke up my own arse, my knowledge of WW2 is more than adequate. If you, or any other reader/poster here, would like to discuss the Holocaust with me in any kind of logistical detail, we can do it here. I've written a pretty long post about certain aspects of it, and will be happy to stand over, and debate, everything i've written in it.:cool:
Just for the record [cm]tyranny, i've posted nothing here with a view to having a go at you personally. As long as that's unserstood.
LOL!!Quite true, I was shocked to see a former pupil of mine act in such a manner. 0 -
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Can i ask tyranny have you travelled to Rumania,Hungary,Slovakia,Bulgaria etc where there is a high percentage of Roma population and engaged with the local people both Roma and non Roma?
Of all of those places I was only ever in Romania and Hungary, but I spent much longer in Romania than I spent in Hungary, and while I was travelling as a guest of Romanians I did engage with a good few Roma (we were in the northern Moldavian border region for much of our trip there so there were certainly proportionally more of them there than I saw in Bucharest)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzWfU5rkBVI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wnmxng-4M0
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