Plantation of Ulster stamp

dlofnep

Grimes wrote: »

Anyway I really think that the plantations made us the country we are today, they shaped our landscape and our towns to an extent and are as much part of Irish history and heritage as the megaliths (which co-incidentally were brought in by an "invading" group of people)

Of course it made an impact on Ireland and is apart of Irish history - Much the same as the Black & Tans are a part of Irish history. That's not in dispute. But do you believe that we should celebrate the events of the Plantations - which created sectarianism in Ireland (which is still alive today as a result of it), created penal laws, moved farmers off their land and gave it to foreign planters? These are all well document facts.

We should remember the plantations, but certainly not as a positive chapter in Irish history.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course it made an impact on Ireland and is apart of Irish history - Much the same as the Black & Tans are a part of Irish history. That's not in dispute. But do you believe that we should celebrate the events of the Plantations - which created sectarianism in Ireland (which is still alive today as a result of it), created penal laws, moved farmers off their land and gave it to foreign planters? These are all well document facts.

We should remember the plantations, but certainly not as a positive chapter in Irish history.

In your opinion mate.

Other people might think differently.

Don't go around with a closed mind pal.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

In your opinion mate.

No - it is not my opinion. It is historical fact.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Other people might think differently.

Think differently about what? That sectarianism is a direct result of the Plantations? That Penal Laws favoured protestants, and reduced Catholics to second class citizens? That native farmers were pushed off their land for foreign invaders? Which is it?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Don't go around with a closed mind pal.

Where did I demonstrated a closed mind in this thread? By outlining historical facts? Instead of attacking my character - Let's debate. I'm more than happy to debate the issue with you.

FlutterinBantam

No problem, would the Ulster Unionist feel the same about the plantations as you do??

Would they say that the weren't a good thing in the evolution of Irish History.??

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

No problem, would the Ulster Unionist feel the same about the plantations as you do??

Of course they wouldn't "feel" the same way I do. That doesn't change historical fact, does it? It doesn't change the reality that people were forced off their land and that laws were created which treated the native population as second class citizens. Do you feel that this should be celebrated?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Would they say that the weren't a good thing in the evolution of Irish History.??

No and what does it matter? It doesn't change historical fact that the Plantations were a dark chapter in Irish history. I don't believe the plantations were a good thing in the evolution in Irish history. They created sectarianism in Ireland, lead to the divide of a country which spawned a civil war directly because of it, and subsequently saw decades of violence in the 6 counties because of mass civil inequality for the catholics, which was a follow-on from the penal law mentality. So no - it wasn't a good thing. Ireland would have been a better place without it. Ireland would have evolved the same as every other country coming into the 20th century. Scandinavia was once a place of brutal monsters, but is now one of the most economically viable and beautiful places in the world. It didn't require plantations or the English language to succeed, and neither did Ireland.

I'll await for you to answer my question. Don't bother me again until you're willing to do so.

Riamfada

dlofnep wrote: »

We should remember the plantations, but certainly not as a positive chapter in Irish history.

History is neither positive or negative. It just happens and the result is the present. While the plantations did play a part in sectarian divisions there are numerous plantation towns all over the Republic that people who believe today to be "true Irish villages".

dlofnep

Grimes wrote: »

History is neither positive or negative. It just happens and the result is the present. While the plantations did play a part in sectarian divisions there are numerous plantation towns all over the Republic that people who believe today to be "true Irish villages".

History can be positive or negative. By that logic, Nazi Germany was neither positive or negative. Try spin that logic with the Jewish community and see if they swallow it as easily.

The 26 counties is not affected today, because we don't have the same density of opposing-communities nor did Britain have the same success with Plantations. Ulster was most affected by the Plantations because it was the most penetrated Plantation. This is very well documented.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course they wouldn't "feel" the same way I do. That doesn't change historical fact, does it? It doesn't change the reality that people were forced off their land and that laws were created which treated the native population as second class citizens. Do you feel that this should be celebrated?



No and what does it matter? It doesn't change historical fact that the Plantations were a dark chapter in Irish history. I don't believe the plantations were a good thing in the evolution in Irish history. They created sectarianism in Ireland, lead to the divide of a country which spawned a civil war directly because of it, and subsequently saw decades of violence in the 6 counties because of mass civil inequality for the catholics, which was a follow-on from the penal law mentality. So no - it wasn't a good thing. Ireland would have been a better place without it. Ireland would have evolved the same as every other country coming into the 20th century. Scandinavia was once a place of brutal monsters, but is now one of the most economically viable and beautiful places in the world. It didn't require plantations or the English language to succeed, and neither did Ireland.

I'll await for you to answer my question. Don't bother me again until you're willing to do so.

Others living in NI might feel it is worthy of being remembered.

What I personally believe is not the point, history happened, and we are where we are.
In your opinion it wasn't a good thing but others might differ.;)

dlofnep

I told you not to bother me until you answer my question. You can't answer it, because it would actually involve agreeing with me, or taking an inaccurate and unpopular revisionist stance on history.

FlutterinBantam

Heh heh you just blew yourself out of the water there buddy.;)

Rebelheart

Grimes wrote: »

Hopefully the Queen. Bring back Britain!

Alternatively, you could always go to Britain.

www.ryanair.com

Shacklebolt

My own personal opinion is that if these stamps are actually commemorating the plantation then its a disgraceful and illogical.

Riamfada

Rebelheart wrote: »

Alternatively, you could always go to Britain.

Id prefer it if it went back to the way it was since the dawn of modern society cheers.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Heh heh you just blew yourself out of the water there buddy.;)

No I didn't - I provided a perfectly logical stance, with a very simple question to answer. You avoided tackling either. I win.

Rebelheart

Grimes wrote: »

Id prefer it if it went back to the way it was since the dawn of modern society cheers.

And what way would that be, Grimes?

Rebelheart

Sherifu wrote: »

Link Can't see the harm in this really. Anyone feel as strongly as this guy about it?

What next? The Red Squirrel Society of Ireland honouring the guy who brought the American grey squirrel into Ireland from Britain in 1911?

http://www.wicklowmountainsnationalpark.ie/GreySquirrel.html

994

PrivateEye wrote: »

Other stamps in the collection will include:

'James Connolly tied to a chair!'
'Cromwell going around Dublin on his horse!'
'Rossville flats 1972!'

"Colm and Jim Jim's Home Run!"

stovelid

Rebelheart wrote: »

What next? The Red Squirrel Society of Ireland honouring the guy who brought the American grey squirrel into Ireland from Britain in 1911?

You may think it's a matter for merriment.

Some of us will never forget the supercilious colonial arrogance with which the foreign grey invader was planted on our fair isle and brutally subjugated the rightful Eurasian inhabitants of this land, forcing them into an intermittent and nutless penury.

Sciurus Vulgaris Abu!

dlofnep

stovelid wrote: »

You may think it's a matter for merriment.

Some of us will never forget the supercilious colonial arrogance with which the foreign grey invader was planted on our fair isle and brutally subjugated the rightful Eurasian inhabitants of this land, forcing them into an intermittent and nutless penury.

Sciurus Vulgaris Abu!

LOL

FlutterinBantam

That's right, fcukers could eat the toxic stuff and were built up and ready for the Reds, who couldn't take the sour stuff.
Love Mars Bars those fookers.


Reds had to head West.

aDeener

wonder would there be commemorative stamps of canary wharf in britain?:rolleyes:

MarchDub

Bambi wrote: »

I await An Posts llyod george/winston churchill/tan bastards commemorative set with bated breath. :rolleyes:

That's the set I'm waiting for too...seems like we won't have too long to wait!

What gobsmacking idiot came up with the idea of a Plantation commemorative stamp? Jeez, why do we Irish frequently feel compelled to apologize or explain away offenses done to us? The national inferiority complex is alive and well....depressing.

AckwelFoley

Hagar wrote: »

Tell me this is a joke, please.

from your recent post history with relation to matters pertaining to subjects on northern ireland i have come to the conclusion you are a member of the IRA's southern france brigade.

I see the plan now. Attack england from its southern flanks, with the aid of French sympathisers.

Its comming, brace yourselves Ireland

Hagar

Vive la Résistance. :pac:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Coincidently enough reeling in the years of 1970 was on tonight. Thousands of Catholics burnt out of their homes by so called loyalists. They would have been planter descendents

Wonder how those Catholics feel about this "commemorative" stamp. I think its a disgrace.

stovelid

aDeener wrote: »

wonder would there be commemorative stamps of canary wharf in britain?:rolleyes:

http://a.imagehost.org/0125/STAMP.png

An Fear Aniar

I'm cool with this, frequent irruptions are a part of our history and heritage.

You only need to read the Book of Leinster or Foras Feasa or the Annals of the Four Masters to see that predatory invasions happened all the time on this island... the only difference with the Plantations was that the invaders were from outside of the Gaelic world.

.

GA361

Long Onion wrote: »

Originally Posted by www.irishtimes.com
Madam, – I am disappointed to learn in the latest issue of An Post’s philatelist magazine, The Collector, that a stamp will be issued on September 4th to commemorate the Plantation of Ulster.

I am dismayed that An Post would consider an event where England colonised this country as being worthy of a commemorative stamp. This event directly contributed to the partition of Ulster from the rest of the Republic that exists today. It is akin to South Africa’s ANC party releasing a commemorative stamp welcoming the colonisation of English and Dutch settlers which ultimately led to the apartheid system that existed there. Shame on those who came up with this idea. – Yours, etc,

JOHN WATERS,

Moyvoon,

Oughterard,

Co Galway.



Sir,

I am sick of useless wasters living in the past who have fcuk all better to do than drag up the same mindless dirge time after time. The stamp was only issued to prevent fcuks like you from sending more pointless letters.

Ask my arse.

King Billy

It wasn't he who dragged up this disgracefull part of history,it was the fools who came up with the stamp idea . . .are you saying that he shiouldn't express his opinion?

994 wrote: »

I think you're about 200 years off there. All the plantation did was replace one group of oppressive landlords with another.

So,that was only 85 years ago . . .

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Others living in NI might feel it is worthy of being remembered.

What I personally believe is not the point, history happened, and we are where we are.
In your opinion it wasn't a good thing but others might differ.;)

The important thing to remember here is that if certain NI people are of that opinion,well tbh . . they're wrong and they're disgraces.

Hagar

I suppose we can only enjoy the irony that the people who would most like to use these stamps can't unless they cross the Border into our detested country and change their beloved Queen's headed coinage into Euros to give into An Oifig an Phoist to buy stamps they can only use in the Republic. You gotta take the laughs where you find them.

Jim236

Right all politics aside, what good actually came out of the Ulster plantation? What idiot in An Post actually thought "do yeah know what we haven't celebrated in a while thats really benefitted this country"? What dope thought something which caused so many deaths, and resulted in the division and sectarianism in society across the island we see today, and more importantly the partition of this island, would be worth commemorating? I mean we should always remember our past and not be selective with what parts of our history we choose to remember and celebrate, but why commemorate a moment like the Ulster Plantations which ultimately was the cause for so many deaths and so much division on this island?

I mean what, did they think having a stamp like this would appease Unionists(who won't even use them) and make them think "ah lads yeh know we never really gave the whole United Ireland thing a chance. I mean look, they've gone and made a stamp for us, I mean yeh can't say no to that...".

Idiots...

Lobster

Depends on the stamp really, I'm against a stamp celebrating this dark period in Irish history but in the other hand, if it were to serve as a reminder of the hardships endured by the people, then why not?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Lobster wrote: »

Depends on the stamp really, I'm against a stamp celebrating this dark period in Irish history but in the other hand, if it were to serve as a reminder of the hardships endured by the people, then why not?

I agree with your sentiments but I'm just wondering how you could go about portraying that properly on a postage stamp?

dlofnep

Lobster wrote: »

Depends on the stamp really, I'm against a stamp celebrating this dark period in Irish history but in the other hand, if it were to serve as a reminder of the hardships endured by the people, then why not?

If it's a historical reminder, of course. If it's to celebrate the plantations, then it's categorically absurd. An Post will need to clarify it.

In saying that - I doubt anybody really gives a hoot. It's just a stamp, and nobody uses post anymore. E-mail ruined the post business, and it's generally only used now for bills that nobody reads, and spam mail from dominos pizza.

philologos

The Ulster Plantation is something that changed this country irrespective of whether or not people like it. A small minority of people will think that this stamp is apt and appropriate for remembering such a changing time in Irish history, others will find it offensive.

The Ulster Plantation brought a lot of negatives no doubt, but there was already British colonisation in Ireland at that point anyway. The only one positive I can think of was that it allowed for alternative forms of Christianity to exist on a wider scale in Ireland so that people could have a freer choice of faith.

On the other half, it followed with pretty severe restrictions to freedom of religion both in the UK and in Ireland with the Penal Laws restricting the rights of Catholics and Dissenting Protestants (non-Anglicans).

Adamcp898

The decision to issue two stamps to mark the Plantation of Ulster..............will be seen as a symbolic act in the ongoing maturing of relationships between both parts of the island, and between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

Judging by this thread An Post got this one wrong :rolleyes:

Personally I see nothing wrong with it

Acacia

If it's celebratory, then tbh it does smack a bit of pandering to British apologists in an attempt to appear 'mature' , however if it's simply commemorating the event , I don't see the problem.

The problem is how to distinguish commeration from celebration on something as small as a stamp...

Rebelheart

994 wrote: »

All the plantation did was replace one group of oppressive landlords with another.

Written in the finest of the queen's English, bless you.

Rebelheart

The lack of historical knowledge of the "Ara sure the poor Brits weren't that bad" brigade never fails to astound. Their reasons seem to be something as simple (as in retarded) as having met/worked with/befriended somebody British and - hey presto - all Irish history must have been full of equally lovely peace-loving British people who just accidentally took control of everything in Ireland for centuries. Oh, the burden of it all must have been ferocious on the poor British, it seems.

No doubt the same people like to think they are going against nationalist myths when they embrace the nice-peace-loving- Brits-coming-to-help-the-poor-backward-wilde-Irishe myths of - surprise, surprise - British nationalism.

Well done, lads. You are clearly head and shoulders above the rest of us when it comes to, well, embracing nationalist myths.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Whats so bad with 1609 anyways?People give out about the plantations, yet wholly accept the religious conquest of Ireland prior to that. The arrival of catholicism was far worse in my opinion. Were still backwards cunts for **** sake

Rebelheart

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

history happened, and we are where we are.

This is all so profound. I'm just overwhelmed with the depth and intelligence here.

Rebelheart

Grimes wrote: »

History is neither positive or negative.

There's your problem, right there (and I'm not talking about the grammar).

DoireNod

Just adding my voice to the opposition of this stamp.

Dyr

Grimes wrote: »

History is neither positive or negative. It just happens and the result is the present. While the plantations did play a part in sectarian divisions there are numerous plantation towns all over the Republic that people who believe today to be "true Irish villages".

Thats because we did some vigorous weeding of the imported planters, thank god. We're overdue another expunging of collaborators by the looks of things.

Rebelheart

Ariyah Salty Mission wrote: »

Whats so bad with 1609 anyways?People give out about the plantations, yet wholly accept the religious conquest of Ireland prior to that. The arrival of catholicism was far worse in my opinion.

OK, you're woefully, wickedly and ferociously (;)) wrong about the importance of the plantations but, historically speaking, you could have something really good on the religious colonisation stuff.

Edit: I'm assuming you are talking about the success of the counter-reformation Catholic missionaries from the 1590s on - who were promoting what was in many respects a very different type of catholicism to Irish catholics - rather than talking about the arrival of Christian missionaries in the 5th century.

Rebelheart

MarchDub wrote: »

What gobsmacking idiot came up with the idea of a Plantation commemorative stamp?

Jim236 wrote: »

What idiot in An Post actually thought "do yeah know what we haven't celebrated in a while thats really benefitted this country"? What dope thought something which caused so many deaths, and resulted in the division and sectarianism in society across the island we see today, and more importantly the partition of this island, would be worth commemorating? .... Idiots...

Perhaps the same An Post employee who came up with that desperately cunning plan to remove the Irish placename from each post office across the state a few years ago?

Every minute, every minute there's one born.

j1smithy

I always knew An Post had Loyalist sympathies... they've never been republican since the rebels made shit of the GPO;)


I do think its a rather strange thing to put on a stamp, but it is part of our history, albeit one of the less glorious moments of it. We really do need to see a picture of it though, to find out whether its celebrating or acknowledging an event. I suspect it does the latter.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a battle of the boyne stamp released either. Again though I imagine such a potentially controversial stamp would carry a rather neutral image.

This is hardly new though, sure don't a few people get up in arms about Christian symbols on stamps every year.

Quazzie

I wonder do the French or the Polish have a stamp depicting the invasion by Germany?

Dudess

Sherifu wrote: »

Link

Can't see the harm in this really. Anyone feel as strongly as this guy about it?

/rabble :pac:

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh dear...this takes the pandering the bigots/orange order/loyalists up North to new levels...:rolleyes:

While there are certainly plenty of people down here who do indeed pander to those bigots (just check out the Politics forum especially - to me it's the Irish equivalent of Uncle Tom-ism) I think this stamp is open to interpretation. I don't know whether it's celebrating anything - it might just be commemorating... I think it's rather hysterical to compare it to WWII and insulting to those who suffered at the hands of the nazis.

El Siglo wrote: »

Do you know who will love this more than unionists or those people, that Irish revisionist historian Ruth Dudley Edwards. I say, embrace the stupid stamp just to spite unionists and all of them, and show how 'forward thinking' we are in the Republic!:D

Hmmm... Twats who try to act like Conor Cruise O'Brien et al already posture as being "forward thinking" - e.g. by scorning Bloody Sunday, you know the drill...

Ariyah Salty Mission wrote: »

Were still backwards cunts for **** sake

Could you drop this "we" business please? Thanks.

Dudess

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Coincidently enough reeling in the years of 1970 was on tonight. Thousands of Catholics burnt out of their homes by so called loyalists. They would have been planter descendents

Oh that's just terrorist talk - you're obviously an IRA supporter. That never happened - catholics were always treated wonderfully from the day partition began. Now stop insulting our loyalist superiors brethren, but feel free to voice your anger about republican atrocities.

MarchDub

Grimes wrote: »

History is neither positive or negative. It just happens and the result is the present. While the plantations did play a part in sectarian divisions there are numerous plantation towns all over the Republic that people who believe today to be "true Irish villages".

You are displaying a serious lack of knowledge of how the Plantation of Ulster was organized and how it differed significantly from what occurred in the rest of the country. The Plantation did not merely "play a part" in sectarian divisions it was DESIGNED to bring about sectarian divisions which would result - it was hoped- in driving Catholics out of the region and thereby create a population willing to be loyal to the King.

You cannot, with any degree of validity, compare it to anything that happened in the rest of country. The Parliamentary document known as "The Printed Book" spells out the precise conditions of Plantation and is unlike anything that took place anywhere else in Ireland.

While the overlords in the rest of the country were replaced by English owners the Ulster region saw the ordinary tenants driven out and replaced by Presbyterian planters. Catholics in the region became the servile farm labourers and servants of this new planter class. The Presbyterian planter tenants were given land at a fraction of the going rate and paid taxes at half the rate the rest of the country was paying. Plus they got security of tenure against random eviction which was denied tenants - mostly Catholic - in the rest of the county where eviction was rampant and a recurrent threat. Security of tenure was only achieved outside of the Ulster region in the late nineteenth century.

[font=&quot]This commemorate stamp is in my opinion an appalling insult to the Catholics of Ulster and the historic impact that the Plantation had on them. [/font]