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Plantation of Ulster stamp

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    #122
    Beanstalk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Beanstalk


    But all they're doing is remembering an event that had a huge impact on the political and social structure of Ulster, and indeed, following the flight of the Earls, the rest of Ireland.

    Did this stamp come attached with trumpets and ribbons and balloons as if it was been celebrated? I don't think it was an post's intention to deeply offend anyone.

    The plantations are part of the story of our nation, the same as the Norman invasion of England is to theirs. Coincidentally, the battle of Hastings was commemorated in Royal mail stamps before. Im not saying the effects of both conquests were similiar, but at least they can accept it was part of their history.

    I for one am glad the plantation of Ulster is being recognised as a signigicant series of events by an post, I was always disgusted in school how the plantation of Ulster was scarcely mentioned in our history books, while the laois/offaly and muster plantations got a lot more attention.

    The plantation of Ulster is an event that none of us should forget. It is not being exonerated or critized by an post, it is simply being remembered.


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    #123
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Exactly, excellent post there.


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    #124
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Plantation is a rather different thing than bombing altogether. Yes, there may have been serious human rights abuses in doing so, but it isn't comparable to doing something with the explicit intent of taking peoples lives.

    I'm sorry but to dismiss the plantation of ulster as a series "serious human rights abuses" is a disgrace. It was much more than that. It's completely comparable to a bombing. In fact, I would go as far as to say worse than a bombing.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    As for "our ancestors". I recognise that I probably am a mix of different groups which arrived in Ireland at different times genetically. I think the term "our ancestors" isn't very helpful as it is conceivable that some of our ancestors could be the very planters who came.

    Then again, I'm not particularly nationalistic in any respect.

    I think most people would recognise what I am talking about here. Hardly a debatable point. What do you want me to do - name every individual that was affected by the plantation of ulster? Would that make it clearer?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think it's not the worst thing to recall the Plantations for what they brought to Ireland, and how Ireland changed because of it.

    As I said in the previous post - I'm not opposed to the commemoration of those that died. Let's celebrate those them and not that unleashed the pain on so many.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Of course we shouldn't forget what happened, considering that it changed Ireland forever. However, I think people need to review what happened during the Plantation and try to see where other people come from in respect to it. I don't think it should be held as something that happened many years ago. This stamp isn't something that particularly angers me.

    I guess none of us know as of yet what will be on the stamp. But the simple title of "commemorate the plantation of ulster". This was a victory for the British. It's easy to turn it and call it the "commeration of those that died during the Plantation of Ulster" stamp. Then both sides of the divide can celebrate it.


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    #125
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    Beanstalk wrote: »
    But all they're doing is remembering an event that had a huge impact on the political and social structure of Ulster, and indeed, following the flight of the Earls, the rest of Ireland.

    Did this stamp come attached with trumpets and ribbons and balloons as if it was been celebrated? I don't think it was an post's intention to deeply offend anyone.

    The plantations are part of the story of our nation, the same as the Norman invasion of England is to theirs. Coincidentally, the battle of Hastings was commemorated in Royal mail stamps before. Im not saying the effects of both conquests were similiar, but at least they can accept it was part of their history.

    I for one am glad the plantation of Ulster is being recognised as a signigicant series of events by an post, I was always disgusted in school how the plantation of Ulster was scarcely mentioned in our history books, while the laois/offaly and muster plantations got a lot more attention.

    The plantation of Ulster is an event that none of us should forget. It is not being exonerated or critized by an post, it is simply being remembered.

    I haven't seen any mock ups of the stamp that's not due to be released until the 4th of September. And I guess a lot relies on what is depicted. Have you actually seen the stamp?

    If you look at Royal Mails battle of hastings commemoration stamps, they have a series of different scenes. It's not just one stamp trying to tell a story. They have different scenes, which I feel do more to commermorate those that we're killed than those who succeeded. Art can be interpreted in different ways, but they do have scenes of people having the clothes ripped off and others of being decapitated.

    As I've said in previous posts - it comes down to exactly what they are commemorating. At the moment it's a commermoration of the plantation of ulster and that's enough to offend me.

    Oh and on another note - we covered it quite a lot in our school...


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    #126
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tomED wrote: »
    I'm sorry but to dismiss the plantation of ulster as a series "serious human rights abuses" is a disgrace. It was much more than that. It's completely comparable to a bombing. In fact, I would go as far as to say worse than a bombing.

    I'll have to agree to disagree with you here. I don't consider colonisation, as bad as it may become, to be the same thing as bombing.
    tomED wrote: »
    I think most people would recognise what I am talking about here. Hardly a debatable point. What do you want me to do - name every individual that was affected by the plantation of ulster? Would that make it clearer?

    I'm just pointing out, that many of us, much more than may realise are probably descended in some way from settlers who have arrived in Ireland. Infact I would go as far as saying all of us are considering that even the first Irish had to arrive in Ireland somehow.

    As for naming every individual, that wouldn't be adequate either, because many came to Ireland with good intentions to form business and to provide a home for their families. One could attribute the malice involved to the monarchs at the time.
    tomED wrote: »
    As I said in the previous post - I'm not opposed to the commemoration of those that died. Let's celebrate those them and not that unleashed the pain on so many.

    I think just remarking on the event in itself "Plantation of Ulster" and the dates involved is enough. It should be up to the person to decide what they make of the plantations.
    tomED wrote: »
    I guess none of us know as of yet what will be on the stamp. But the simple title of "commemorate the plantation of ulster". This was a victory for the British. It's easy to turn it and call it the "commeration of those that died during the Plantation of Ulster" stamp. Then both sides of the divide can celebrate it.

    I don't see how this is important as to whether or not it was a victory for the British. I mean, do you want to take all the signs down from the M1 that point to the site of the Battle of the Boyne? We have to deal with the factual situation, it happened, it is a part of Irish history, and probably did have an impact on Irish life. If I remember correctly the Plantations brought much of the town structures we have in Ireland today if we take into account Munster, Laois - Offaly, and Ulster altogether. I don't think it is a valid assessment to say that it was entirely bad.


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    #127
    Beanstalk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Beanstalk


    tomED wrote: »
    I haven't seen any mock ups of the stamp that's not due to be released until the 4th of September. And I guess a lot relies on what is depicted. Have you actually seen the stamp?

    If you look at Royal Mails battle of hastings commemoration stamps, they have a series of different scenes. It's not just one stamp trying to tell a story. They have different scenes, which I feel do more to commermorate those that we're killed than those who succeeded. Art can be interpreted in different ways, but they do have scenes of people having the clothes ripped off and others of being decapitated.

    As I've said in previous posts - it comes down to exactly what they are commemorating. At the moment it's a commermoration of the plantation of ulster and that's enough to offend me.

    Oh and on another note - we covered it quite a lot in our school...

    No I haven't, im talking about the announcement of the stamps release. Its a commemoration, not a celebration. Would you rather that the event was ignored completely?

    With regards to Hastings, please don't take that as an attempt by me to somehow marginalise the significance of the plantation. I just said I wasn't suggesting that both events were similiar (Hastings, plantation of ulster). An post are also issuing two stamps, not one.

    And no, i don't think its covered properly in schools, particualry in the Republic, which is why the heritage sections of counties like donegal and derry have been working so hard to impress the importance of the plantation upon the younger generation with exhibitions, workshops, live enactments etc... I have worked with children in museums and Ulster and was very surprised at the lack of knowledge they displayed about the plantation of ulster and the impact it had on the province. If you did learn about it in detail in your school, then you'll be surprised at this too, but unfortunately, it seems to be the case, it certainly was ten years ago.

    Tags below are hilarious!


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    #128
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'll have to agree to disagree with you here. I don't consider colonisation, as bad as it may become, to be the same thing as bombing.

    It's strange that a christian can say that one killing is less evil than another. Both were intentional.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm just pointing out, that many of us, much more than may realise are probably descended in some way from settlers who have arrived in Ireland. Infact I would go as far as saying all of us are considering that even the first Irish had to arrive in Ireland somehow.

    As for naming every individual, that wouldn't be adequate either, because many came to Ireland with good intentions to form business and to provide a home for their families. One could attribute the malice involved to the monarchs at the time.

    Exactly why I felt it didn't need to be spelt out in detail... Most people here are intelligent enough to know where I was coming from.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think just remarking on the event in itself "Plantation of Ulster" and the dates involved is enough. It should be up to the person to decide what they make of the plantations.

    Agree with you 100%!!!!!!!
    At the moment though all we have to go on is that we are commemorating the plantation of ulster - we don't know what the stamp will depict (well I don't anyway). The simple fact that we are commemorating an event that caused so much pain to so many is offensive to some. Until I see what's on the stamp, I will continue to oppose it's issuing.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't see how this is important as to whether or not it was a victory for the British. I mean, do you want to take all the signs down from the M1 that point to the site of the Battle of the Boyne?

    That's such a bad analogy. It's not the same - the road signs don't commemorate the battle of the boyne - they show you directions to where it took place....
    Jakkass wrote: »
    We have to deal with the factual situation, it happened, it is a part of Irish history, and probably did have an impact on Irish life. If I remember correctly the Plantations brought much of the town structures we have in Ireland today if we take into account Munster, Laois - Offaly, and Ulster altogether. I don't think it is a valid assessment to say that it was entirely bad.

    I certainly never said we should forget what happened. I said the complete opposite. But there are plenty of ways to remember it and I don't agree with commermorating an event that was victorious for people that inflcited so much pain on people.

    If we look at history and how our nation was shaped, we could easily remember the attrocities caused by the IRA and see how some things changed for the better.

    Does that mean we should commerorate those bombings? Absolutely not!
    However, we should commemorate those that died.


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    #129
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    Beanstalk wrote: »
    No I haven't, im talking about the announcement of the stamps release. Its a commemoration, not a celebration. Would you rather that the event was ignored completely?

    As I've said numerous times now - no I don't think it should be ignored and I think too many people ignore it. I've made my point a number of times on this above.
    Beanstalk wrote: »
    With regards to Hastings, please don't take that as an attempt by me to somehow marginalise the significance of the plantation. I just said I wasn't suggesting that both events were similiar (Hastings, plantation of ulster). An post are also issuing two stamps, not one.

    Well you mentioned it as a comparison to what An Post are doing. If An Post do something similar, it would be a good move. As I feel these stamps tell the story of what the battle of hastings was about.


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    #130
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tomED wrote: »
    It's strange that a christian can say that one killing is less evil than another. Both were intentional.

    I don't think it is less evil. I don't see the act of building settlements in itself as being evil. I condemn every death that happened, but that doesn't mean I have to condemn the settlement along with it. It happened, and it is something we have to accept. Nations are only mere conceptual borders, I try not to get too bothered about them.
    tomED wrote: »
    Exactly why I felt it didn't need to be spelt out in detail... Most people here are intelligent enough to know where I was coming from.

    Are you implying that I amn't intelligent enough?
    tomED wrote: »
    Agree with you 100%!!!!!!!
    At the moment though all we have to go on is that we are commemorating the plantation of ulster - we don't know what the stamp will depict (well I don't anyway). The simple fact that we are commemorating an event that caused so much pain to so many is offensive to some. Until I see what's on the stamp, I will continue to oppose it's issuing.

    People are going to have to deal with that offence in their own way, it isn't a legitimate reason to not commemorate the Plantation of Ulster on our stamps.
    tomED wrote: »
    That's such a bad analogy. It's not the same - the road signs don't commemorate the battle of the boyne - they show you directions to where it took place....

    They recognise that it was a key part of Irish history, and that it was worthy of remembering. Pretty much as these stamps do.

    Kind of like how German road signs recognise Wittenberg as Lutherstadt. That could be equally offensive to people there due to the result of the Thirty Years War, yet it is still remarked upon. Why can't we have a similar recognition of the Ulster Plantations and realise that people can agree to disagree on certain issues? At least it promotes a bit of thought on the issue.
    tomED wrote: »
    I certainly never said we should forget what happened. I said the complete opposite. But there are plenty of ways to remember it and I don't agree with commermorating an event that was victorious for people that inflcited so much pain on people.

    Indeed, and I think a postal stamp is a very subtle way of remembering a key part of Irish history.
    tomED wrote: »
    If we look at history and how our nation was shaped, we could easily remember the attrocities caused by the IRA and see how some things changed for the better.

    Could we easily? I strain to. I believe political change in Ireland could have been achieved without force in many cases.
    tomED wrote: »
    Does that mean we should commerorate those bombings? Absolutely not!
    However, we should commemorate those that died.

    I've already informed you as to why I feel drawing examples between bombings and settlement is entirely different.
    tomED wrote:
    Oh and on another note - we covered it quite a lot in our school...

    We also covered the English Reformation in school, and it didn't exactly put across the most impartial image of it to say the least. Isn't it possible that this could be the case on sensitive issues like these as well?


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    #131
    Beanstalk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Beanstalk


    tomED wrote: »
    Well you mentioned it as a comparison to what An Post are doing. If An Post do something similar, it would be a good move. As I feel these stamps tell the story of what the battle of hastings was about.

    It sounds link an post are doing something similar to me, in the sense that they are commerating an event that had a large impact on thieir history, even if it did have some detrimental effects on thier society. But as you say, we can't really tell until we see the stamps. But I also think the word 'commemorate' is definitely been taken in the wrong context by a lot of people.


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    #132
    sneakerfreak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 427 ✭✭sneakerfreak


    Disgrace,absolute fúcking disgrace.

    they will be getting a letter from me as well,il stick a royal mail stamp on it because thats what anpost are to me now-Royal Mail


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    #133
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Plantation is a rather different thing than bombing altogether. Yes, there may have been serious human rights abuses in doing so


    "May have been"? I give up.


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    #134
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Beanstalk wrote: »
    It sounds link an post are doing something similar to me, in the sense that they are commerating an event that had a large impact on thieir history, even if it did have some detrimental effects on thier society.


    "Some detrimental effects"? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, people. This is nutcase revisionism.


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    #135
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    "May have been"? I give up.

    You're being a bit disingenuous with my post. I accept it as factual that there were human rights abuses involved. However, I don't view it as something black or white, that there were all negatives and no positives. I don't think that's a realistic way to look at it.


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    #136
    General Zod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭General Zod


    a simple way to protest against this rather than writing to the Irish times.

    Buy the stamp and stick it sideways onto a postcard where the franking likes will go, so that the plantations are behind bars.

    Send the postcard to whoever you like (add additional stamps if necessary).


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    #137
    Beanstalk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Beanstalk


    "Some detrimental effects"? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, people. This is nutcase revisionism.


    Whats wrong with that? the plantation had some detrimental effects, lots in fact. i know well what they are, would you like me to list some of them. once again you're taking the word 'some' the same way you're taking the word 'commemoration'. did I say something wrong? did i say it was a great thing, best thing that ever happened to Ireland or something? Is that all you can pick holes in?


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    #138
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    if you go back far enough you will find all our ancestors got their land by taking it off someone else,you can not just pick one period of time, unless you are irish they have changed the rules they like to forget the time when they ruled and divided all of britain into estates,


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    #139
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    Have the Germans released a swastika stamp?


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    #140
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Haven't we had stamps commemorating the Famine....... :confused: Why the outrage now... Doesn't seem to be a huge difference between the two tbh. But I cannot imagine the same posters here condemning An Post for issuing Famine Commemorative stamps. Important also to note that these stamps will probably be a limited issue i.e. aimed at stamp collectors and not on general release.


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    #141
    buckieburd
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭buckieburd


    Jesus, unemployment has hit 12%, there a **** loads of toxic debt floating around, we are all being taxed to the hilt, and people are moaning about a stamp?!?


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    #142
    DoireNod
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    buckieburd wrote: »
    Jesus, unemployment has hit 12%, there a **** loads of toxic debt floating around, we are all being taxed to the hilt, and people are moaning about a stamp?!?
    We moan about all those other things too, but as it happens, this is a thread about the stamp, so we're all moaning together about it here.

    When we stop expressing dislike at the things that we find to be an affront, what will we be? Docile lambs, accepting everything that is thrown at us from all corners.


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    #143
    lego
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭lego


    Beanstalk wrote: »
    It sounds link an post are doing something similar to me, in the sense that they are commerating an event that had a large impact on thieir history, even if it did have some detrimental effects on thier society. But as you say, we can't really tell until we see the stamps. But I also think the word 'commemorate' is definitely been taken in the wrong context by a lot of people.

    "some detrimental effects"?

    Our Country is still split in two. A completely unviable gerrymandered fake statelet (2/3 of Ulster, Requiring 6-7 billion GBP subvention per annum) is still maintained in the northeast of our island. Despite loyalist attempts at ethnic cleansing, 45% of the population there still consider themselves to be Irish and want nothing to do with the UK.


    Northern Ireland is a Direct result of the british plantation (colonisation) of Ulster. In terms of bad things that have happened to the indigenous population of Ireland, it is up there with the cromwellian invasion and the british-enforced "famine" at a time when we were exporting vast quantities of food.

    Note the green areas on this map that suffered least in the famine:
    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/famine_1847.gif

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Northern_Ireland_districts_by_community_make-up

    Unsurprisingly, south Antrim, north Down and the Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown area of Dublin were not badly affected.

    Bygones will be bygones when the plantation and occupation of Ulster ends.



    How another country has dealt with a similar situation to the plantations:

    When Latvia gained independence from the USSR they decided to issue Latvian Passports to people who could show that they were latvian in a citizenship test or by lineage, the others (mostly russians from the attempted russification of latvia) were given Latvian Alien's Passports.


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    #144
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't think it is less evil. I don't see the act of building settlements in itself as being evil.

    I condemn every death that happened, but that doesn't mean I have to condemn the settlement along with it. It happened, and it is something we have to accept. Nations are only mere conceptual borders, I try not to get too bothered about them.


    Right so - if you were in power, you'd be happy to invade other countries, because you don't think it's wrong... Well I do. You can pretty it up all you like, total injustice was forced upon people of the land. That's not right.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Are you implying that I amn't intelligent enough?

    Cmon - even you know that wasn't what I was implying, but you're good at turning things around.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    People are going to have to deal with that offence in their own way, it isn't a legitimate reason to not commemorate the Plantation of Ulster on our stamps.

    In your opinion... It deeply offends me - does that make me wrong and you right?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    They recognise that it was a key part of Irish history, and that it was worthy of remembering. Pretty much as these stamps do.

    Kind of like how German road signs recognise Wittenberg as Lutherstadt. That could be equally offensive to people there due to the result of the Thirty Years War, yet it is still remarked upon. Why can't we have a similar recognition of the Ulster Plantations and realise that people can agree to disagree on certain issues? At least it promotes a bit of thought on the issue.

    Again, road signs are completely different - they are indications not commemorations.

    Would Germany ever allow a stamp be issued to commermorate Hitler?

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Could we easily? I strain to. I believe political change in Ireland could have been achieved without force in many cases.

    Yes we could easily - take any significant event. You can see how they were catalysts in the move towards peace.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I've already informed you as to why I feel drawing examples between bombings and settlement is entirely different.

    But you make no sense - you feel it's different but don't explain why. It's not different - both were intentional in there taking of lives.
    Beanstalk wrote: »
    It sounds link an post are doing something similar to me, in the sense that they are commerating an event that had a large impact on thieir history, even if it did have some detrimental effects on thier society. But as you say, we can't really tell until we see the stamps. But I also think the word 'commemorate' is definitely been taken in the wrong context by a lot of people.

    I agree - and I hope they do something along the lines of the Royal Mails approach. If they do, I believe they should be commended - but at the moment - we really don't know what's coming!
    prinz wrote: »
    Haven't we had stamps commemorating the Famine....... :confused: Why the outrage now... Doesn't seem to be a huge difference between the two tbh. But I cannot imagine the same posters here condemning An Post for issuing Famine Commemorative stamps. Important also to note that these stamps will probably be a limited issue i.e. aimed at stamp collectors and not on general release.

    The famine stamps remembered those that died.
    buckieburd wrote: »
    Jesus, unemployment has hit 12%, there a **** loads of toxic debt floating around, we are all being taxed to the hilt, and people are moaning about a stamp?!?

    Ah ignorance is bliss isn't it!


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    #145
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    we can always bring out a stamp so we can remember the abuse of children and young girls in the republic in a few years time,we will remember them,


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    #146
    Beanstalk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Beanstalk


    lego wrote: »
    "some detrimental effects"?

    Our Country is still split in two. A completely unviable gerrymandered fake statelet (2/3 of Ulster, Requiring 6-7 billion GBP subvention per annum) is still maintained in the northeast of our island. Despite loyalist attempts at ethnic cleansing, 45% of the population there still consider themselves to be Irish and want nothing to do with the UK.


    Northern Ireland is a Direct result of the british plantation (colonisation) of Ulster. In terms of bad things that have happened to the indigenous population of Ireland, it is up there with the cromwellian invasion the british-enforced "famine" at a time when we were exporting vast quantities of food.

    Note the green areas on this map that suffered least in the famine:
    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/famine_1847.gif

    Unsurprisingly, south Antrim, north Down and the Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown area of Dublin were not badly affected.

    Bygones will be bygones when the plantation and occupation of Ulster ends.



    How another country has dealt with a similar situation to the plantations:

    When Latvia gained independence from the USSR they decided to issue Latvian Passports to people who could show that they were latvian in a citizenship test or by lineage, the others (mostly russians from the attempted russification of latvia) were given Latvian Alien's Passports.

    Look, i said the plantation had some detrimental effects. I used the word 'detrimental' because I wanted to convey how awful the effects were. If you want me to say 'a lot' instead of 'some' then thats fine by me, im not disagreeing with you. I was comparing the idea of commoratve events carried out in a neutral manner, i wasn't belittling the significance of the plantation.


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    #147
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tomED wrote: »
    Right so - if you were in power, you'd be happy to invade other countries, because you don't think it's wrong... Well I do. You can pretty it up all you like, total injustice was forced upon people of the land. That's not right.

    I have no business in invading any country. I don't think I would take a position of power in the very first place. However, whether or not land is in the hands of one nation or another is really arbitrary to me.

    I'm not denying that the English abused the human rights of the Irish in any respect. I just don't believe we should look to one bias as a viewing glass on the past. Some people think that my viewpoint on history could be seen as revisionist, and yes, I'd agree it is, sometimes revisionism is justified to clear our minds of any bias that may have been put there. Finding a via media between the Irish perspective, and the perspective of those in Northern Ireland on the history is perhaps the most beneficial for both sides.

    The great thing about this stamp is it merely draws attention to the event, allowing for people to discern for themselves how they want to understand it.
    tomED wrote: »
    Cmon - even you know that wasn't what I was implying, but you're good at turning things around.

    Hence why I included the question mark. I apologise if I took you wrongly.
    tomED wrote: »
    In your opinion... It deeply offends me - does that make me wrong and you right?

    Offence isn't a good enough reason to not recognise what happened in the past.
    tomED wrote: »
    Again, road signs are completely different - they are indications not commemorations.

    Of course they aren't different, they draw attention to the fact that this battle happened here. The signs are there so that people can remember the event. Just as the stamp will be there to subtly remind people of the past here in Ireland.
    tomED wrote: »
    Would Germany ever allow a stamp be issued to commermorate Hitler?

    Perhaps to commemorate Nazi Germany, and the impact that it had on Germany. There's a difference between remembering and glorifying. If this can be done in an impartial manner, it serves as a benefit to provoke discussion.
    tomED wrote: »
    Yes we could easily - take any significant event. You can see how they were catalysts in the move towards peace.

    I find it rather difficult. Many actions of militants in the early 20th century did not promote any move towards peace, such as the Irish Civil War.
    tomED wrote: »
    But you make no sense - you feel it's different but don't explain why. It's not different - both were intentional in there taking of lives.

    I have explained this thoroughly. In terms of the settlers the intention was not to massacre or kill Irish people. Most of the Scots who came over wanted new life somewhere else, a place to start up business and to make a living. No doubt many didn't expect the situation they arrived to.

    As for Government, I would agree with you that there were many sinister plans involved.
    tomED wrote: »
    I agree - and I hope they do something along the lines of the Royal Mails approach. If they do, I believe they should be commended - but at the moment - we really don't know what's coming!

    Perhaps it would be prudent to wait and see before complaining about it.
    tomED wrote: »
    Ah ignorance is bliss isn't it!

    Is it ignorance? Stamps are a rather trivial thing indeed.


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    #148
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    getz wrote: »
    we can always bring out a stamp so we can remember the abuse of children and young girls in the republic in a few years time,we will remember them,

    There's already plans for a commerative statue - but again, it will focus on those that have been affected and not the perpetrators.


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    #149
    RHunce
    Registered Users Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭RHunce


    thank christ for email


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    #150
    tomED
    Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭tomED


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I have no business in invading any country. I don't think I would take a position of power in the very first place. However, whether or not land is in the hands of one nation or another is really arbitrary to me.

    I'm not denying that the English abused the human rights of the Irish in any respect. I just don't believe we should look to one bias as a viewing glass on the past. Some people think that my viewpoint on history could be seen as revisionist, and yes, I'd agree it is, sometimes revisionism is justified to clear our minds of any bias that may have been put there. Finding a via media between the Irish perspective, and the perspective of those in Northern Ireland on the history is perhaps the most beneficial for both sides.

    Yet you think bombing people to death is worse than people being killed for standing up for their rights. Fair enough... I don't agree.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The great thing about this stamp is it merely draws attention to the event, allowing for people to discern for themselves how they want to understand it.

    And the bad thing about a stamp is that it's not enough to tell all sides of the story.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Hence why I included the question mark. I apologise if I took you wrongly.

    No I didn't - I wouldn't take offence from a remark like that.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Offence isn't a good enough reason to not recognise what happened in the past.

    I don't know why I have to state this again - but so be it.
    I've been constantly asking for people to recognise what happened in the past. If people rememebered the true attrocity of what happened, maybe they would be so happy about it being commemorated. Too many people just don't care.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Of course they aren't different, they draw attention to the fact that this battle happened here. The signs are there so that people can remember the event. Just as the stamp will be there to subtly remind people of the past here in Ireland.

    No the signs are there only to point you to where it is - a road sign isn't for any other reason - surely you were aware of this??
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Perhaps to commemorate Nazi Germany, and the impact that it had on Germany. There's a difference between remembering and glorifying. If this can be done in an impartial manner, it serves as a benefit to provoke discussion.

    Ludicrous.... Germany will never release a stamp in that vein.

    But I agree that there is a difference between remembering and glorifying. And that is the point. It all comes down to what this stamp will actually commemorate - if it is taking sides in any fashion, it will only leave one side of the divide offended.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    I find it rather difficult. Many actions of militants in the early 20th century did not promote any move towards peace, such as the Irish Civil War.

    All the events in the past have led us to where we are today - as much as you'd like to be ignorant about it. They've all made a difference in how things are handled.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    I have explained this thoroughly. In terms of the settlers the intention was not to massacre or kill Irish people. Most of the Scots who came over wanted new life somewhere else, a place to start up business and to make a living. No doubt many didn't expect the situation they arrived to.

    As for Government, I would agree with you that there were many sinister plans involved.

    Em no - their initial intention may not have been to take lives, but when they held up their weapons to kill someone - that was intentional. There's absolutely no excuse for it as much as you'd like one.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Perhaps it would be prudent to wait and see before complaining about it.

    Agreed.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Is it ignorance? Stamps are a rather trivial thing indeed.

    This related to the post where the guy wanted to discuss NAMA and everything else that is going on in our economy.... That's ignorance towards this subject.


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    #151
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    can someone please explain why this is causing so much fuss and yet the flight of the earls stamps did not?


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