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Plantation of Ulster stamp
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Both sets of deaths are abhorrent. The intention of those involved differs significantly.I am not trying to raise an excuse, but to claim that the planters are in any way out of line for merely arriving in Ireland is a bit off.
Oh my god.... You sure you don't wear union jack underpants?
The simple fact is they murdered people for their own benefit. Oh and they didn't merely "arrive" in Ireland - if that was all it was, we would never have witnessed what we have in our history.A commemorative stamp isn't meant to inform everyone about history. It is expected that it will promote people learning more about the Plantations.
So why commemorate then???????????????
Why don't we just have a stamp with a link to Wikipedia or something
....No, you've been asking people to recognise what happened in the past in the same way you do. We are all critically thinking creatures who are able to analyse historical events for ourselves surely?
Em no - I'm asking people not to forget what happened in the past and remember that this wasn't all rosey dosey...Think about it. Why would people point to where a battle happened if it wasn't to provoke a memory, or to commemorate said battle?
Or ffs - this is getting even more ridiculous by the minute. It's there to tell people that are interested in it, where it is. Directional road signs are to tell us how to get there... nothing else
So you're saying the signs to Auschwitz are in some way commemorative... ffs give us a break.
I hope you don't have a driving license. God knows what you think speed limit signs are there for.If and only if, that depends on whether or not you think a stamp can draw attention to the plantations without undue bias to one side. I think it can, clearly you don't think this is possible.
I do think it can - but I can't comment on whether it has or not without seeing it. It could easily commemorate those that died in the plantation by depicting the pain in the faces of those that suffered during that period.I've been educated in Irish history like everyone else. I'm quite aware of what happened. The Irish Civil War, was quite honestly fruitless.
I'm not getting into details of the Irish Civil War, because I certainly don't think it was fruitless and we could spend days debating those points. However, your opinion is that it made no difference, I disagree with you completely on that front and I'm sure a lot of others would too.0 -
Oh my god.... You sure you don't wear union jack underpants?
Migration between nations happened throughout histories in a number of different places. It isn't the migration that I have a problem with. I would have a problem with the deaths and the human rights abuses, but one has to realise that modern Britain is rather different to the England of the 16th century.The simple fact is they murdered people for their own benefit. Oh and they didn't merely "arrive" in Ireland - if that was all it was, we would never have witnessed what we have in our history.
Is that factual? I thought it was because of Gaelic raids after being evicted from their lands? You're painting a very one sided view of this, and as we all know conflicts are rarely one sided. I don't think they should have been evicted, but I also don't think we need to be so petty about having a stamp to point out what happened.So why commemorate then???????????????
I think you'd find a stamp is quite a small size to include an entire history of the Plantations on it. One can only find an image or a picture that would draw attention to what happened. Perhaps of the old city of Derry or something along those lines.Why don't we just have a stamp with a link to Wikipedia or something....
The Plantations are notable in Ireland's history. That would seem a good reason to me.Em no - I'm asking people not to forget what happened in the past and remember that this wasn't all rosey dosey...
Of course it wasn't, but it wasn't all 100% bad either.So you're saying the signs to Auschwitz are in some way commemorative... ffs give us a break.
They are. Those signs are there so that people will remember that a despicable atrocity happened in Auschwitz, likewise the site of the Battle of the Boyne is there to point out that an important battle took place there, pretty much the same reason why there are signs like that all over the country about battles that took place.
Let's define commemorative:
an object (such as a coin or postage stamp) made to mark an event or honor a person.
These signs also are there to mark and event. Therefore they are commemorative.I do think it can - but I can't comment on whether it has or not without seeing it. It could easily commemorate those that died in the plantation by depicting the pain in the faces of those that suffered during that period.
That's why I'm saying wait and see. Do you not think An Post understand that this is a sensitive issue?I'm not getting into details of the Irish Civil War, because I certainly don't think it was fruitless and we could spend days debating those points. However, your opinion is that it made no difference, I disagree with you completely on that front and I'm sure a lot of others would too.
What did it bring about? The Irish Free State served as a stepping stone to the Republic as was predicted. People fought amongst themselves, spilled unnecessary blood for absolutely nothing.0 -
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There's already plans for a commerative statue - but again, it will focus on those that have been affected and not the perpetrators.
A stamp commemmorating the Plantation could do likewiseThe famine stamps remembered those that died.
A a stamp commemorating the Plantation of Ulster likewise, again what's the difference, er none. I could look at a Famine stamp and think 'yep that was a terrible thing'.... I could look at a Plantation stamp and think 'yep that was a terrible thing', do you think a Famine Stamp is glorifying those responsible or absolving them from what they did, no it commemmorates an event in Irish history.Yet you think bombing people to death is worse than people being killed for standing up for their rights. Fair enough... I don't agree..
Killing people for nothing....killing people for something.... end of the day it's still killing people.Ludicrous.... Germany will never release a stamp in that vein...
Virtually every village, town and city in Germany has something to remember the war and the Nazi state. To some they're a commemoration of the victims, to others it's a place of worship for Nazi sympathisers. All dependant on what you want to see really.But I agree that there is a difference between remembering and glorifying. And that is the point. It all comes down to what this stamp will actually commemorate - if it is taking sides in any fashion, it will only leave one side of the divide offended....
See above. One thing can be viewed by different sides as "glorifying" different things.0 -
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Was it really wholly destructive in summation?
The benefits of the English language, the introduction of different religious views, and the increased construction of towns and settlements for people to live in in comparison to former life in crannógs are all benefits of the Plantations in Ireland.
Undoubtedly there were, and probably still are some negatives that remain with us from it including the destruction of the Irish language, marginalisation of Roman Catholics, and so on.
The native Irish lived in towns pre-plantation as well as in huts, not all only just in huts you know 0 -
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What you are asking me to do is go further than that though, you are asking me to condemn the very existence of settlers in Ireland. I don't really think I can. I mean people migrate to new places a lot of the time.
Please show me where I've asked you to do this. I never once asked you to condemn the existence of the settlers.
You felt that bombing and murdering people through plantation were not just as henious as each other.
Go do a bit of research... Google is your friend...How do you mean?
I've mentioned it in a few replies, maybe if you were not ignorant towards my comments you might actually understand the rest of my points.I disagree with you. Those signs have a purpose, to point out that a battle happened there. That by definition is commemorative.
You can disagree all you like - you're wrong.You do if you cannot see that the signs serve a commemorative purpose.
I've given you the definition of what a road sign is - please don't insult my intelligence.I don't see what is so controversial about stamps about a historical event that took place in Ireland.
As I've said now on numerous occassions - I don't either - as long as it's commemorated in the right fashion.Your claim that all Irish militant action has progressed towards peace is absurd.
Yet again twisting what I've said. You really need to take time to read peoples arguments - otherwise we're just going to bash our heads together forever.
For the sake of making it clear once and for all... I've stated that ALL events have shaped the landscape of the society we live in today, regardless of whether or not it was good or bad. The fact is that we should commermorate our fallen hereos rather than the people who inflicted pain on many lives.A stamp commemmorating the Plantation could do likewise
This post was in reply to someone elses point that we should commemorate the victims of residential abuse. I just pointed out that there was a status in planning.
And you're backing up what I'm saying. The stamp for the Plantation of Ulster could do exactly the same - and that is all I want. As I've stated in numerous posts now, if they focus on those that were mistreated, I would be in favour of the stamp. Or a collection like the Royal Mails for the Battle of Hastings, that tell the story and don't just glorify once aspect of it - which is what one stamp could possibly be perceived as. We don't yet have a stamp - so we'll have to wait and see.A a stamp commemorating the Plantation of Ulster likewise, again what's the difference, er none. I could look at a Famine stamp and think 'yep that was a terrible thing'.... I could look at a Plantation stamp and think 'yep that was a terrible thing'.
Emmm and if you'd read my posts - you will see that's what I've been hoping that An Post will do.Killing people for nothing....killing people for something.... end of the day it's still killing people.
Agreed. But Jackass can't see this.Virtually every village, town and city in Germany has something to remember the war and the Nazi state. To some they're a commemoration of the victims, to others it's a place of worship for Nazi sympathisers. All dependant on what you want to see really.
Again, they commemorate the fallen ones - not those that inflicted torture and pain on so many. I'd love to see your examples of how people commemorate Nazi Germany...See above. One thing can be viewed by different sides as "glorifying" different things.
Not if done properly...0 -
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