Part of Dublin to Belfast rail line collapses

Rashers72

I wonder could Fingal Co Council open up some of the green space in Malahide castle grounds as a temporary/emergency park and ride, if the rebuild is going to take a few weeks?
I think we need some joined together thinking on workarounds.
Unfortunately, Irish Rail are at their worst during delays etc., so unless someone else puts on on their thinking caps we could be left with the 33 plus a few coaches here and there.
The M1/Port Tunnel will be a disaster if everyone has to drive.

Bluetonic

Rashers72 wrote: »

I wonder could Fingal Co Council open up some of the green space in Malahide castle grounds as a temporary/emergency park and ride, if the rebuild is going to take a few weeks?

Great idea, you should seriously contact your local representative in politics/FCC about this one.

Traffic would still be a nightmare from Lissenhall, to Seatown and on to Malahide but how and ever.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

The other problem is that whether Dublin Bus have spare vehicles/drivers available - people seem to think that buses and drivers can be sprung out of nowhere!! That may not be the case (particularly in the morning rush hour).

No problem there, all those DB and BE drivers and vehicles that were supposed to given the chop can now relax for a while.

positron

lostexpectation wrote: »

did you know what happened at that stage?

Well, IR staff said a 'bridge collapse' near Malahide, which I took as a rail over-bridge collapse..! No, I didn't know it was at the estuary.

The coaches were taking everyone to Drogheda, and the enterprise service to pick up people from Drogheda. I don't know how long they had to wait for that in Drogheda.

DWCommuter

While Im not trying to purposefully sound negative, there have been various accidents and weather related issues on Dublins road network, that have caused serious but thankfully shortlived chaos. The one key observation that Ive made is the deplorable lack of a plan to manage the repercussions of these events. This bridge collapse is crippling one of the countrys busiest rail lines. There is absolutely no doubt that chaos will rein on the roads and buses. There is no back up plan to manage it. I mentioned it here;

http://www.informer.ie/article007.html?&tx_ttnews[pointer]=3&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=350&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12&cHash=08303e8394

and here;

http://www.informer.ie/article007.html?&tx_ttnews[pointer]=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=484&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12&cHash=383a82d354

For the last few years the weather has proven to us that it causes events that can cripple transport links. Yet we continue along blindly ignoring the concept of managing alternative options so disruption is kept to a minimum. Lets see what Monday is like. I dearly hope Im wrong.

Bluetonic

Derek any input to my post here?

DWCommuter

Bluetonic wrote: »

Derek any input to my post here?

Well my description of a raging river was perhaps more exaggerated than what happens in Malahide, but I accept the flow is strong and very relavent.

As for the foundations. I know the decking was replaced on the viaduct, but I honestly dont know if the original abbuttments are the ones it sits on, but wouldn't be surprised if they were. However it really isn't an excuse for them to collapse/subside etc. Notwithstanding our weather of recent years, viaducts like this should be checked thoroughly. I doubt what happened yesterday is souly a result of freakish weather. There is human error in this. What I dont accept is that many bridges and viaducts in the country are perfectly sound. The Shannon bridge on the Sligo line is in a frightening condition.

Irjudge1

From the photos it looks like a failure of the foundation on the central pier it would interesting to see a photo from the seaward side of the bridge to see if the pier has moved in that direction.

murphaph

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Dose anyone have any idea where loco 186 is?

Its due for an excursion from Connolly to Wicklow next Sunday, I hope its not stuck at the RPSI depot in the North :eek:

Who gives a f**k? Really, get your priorities straight.

hoser expat

So to hire a 50 seater coach for the day costs about €400 when I did this recently for a school outing.

Some enterprising coach company should start a shuttle service from each of the major affected stations, charge a fiver, and they'd do nicely. I say this mainly because I have no faith in anyone in charge getting their finger out and providing adequate alternate buses. There are at least 150 people waiting at Skerries for the same morning train as me every day...that's just one of the several morning rush hour trains. Probably 1000 commuters each way at Skerries every day?

Hey, if Monday turns out to be a complete nightmare, maybe I'll arrange it myself.

lostexpectation

did they cover this precast concrete structure with the stones from the old bridge abuttments in 1969?

http://www.malahideheritage.com/Historical%20Guide%20-%20Part%20II.htm

http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20154/154%20Irish%20Railway%20Bridges.htm
http://books.google.ie/books?id=Hx8wAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&client=firefox-a

http://www.killowryart.com/images/malahide.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/catb/3843727118/

what year did they start running darts out there?

murphaph

positron wrote: »

I have to say the rail users are such a merry bunch - the 3 to 400 people out waiting for IR to arrange coaches for nearly 2 hours, infants in buggies, people with long haul flight tags on their luggages, daily commuters, teenagers returning from shopping, old and frails grannies - they all just stood there chatting, laughing, smoking, munching, listening to whatever - I know for a fact that in many other parts of the world this would have lead to tut tutting, heated debates, fingers pointed at etc..! Top marks to the rail users!!

It's nice in a way but if irish people weren't in general such saps who can be taken for a ride (pun intended) by the likes of IR and our political system, then perhaps things like this wouldn't happen, or at least the contingency would be planned. Berlin has recently had chaos (for Berlin, still much better than Ireland) in its public transport due to a f*** up by Deutsche Bahn (also safety related) but when the German Railway Ministry found out, heads rolled (head of S-Bahn Berlin fell on his sword immediately) and the contingency plan was (IMO) superb. The Berliners are fairly laid back, but still wouldn't accept any old rubbish.

DWCommuter

The concrete beams were laid across the 1860 stone piers in 1967. When this work was carried out the level of the estuary was raised to reduce the tidal reflux. As we all know the problem appears to be with the much older stone pier. Looks like they thought it would last forever.

So I correct my earlier assumption. The spans are reasonably new. The piers date from 1860, when a wooden structure was replaced.

Jonathan

lostexpectation wrote: »

what year did they start running darts out their?

2000

Essexboy

Where is the Railways Safety Commission in all this?

Part of their job is to "Carry out inspections of railway infrastructure, operations and management systems and take enforcement proceedings where necessary, including the use of mandatory prohibition and improvement notices and High Court injunctions."

GerardKeating

lostexpectation wrote: »

what year did they start running darts out their?

The collapse is beyond the electrified section, so no connection...

Irjudge1

DWCommuter wrote: »

As we all know the problem appears to be with the much older stone pier. Looks like they thought it would last forever.

There is no reason to think that they wouldn't last subject to a proper inspection regime. The most critical issue this pier I would have thought was scouring at the base of the pier by the constant tidal flow and if I was a betting man I would guess that this is where the cause of the failue is going to lie.

The thing that concerns me is that if this is where there problem lies, and it is an obvious issue structurally, then it would make me seriously concerned about Irish Rails maintenance regime for all structures.

The investigation into this should be by an independent body.

Run_to_da_hills

murphaph wrote: »

Who gives a f**k? Really, get your priorities straight.

A lot of people give a f**ck, Those families with kids that have booked tickets in advance and that are travelling up from the country will want to know asap. :rolleyes:

murphaph

If this is the reason for the collapse then the whole viaduct is obsolete and will need replacing. I wouldn't expect this to reopen for many months even if it's repairable. They also have a customer confidence issue if they just repair it....

2 bridge collapses on IR in recent years. Not good, especially given the very low speeds on the irish network.

dcr22B

They'll have an administrative nightmare as well with commuters who will potentially be looking for refunds on their Taxsaver tickets.

As it stands, they have to seriously increase the frequency of the 33 at peak hour times.

DWCommuter

Irjudge1 wrote: »

There is no reason to think that they wouldn't last subject to a proper inspection regime. The most critical issue this pier I would have thought was scouring at the base of the pier by the constant tidal flow and if I was a betting man I would guess that this is where the cause of the failue is going to lie.

The thing that concerns me is that if this is where there problem lies, and it is an obvious issue structurally, then it would make me seriously concerned about Irish Rails maintenance regime for all structures.

The investigation into this should be by an independent body.

I agree with your sentiments, but nothing lasts forever. If they had been checked thoroughly and a fault found, then action could have been taken. That action may well have been complete renewal of the viaduct.

Run_to_da_hills

Is IR Insured adainst such? Rebuilding costs, logistics, loss of earnings etc?

dcr22B

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is IR Insured adainst such? Rebuilding costs, logistics, loss of earnings etc?

Why? Can I sue them?

IIMII

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is IR Insured adainst such? Rebuilding costs, logistics, loss of earnings etc?

I'd imagine IÉ are self-insured but don't know for definite

murphaph

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is IR Insured adainst such?

Who would insure such a basket case?! Oh, wait, the taxpayer!

mikemac

dcr22B wrote: »

They'll have an administrative nightmare as well with commuters who will potentially be looking for refunds on their Taxsaver tickets.

I used to commute from Belfast to Dublin for work.
The line was shut down for about 4 days as they were installing a bridge over the M1. So buses were laid on.

Refund on my weekly ticket? Not a chance

I'm not trying to compare a few days of buses to the weeks and months of hassle that will happen now.
But will Irish Rail will give refunds for this? I'm not sure

Irjudge1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is IR Insured adainst such? Rebuilding costs, logistics, loss of earnings etc?

Can't see how you would insure against this. It would appear at this stage to be a deterioration of the structure over time and that the required maintenance was neglected.

It would be like insuring your car to cover wear and tear on the brake pads.

Irjudge1

mikemac wrote: »

I used to commute from Belfast to Dublin for work.
The line was shut down for about 4 days as they were installing a bridge over the M1. So buses were laid on.

Refund on my weekly ticket? Not a chance

I'm not trying to compare a few days of buses to the weeks and months of hassle that will happen now.
But will Irish Rail will give refunds for this? I'm not sure

I'd say they will issue refunds or extend the duration of validity of tickets. The ****storm they are going to face in relation to the safety of the network will dwarf the financial issues.

IIMII

dowlingm wrote: »

Once again the fragility of the Irish rail network, radial as it is, is demonstrated if the recent Bray closure wasn't enough. If Navan-Clonsilla was open the mines traffic could be running through there and trapped trainsets rerouted to the other side of the breach.

The one thing about lines like Limerick Junction-Waterford and Waterford-Rosslare that the beancounters don't mention is that they do provide extra options when incidents like these occur. As murphaph said there, if Metronorth ran to Donabate that could take a whole bunch more people off the M1 now.

The other point is that if Dublin Port had moved faster on moving port operations to Balbriggan, the mines traffic might not be hammering the suburban trackage as much anyway.

@DWCommuter - I was just thinking that it might be time for a look at the Cahir report as a preview of what we'll read in the RSC's report on this disaster.

When the Tolka bridge collapsed in Fairview, they did just that. Trains ran Dublin - Navan - Drogheda - Belfast. But the flip is that if Navan-Dublin were open, Navan-Drogheda would probably be closed so the mine traffic would be ok, but might not be of much use for anything else. The passengers on the train that passed over it were blessed, and fair play to the driver. Can they not radio in from the cab though while in motion?

EDIT: I just realised that Tara Mines trains finish early on a Friday, so it was probably a blessing in disguise that it happened on the day it did too. There would normally be a train arriving into Navan about 7pm iirc, which would have had it passing the viaduct northbound between 5pm and 6pm Monday to Thursday

dcr22B

mikemac wrote: »

I used to commute from Belfast to Dublin for work.
The line was shut down for about 4 days as they were installing a bridge over the M1. So buses were laid on.

Refund on my weekly ticket? Not a chance

I'm not trying to compare a few days of buses to the weeks and months of hassle that will happen now.
But will Irish Rail will give refunds for this? I'm not sure

I'm only suggesting refunds for these tickets if commuters decide that their best way to work will be to drive.

I can only assume that Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann will honour all IE tickets.