Is Aid killing Africa

prinz

random.stranger wrote: »

Wasn't there a similar quote towards Ireland in it's colonial past?

You're point being? Have you even read my posts?

random.stranger wrote: »

Ireland has a far more progressive aid policy (a lot of money by government goes to NGO's, who have a large impact on the ground & bypass government). I have seen first hand modest amounts of money changing the lives of many. We should be proud of what we are doing in Africa.

You realise that some of the best known NGO's have to pay their way into certain countries and areas So they end up paying protection money to the very people who have put the refugees into camps in the first place, which results in a vicious circle and nothing changes.

Edit: Just a quick comparison, after the second world war in Europe, much on the continent was in ruins, milions dead, economies non-existant etc. Yet within a decade the place was booming again. The Marshall Aid was accepted, put to good use,and the populations of Europe worked themselves to the bone to get things working, efficient and moving. There has been no comparative leap forward in any sub Saharan African country despite billions in development aid, machinery, food, technical advice etc etc etc. Why not?

waraf

prinz wrote: »

Edit: Just a quick comparison, after the second world war in Europe, much on the continent was in ruins, milions dead, economies non-existant etc. Yet within a decade the place was booming again. The Marshall Aid was accepted, put to good use,and the populations of Europe worked themselves to the bone to get things working, efficient and moving. There has been no comparative leap forward in any sub Saharan African country despite billions in development aid, machinery, food, technical advice etc etc etc. Why not?

You're not seriously comparing the tribal, vastly illiterate, politically unstable nations of sub-saharan Africa with Europe are you?

walshb

prinz wrote: »

You realise that some of the best known NGO's have to pay their way into certain countries and areas

Their way? Hey, it's not their bloody money they are using, it's ours. Taxpayers paying millions for these rackets

prinz

waraf wrote: »

You're not seriously comparing the tribal, vastly illiterate, politically unstable nations of sub-saharan Africa with Europe are you?

So now you agree with me that the trouble with Africa is the Africans? And yes I was.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

So now you agree with me that the trouble with Africa is the Africans? And yes I was.

Jaysus we're going round in circles here! Of course I don't agree with your patently ridiculous statement. The trouble with Africa is political instability amongst many other things.
Looking at a third world continent that contains countries that aren't even recognised by their own inhabitants (I'm referring to the countries divided up by the colonial powers here) that in many cases contain a vastly illiterate population that have been downtrodden by successively corrupt and violent poitical leaders and complaining that they don't use financial aid in the same way as an educated, politically stable, socially cohesive and lawful continent did is utterly laughable. It's comparing apples to oranges mate.

walshb

waraf wrote: »

Jaysus we're going round in circles here! Of course I don't agree with your patently ridiculous statement. The trouble with Africa is political instability amongst many other things.
Looking at a third world continent that contains countries that aren't even recognised by their own inhabitants (I'm referring to the countries divided up by the colonial powers here) that in many cases contain a vastly illiterate population that have been downtrodden by successively corrupt and violent poitical leaders and complaining that they don't use financial aid in the same way as an educated, politically stable, socially cohesive and lawful continent did is utterly laughable. It's comparing apples to oranges mate.

Yes, violent African leaders and corrupt African governments. No matter what spin you put on it, it's Africans who are the trouble, and with the Western interference, it's exacerbated.
Everyone is gettin' rich off Africa, and mostly those who are claiming to be helping!

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Yes, violent African leaders and corrupt African governments. No matter what spin you put on it, it's Africans who are the trouble, and with the Western interference, it's exacerbated.

Give it a rest. We've been over this. Americans are the problem with America, Asians are the problem in Asia etc. It's nonsensical. Let it go

Everyone is gettin' rich off Africa, and mostly those who are claiming to be helping!

What?? You think NGO's are getting rich?

.

walshb

waraf wrote: »

.

Hey, you might not want to admit it, but an NGO is a business and it pays wages and folks ain't doin' this sh1t for the love of Africans. Only a mug would believe they are.
It's a paying job like any other.

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Hey, you might not want to admit it, but an NGO is a business and it pays wages and folks ain't doin' this sh1t for the love of Africans. Only a mug would believe they are.
It's a paying job like any other.

Jaysus, OF COURSE they pay wages. How are they supposed to get people to work for them full time if they don't pay them? They are a non-profit making business which means that they cover their staff and admin costs and everything else is used to help those in need. If you really knew people who worked for NGO's you would know that their wages don't compare favourably with the private sector either.

walshb

waraf wrote: »

Jaysus, OF COURSE they pay wages. How are they supposed to get people to work for them full time if they don't pay them? They are a non-profit making business which means that they cover their staff and admin costs and everything else is used to help those in need. If you really knew people who worked for NGO's you would know that their wages don't compare favourably with the private sector either.

Well, I would be very skeptical of a lot of these NGOs travelling thousands of miles to "help their fellow human beings." These organisations are receiving millions and millions every year and when this type of money is being thrown around, it is a damn certainty that folks will exploit it, not all, but a damn few. Who exactly is monitoring it all. How transparent is it.

I can bet if there was ever a sniff of wrong doing, the person doing the accusing would be quickly shut up. We can't ever question the do gooder charities, that would be wrong!:rolleyes:

prinz

waraf wrote: »

Jaysus we're going round in circles here! Of course I don't agree with your patently ridiculous statement. The trouble with Africa is political instability amongst many other things.
Looking at a third world continent that contains countries that aren't even recognised by their own inhabitants (I'm referring to the countries divided up by the colonial powers here) that in many cases contain a vastly illiterate population that have been downtrodden by successively corrupt and violent poitical leaders and complaining that they don't use financial aid in the same way as an educated, politically stable, socially cohesive and lawful continent did is utterly laughable. It's comparing apples to oranges mate.

And why has nothing changed or improved? Like I said many sub-Saharan African countries have actually regressed :eek: So something is going wrong. It's a black hole for cash, and nothing will actually change until it changes from the bottom up. The problems can be alleviated by outsiders and aid but they will never be remedied until mentalities, outlooks and attitudes on the ground change, and aid doesn't change them. Your idea is to keep pumping aid into maintaining the rapidly increasing

population that have been downtrodden by successively corrupt and violent poitical leaders

among the

the tribal, vastly illiterate, politically unstable nations of sub-saharan Africa

. So after decades of aid and support things have gotten worse. Time to start rethinking.

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Well, I would be very skeptical of a lot of these NGOs travelling thousands of miles to "help their fellow human beings." These organisations are receiving millions and millions every year and when this type of money is being thrown around, it is a damn certainty that folks will exploit it, not all, but a damn few. Who exactly is monitoring it all. How transparent is it.

I can bet if there was ever a sniff of wrong doing, the person doing the accusing would be quickly shut up. We can't ever question the do gooder charities, that would be wrong!:rolleyes:

Wow you are a cynic! NGO's are completely transparent. All of their accounts are publicly available and every penny they spend has to be justified. They are well aware that they must be completely transparent so that the public can see that everything they do is above board and therefore the people that donate money know that their donation is being used for what it was intended. They are closely monitored in that every country that an NGO works in will allocate that country director a budget which he/she must account for. All projects must receive at least three tender prices (in Concern anyway) and the cheapest one is obviously selected. The spending is monitored at home in Ireland and ratified by a committee. The money that the Irish government gives to the NGO's must be accounted for too and NGO's liaise very closely with the government to ensure that the public money is being spent on the right sort of projects.
Seriously man, these are people who saw people dyig in remote parts of the world and said to themselves "wait a minute, why should they be dying over there when we've got the medicines freely available to stop it". Not only did these people recognise that but they go up off their holes, set up a charuty organisation, raised some money and went over there to stop the needless deaths. I can't believe you have a problem with it...

waraf

prinz wrote: »

And why has nothing changed or improved? Like I said many sub-Saharan African countries have actually regressed :eek: So something is going wrong. It's a black hole for cash, and nothing will actually change until it changes from the bottom up. The problems can be alleviated by outsiders and aid but they will never be remedied until mentalities, outlooks and attitudes on the ground change, and aid doesn't change them. Your idea is to keep pumping aid into maintaining the rapidly increasing among the . So after decades of aid and support things have gotten worse. Time to start rethinking.

Yes they have regressed since the end of colonialism but what else would you expect? The colonial powers tried to model these countries on European countries and imposed European laws. They enforced these laws with large military forces and extreme brutality. When they pulled out they left countries in tatters with no-one enforcing the laws that they had imposed. Result - lawlessness, rebellion and a clamour for power.

I do agree with you on one thing that it is time to rethink. Not whether we should send aid or not but rather how we administer that aid.

Joey the lips

Yes i read that article to. A fab pce of work. You should have posted it in politics though, you might have gotten a more serious discussion

http://www.sbpost.ie/agenda/continental-divide-43565.html

Link for those interested.

There is only one sunday paper and thats this paper!

walshb

And every freaking week a new charity is being formed, but it's not with their money. They are pleading for money from others and from the tax payer. If they really are so damn genuine, then do it but don't be begging for wasted money from me. Because, most of the time they are interfering and trying to take over the affairs of villages in other countries.
The big Chief from Eire will sort it all out:rolleyes: And we will get loads of money from the Irish government, anything you need, the Irish will provide it. Pity they don't adopt this attitude for the Crumlin childrens' hospital

walshb

It's like the Elephant in the Room, aid to Africa is a multi billion dollar business.
It's all about money and when vast amounts of money are involved, you get vast amounts of corruption, from all sides. That article is very good

waraf

walshb wrote: »

And every freaking week a new charity is being formed, but it's not with their money. They are pleading for money from others and from the tax payer. If they really are so damn genuine, then do it but don't be begging for wasted money from me. Because, most of the time they are interfering and trying to take over the affairs of villages in other countries.
The big Chief from Eire will sort it all out:rolleyes: And we will get loads of money from the Irish government, anything you need, the Iris will provide it. Pity they don't adopt this attitude for the Crumlin childrens' hospital

The foreign aid budget and the budget allocated by the HSE to Crumlin Hospital are separate issues. The foreign aid budget was slashed drastically this year due to the recession.
Yes there are a myriad of charities but only a handful in Ireland who are committed to overseas work. They get an allocation of money from the Irish government (and by the way we are not on target to meet our commitment of 0.7% of our GDP) just like NGO's in different EU countries get allocations from their governments.
It appears that you're basing your opinions on your own assumptions rather than cold hard facts.

walshb

waraf wrote: »

The foreign aid budget and the budget allocated by the HSE to Crumlin Hospital are separate issues. The foreign aid budget was slashed drastically this year due to the recession.
Yes there are a myriad of charities but only a handful in Ireland who are committed to overseas work. They get an allocation of money from the Irish government (and by the way we are not on target to meet our commitment of 0.7% of our GDP) just like NGO's in different EU countries get allocations from their governments.
It appears that you're basing your opinions on your own assumptions rather than cold hard facts.

And I hope to god we never reach that target. If only we could shut Bono and Robinson
and Geldof up for a while. Raping this country of money to ship to Africa. Not their money may I add! Hey, you make good points and debate very civilly.

waraf

Joey the lips wrote: »

http://www.sbpost.ie/agenda/continental-divide-43565.html

As Tom Arnold says in the article: "Not all aid is good, and big mistakes have been made in the past. But I think it’s mad to jump from that and arrive at the conclusion that aid should be done away with. That is not borne out by any evidence"

prinz

That's a good article there from the SBP. Sums things up nicely tbh. $2 trillion dollars, and nothing has improved.

Robert Calderisi, a 30-year veteran of the international development community who has spent most of his career working on African issues for the World Bank ,proposes in his book, The Trouble with Africa: Why Foreign Aid Isn’t Working, that all but five African countries should be denied aid unless they accept ‘‘political and economic supervision’’ - hmmm supervision by who I wonder... could it be that's exactly what I was saying. Leaving them to their own devices didn't work. Throwing money at the problem didn't work. It's time someone else ran these countries and made a proper change. Intellectual and repsonsible-colonialism.

waraf

walshb wrote: »

And I hope to god we never reach that target. If only we could shut Bono and Robinson
and Geldof up for a while. Raping this country of money to ship to Africa. Not their money may I add! Hey, you make good points and debate very civilly.

"Raping" is a little harsh. Our elected officials voluntarily agreed to meet the target of 0.7% of GDP along with many other elected officials from the first world. If you don't like it you can always take to the streets and protest outside Leinster house with a big placard. You might even get on TV

walshb

waraf wrote: »

As Tom Arnold says in the article: "Not all aid is good, and big mistakes have been made in the past. But I think it’s mad to jump from that and arrive at the conclusion that aid should be done away with. That is not borne out by any evidence"

Of course our Tom will say that, isn't Tom on a mega wage with this racket!
He's rakin' in money from his role.

If he and others really want to be taken seriously about helping the poor of the world, then they should forgo their salary and live off the bare necessities. Why would a man preaching about poverty and giving need a six
figure sum to do so? The damn cheek of his likes.

Mother Theresa, now there was someone genuine.

walshb

waraf wrote: »

"Raping" is a little harsh. Our elected officials voluntarily agreed to meet the target of 0.7% of GDP along with many other elected officials from the first world. If you don't like it you can always take to the streets and protest outside Leinster house with a big placard. You might even get on TV

Well, there are children here in Ireland who aren't being allocated vital funds, but whenever the issue of Africa comes up, the cheque book is whipped out quick fast

waraf

prinz wrote: »

That's a good article there from the SBP. Sums things up nicely tbh. $2 trillion dollars, and nothing has improved.

Robert Calderisi, a 30-year veteran of the international development community who has spent most of his career working on African issues for the World Bank ,proposes in his book, The Trouble with Africa: Why Foreign Aid Isn’t Working, that all but five African countries should be denied aid unless they accept ‘‘political and economic supervision’’

I think this thread is suffering from the same problem that the article mentions.....

"Both sides have some legitimacy in their arguments, but it’s the simplicity that Moyo has brought to it that is the dangerous thing," he says. ‘‘We are working in countries caught in a deep poverty trap, and there is no way in the world that they are going to get out of that in the short term. Aid, so long as it is targeted within a sensible policy framework, has a role to play."

‘An artificially polarised debate is dysfunctional," says Collier. ‘‘I find some of the stuff a bit theatrical, and perhaps deliberately so. People are overstating their positions to draw attention to their message..."

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Well, there are children here in Ireland who aren't being allocated vital funds, but whenever the issue of Africa comes up, the cheque book is whipped out quick fast

Not so. As I mentioned earlier the foreign aid budget was one of the first things to get slashed when the govt. figured out that money was getting tight. The children in Crumlin Hospital are suffering because the HSE is a big lumbering behemoth that wastes money at an unbelievable rate. Two billion a year and I still have to pay out almost a thousand euro a year for medical insurance. Sorry that's a grievance for another thread...

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Of course our Tom will say that, isn't Tom on a mega wage with this racket!
He's rakin' in money from his role.

If he and others really want to be taken seriously about helping the poor of the world, then they should forgo their salary and live off the bare necessities. Why would a man preaching about poverty and giving need a six
figure sum to do so? The damn cheek of his likes.

Mother Theresa, now there was someone genuine.

So we're back to this again. Yes concern pays wages but a lot less than what people are paid in the private sector therefore Tom is paid very well compared to you and me but he's also the CEO of a very large international organisation that deals with heads of state and big money players like Bill Gates on a regular basis. That's not something many people can do successfully (otherwise we'd all be pushing for CEO positions). For example, the head of CRH in Ireland is on over 2 million a year (2.7 million if memory serves). Tom doesn't even earn a tenth of that.

walshb

waraf wrote: »

Not so. As I mentioned earlier the foreign aid budget was one of the first things to get slashed when the govt. figured out that money was getting tight. The children in Crumlin Hospital are suffering because the HSE is a big lumbering behemoth that wastes money at an unbelievable rate. Two billion a year and I still have to pay out almost a thousand euro a year for medical insurance. Sorry that's a grievance for another thread...

Your argument about waste can also be easily applied to the millions wasted on Africa, squandered and robbed. See, when we are cut here, it's the, "well, it's our fault and we are wasters."

Okay, I can apply this to Africa too. So, if it's okay for our children to be denied life saving treatment, then it should be okay that we also deny children from other countries this 'life saving treatment.'

Overseas aid was barely bloody touched and as it stands, it's far too much.
I remember well the cuts and when the topic of Africa came up, those in power were
up in arms about it. "Leave the poor Africans alone, it's not their fault."

Well, leave the Irish children alone, it's not their fault either! It works both ways.

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Your argument about waste can also be easily applied to the millions wasted on Africa, squandered and robbed. See, when we are cut here, it's the, "well, it's our fault and we are wasters."

Yes money gets wasted in Africa you only have to look at the UN and see the hugely inflated wages it pays its employees on the ground in Africa and the untold sums it wastes through bureaucracy. We need to work on this just as much as the HSE does.

Okay, I can apply this to Africa too. So, if it's okay for our children to be denied life saving treatment, then it should be okay that we also deny children from other countries this 'life saving treatment.'

In no way have I implied directly or otherwise in any of my posts that it is ok to let children suffer either here or in Africa. In fact my whole argument is based on th premise that no children should suffer anywhere when we have the ability to help them.

Overseas aid was barely bloody touched and as it stands, it's far too much.
I remember well the cuts and when the topic of Africa came up, those in power were
up in arms about it. "Leave the poor Africans alone, it's not their fault."

Well, leave the Irish children alone, it's not their fault either! It works both ways.

A cut of 45 million euro is a huge amount especially when you see what can be bought for that amount of money in a third world country. Concern have had to pull out of three countries this year because they don't have the money to continue working there. It's easy to say don't punish the Irish children but African children are dying from malnutrition and treatable diseases. How many died as a result of the 45 million euro shortfall this year?

.

Joey the lips

waraf wrote: »

As Tom Arnold says in the article: "Not all aid is good, and big mistakes have been made in the past. But I think it’s mad to jump from that and arrive at the conclusion that aid should be done away with. That is not borne out by any evidence"

Oh yes it is.... You post this article in the economics page and any economist will tell you all the evidence you want.

I however am of the opinion that we cannot do nothing. Although i do find it very funny sometimes that we allow aid to be siphoned off in verious countries that it goes to and the slightest hint of fraud in our own and we want the people deported.

I think aid is good but as to regulating aid we have our priorities all screwed up.

Hagar

I always thought that instead of giving say €10 million in aid to some country we should send them €10 million worth of aid goods, tents, foodstuffs etc, that have been made in Ireland. They get what they need, Ireland gets employment and all that money circulates in our economy not some warlords bank account.