Is Aid killing Africa

waraf

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Yes Aid is killing Africa big time, take Ethiopia for example the population in 1983 was 33 million and now it is 86 million:eek:, and this country complains about starvation, there is no point in collecting money and feeding these people when they will have 15 kids who in 20 years time will be starving again, its a vicious circle and you are only prolonging the agony. Africans need to help themselves and get rid of corrupt goverments and practice family planning, the rest of the world cant be there to support them and its as simple as that, I never give money to any African chaity now and i know a good few people who think the same.

Ethiopians complain about starvation because their country frequently experiences extended periods of drought. The population of Ireland has more than doubled since 1953 link so their population is increasing a lot slower than ours. Also, do you want to penalise poor and under educated people who have no access to contraception and family planning advice for having more than one kid? In tough times (tougher than we ever have to experience) the only comfort a man and a woman may have is each other. You're perfectly entitled not to donate money to any charity but please don't post on here with ridiculous uninformed drivel trying to justify your decision to do so.

JONJO THE MISER

:rolleyes: Aww yes u forget to mention that Eth is also one of the most fertile nations on earth and could be the bread basket of Europe, but yet there have people starving, if they cant harness what they have got then thats there tough luck and i wont be helping them, look at Zimbabwe when it was Rhodesia it was a first world country but since they have forced all those evil white farmers out it is now a basketcase, it had some of the best Infastructure in the world now its collapsing, and we should help countiries like these, your having a laugh.

waraf

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

:rolleyes: Aww yes u forget to mention that Eth is also one of the most fertile nations on earth and could be the bread basket of Europe, but yet there have people starving, if they cant harness what they have got then thats there tough luck and i wont be helping them, look at Zimbabwe when it was Rhodesia it was a first world country but since they have forced all those evil white farmers out it is now a basketcase, it had some of the best Infastructure in the world now its collapsing, and we should help countiries like these, your having a laugh.

Yes there are people dying in Ethiopia (there was a drought there last year) but it is one of the fastest growing economies in Africa and since the last war with Eritrea things have settled down cosiderably. They can't harness their potential yet because they don't have the investment necessary to fully expolit it. With the help of foreign aid and expertise thay are learning how to do it though so I'm glad when I see investment from Ireland taking root in Ethiopia.

It seems that you think colonialsim was a perfectly workable solution to the African problem and if those silly locals in Zimbabwe had just left all those nice kind white farmers in place everythig would be grand. Who's having a laugh?? A tiny percentage of white people controlled over 90% of the wealth and employed slave labour to work their farms. These white farmers were relieved of their land and the land was redistributed to the locals. If you know you're Irish history you'll know that Dev did somethig similar with the land commission.
Yes the infrastructure is collapsing and unfortunately Robert Mugabe's methods are just as brutal as his colonial predecessors and he has no compassion for his own people but Zimbabwe is trying to improve and with our help maybe real change can be achieved. Maybe with enough foreign aid and political influenece the next elections in Zimbabwe won't be as farcial as the last and a proper democratically elected government will be installed.

bakkiesbotha

The West needs Africa to be messed up. Letting them govern themselves is the best way to guarantee this. When we all begin to run out of space / food, Africa will be there for the taking. We don't want them to be civilised.

waraf

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

The West needs Africa to be messed up. Letting them govern themselves is the best way to guarantee this. When we all begin to run out of space / food, Africa will be there for the taking. We don't want them to be civilised.

Is this a wind up?

Goose81

There was a book written by a women who originally came from Zimbawe,she is now an econamist with merrill Lynch in the US,her book goes into huge detail about why giving aid is killing the country and that all aid should be stopped.

I presume it would mean debt would be wiped off or at least payments halted for a while.

Her main points were that there is simply too many people in Africa and some need to be alowed to die as bad as it sounds,the other was that they will never learn to do anything when they are just handed aid and that corrupt governments steal alot of the aid.

Skills are better than aid,they will never learn unless they are forced to.

waraf

Goose81 wrote: »

There was a book written by a women who originally came from Zimbawe,she is now an econamist with merrill Lynch in the US,her book goes into huge detail about why giving aid is killing the country and that all aid should be stopped.

I presume it would mean debt would be wiped off or at least payments halted for a while.

Her main points were that there is simply too many people in Africa and some need to be alowed to die as bad as it sounds,the other was that they will never learn to do anything when they are just handed aid and that corrupt governments steal alot of the aid.

Skills are better than aid,they will never learn unless they are forced to.

I strongly disagree but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I remember reading a quote from a former West African president which went along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "war, famine and disease are nature's way of controlling the population of my country" This from a man living off the proceeds of a corrupt and brutal regime. Sickening.

DrumSteve

I'll think you'll find that its AIDS thats killing it.

Iwasfrozen

KerranJast wrote: »

The main problem I see is Aid is used to prop up populations in terrible areas for human development. If there's continual drought in a region that prevents farming thats natures way of natural selection. The population should migrate to better areas not rely on handouts to survive.

Isn't that where white people came form ?

PaulieD

I remember reading about a well known Dublin criminal who was around in the early 90's. When he was locked up he said something like, "if you think we where bad, wait until you see who is coming up next".

For me, that sums up the African situation, under colonialism, the Africans where treated appalingly by the white rulers, but they were not half as bad as Mugabe and his ilk.

It is a catch 22 situation, if you cut aid, people will die. But if you continue to pour aid into Africa, they will continue to breed more children, thus extending the problem. In effect, by supplying Africa with aid, we are handing our future generations a smoking gun to deal with. This issue will not go away and has to be dealt with.

PS there are some Africans on boards, it would be nice to hear their views. After all, nobody would no the situation better than them.

Poor Uncle Tom

RIP AFRICA 1985.

All
Is
Done,
Slan.

thomond2006

Ah, it's AIDS that is killing Africa.




Edit: Well, I was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too late.

waraf

PaulieD wrote: »

I remember reading about a well known Dublin criminal who was around in the early 90's. When he was locked up he said something like, "if you think we where bad, wait until you see who is coming up next".

For me, that sums up the African situation, under colonialism, the Africans where treated appalingly by the white rulers, but they were not half as bad as Mugabe and his ilk.

It is a catch 22 situation, if you cut aid, people will die. But if you continue to pour aid into Africa, they will continue to breed more children, thus extending the problem. In effect, by supplying Africa with aid, we are handing our future generations a smoking gun to deal with. This issue will not go away and has to be dealt with.

PS there are some Africans on boards, it would be nice to hear their views. After all, nobody would no the situation better than them.

I think you should look into what the colonists actually did while they were there. Easily as bad as Mugabe, Mobutu etc. and in some cases worse. Check out Luxembourg's history in DRC for a start. Be warned, it doesn't make for pleasant reading....

prinz

waraf wrote: »

It seems that you think colonialsim was a perfectly workable solution to the African problem and if those silly locals in Zimbabwe had just left all those nice kind white farmers in place everythig would be grand. Who's having a laugh?? A tiny percentage of white people controlled over 90% of the wealth and employed slave labour to work their farms. These white farmers were relieved of their land and the land was redistributed to the locals. If you know you're Irish history you'll know that Dev did somethig similar with the land commission.

You're wildly off base here. In most places where estates and farms were run the workers were not "slave labour" and were much much better off than anyone else in the country. I have family connections to a farm in South Africa and the evil white owners controlling this farm have done more for the people who work for them than any NGO or aid donor ever will. Their staff live in decent houses - as good as any built in Ireland during the boom, with water electricity etc all mod cons, tvs, computers, dishwashers etc - compared to the shanty towns.... They built a school on their land for the children of workers and have 2 full time teachers on staff. The son of one of the workers who they educated on their farm and paid for university for is a doctor and runs the farms medical clinic. The workers get paid far better wages than the average industrial wage in SA. It's no coincidence that they have people queuing day in day out begging for a job.

What happened in Zimbabwe is most of the productive land has been destroyed. Land redistribution is all well and good except that the arable land was ruined. There are countless accounts of what actually happened. Farm machinery stolen or destroyed, farm houses and outbuildings burned to the ground, orchards cut down and used for firewood or simply burned where they stood, many Zimbabwean locals who worked the farms were murdered trying to protect their livelihoods, wells were destroyed, livestock were killed and left to rot. What happened was the owners were ousted, the farm workers were driven off the land,and control was giving to people who had (a) no interest in keeping the land going as viable farmland and (b) no experience or knowledge of how to work these farms.

waraf wrote: »

Yes the infrastructure is collapsing and unfortunately Robert Mugabe's methods are just as brutal as his colonial predecessors and he has no compassion for his own people but Zimbabwe is trying to improve and with our help maybe real change can be achieved. Maybe with enough foreign aid and political influenece the next elections in Zimbabwe won't be as farcial as the last and a proper democratically elected government will be installed.

So we should pay to keep Mugabe in power? The money goes to the corrupt scum and helps them stay in power.

prinz

waraf wrote: »

Check out Luxembourg's history in DRC for a start. Be warned, it doesn't make for pleasant reading....

Presume you mean Belgium here.

Long Onion

Speaking of Mugabe, did anyone hear that Zimbabwean nursery rhyme

"Old McDonald had a farm and then we beat him to death and took it off him ...":D

waraf

prinz wrote: »

You're wildly off base here. In most places where estates and farms were run the workers were not "slave labour" and were much much better off than anyone else in the country. I have family connections to a farm in South Africa and the evil white owners controlling this farm have done more for the people who work for them than any NGO or aid donor ever will. Their staff live in decent houses - as good as any built in Ireland during the boom, with water electricity etc all mod cons, tvs, computers, dishwashers etc - compared to the shanty towns.... They built a school on their land for the children of workers and have 2 full time teachers on staff. The son of one of the workers who they educated on their farm and paid for university for is a doctor and runs the farms medical clinic. The workers get paid far better wages than the average industrial wage in SA. It's no coincidence that they have people queuing day in day out begging for a job.

What happened in Zimbabwe is most of the productive land has been destroyed. Land redistribution is all well and good except that the arable land was ruined. There are countless accounts of what actually happened. Farm machinery stolen or destroyed, farm houses and outbuildings burned to the ground, orchards cut down and used for firewood or simply burned where they stood, many Zimbabwean locals who worked the farms were murdered trying to protect their livelihoods, wells were destroyed, livestock were killed and left to rot. What happened was the owners were ousted, the farm workers were driven off the land,and control was giving to people who had (a) no interest in keeping the land going as viable farmland and (b) no experience or knowledge of how to work these farms.

The white farmers were doing very well for themselves and the workers on their farms were probably well fed but what about the rest of the inhabitants of the country? All of the land is owned by white farmers so what is the average Joe going to do? He has no job, no money and no land to grow food cause the white farmer has it all. I'm no fan of Robert Mugabe or any other African despot and I'm not saying that the Mugabe's violent method of land redistribution was the right way to do it. All I'm saying is that it was wrong for the whites to own all the farms and hence have all the wealth in the country. They may pay their workers more than the average wage in SA but I don't thik the idyllic situation you descibe in SA was commonplace in Zimbabwe. I dare say the workers were paid a little more than a pittance especially compared to the vast sums of cash the white farmers were getting. Yes it has had a detrimental effect on Zimbabwe and there has been starvation as a result but it doesn't mean the land should be handed back to the whites. Integration is the only way forward.



So we should pay to keep Mugabe in power? The money goes to the corrupt scum and helps them stay in power.

I don't know how you gleaned that from what I posted. Obviously when I say we should use foreign aid and political influence to bring about change and a stable government, we give funds to the right candidate to helpthey get into power. However, the US government hasn't always backed the right person in the past (e.g. Mobutu) but I hope we are more informed these days so a mistake like that won't easily reoccur.

.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

Presume you mean Belgium here.

Yes of course. I had King Leopold in my head and I typed Luxembourg....

prinz

waraf wrote: »

.The white farmers were doing very well for themselves and the workers on their farms were probably well fed but what about the rest of the inhabitants of the country? All of the land is owned by white farmers so what is the average Joe going to do? He has no job, no money and no land to grow food cause the white farmer has it all. I'm no fan of Robert Mugabe or any other African despot and I'm not saying that the Mugabe's violent method of land redistribution was the right way to do it. All I'm saying is that it was wrong for the whites to own all the farms and hence have all the wealth in the country. They may pay their workers more than the average wage in SA but I don't thik the idyllic situation you descibe in SA was commonplace in Zimbabwe. I dare say the workers were paid a little more than a pittance especially compared to the vast sums of cash the white farmers were getting. Yes it has had a detrimental effect on Zimbabwe and there has been starvation as a result but it doesn't mean the land should be handed back to the whites. Integration is the only way forward.

Actually it was commonplace in Zimbabwe. It was one of the most developed, progressive, prosperous and stable countries. I'm not saying white ownership is perfect - but it worked. The problem is when the whites are moved off the land there is nobody with the expertise and skills to work the farms properly and the land goes to waste. Which is what happened. It brings us back to my point about the lack of initiative and long term view amongst Africans. It was all fun and games for a while, hurray let's go burn down hundreds of acres of orchards.. and next year we can beg for aid because there is no food. A friend of mine is working as an engineer in Botswana on roadbuilding and the company he is working for ( African btw ) employs local women to do the work. Why? Because the local African men consider manual work to be women's work and have refused jobs. Colonialism wasn't great but it wasn't all bad either. As for farmers getting "vast sums of money", it doesn't work that way. In many cases they are making enough to keep the farms going and live comfortably not in luxury.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

Actually it was commonplace in Zimbabwe. It was one of the most developed, progressive, prosperous and stable countries. I'm not saying white ownership is perfect - but it worked.

What about the rest of the country that were dirt poor because they had no land, no jobs and no money to buy all this food that the whites produced.

The problem is when the whites are moved off the land there is nobody with the expertise and skills to work the farms properly and the land goes to waste. Which is what happened.

Which is why we need to bring in foreign aid and expertise to train the locals how to farm their land. It's only through development projects that this will be achieved.

It brings us back to my point about the lack of initiative and long term view amongst Africans. It was all fun and games for a while, hurray let's go burn down hundreds of acres of orchards.. and next year we can beg for aid because there is no food. A friend of mine is working as an engineer in Botswana on roadbuilding and the company he is working for ( African btw ) employs local women to do the work. Why? Because the local African men consider manual work to be women's work and have refused jobs.

We all live in different cultures. By in large the men do the manual labour in western countries whereas the women do it in many African countries. They do things different to us. I don't see any reason why women couldn't build roads.

Colonialism wasn't great but it wasn't all bad either.

Eh? Colonists employed a system whereby the indigenous people were treated as second class citizens most often used as slaves for their white masters. Often the whites would arm one tribe so that they would kill neighbouring tribes and free up land for the whites. Then the whites would slaughter the tribe they had armed. Colonialism was brutal and murderous and I can't believe you are trying to defend it to be honest. Do you think apartheid "wasn't all bad" too?

.

prinz

waraf wrote: »

What about the rest of the country that were dirt poor because they had no land, no jobs and no money to buy all this food that the whites produced.

Like I said, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia was quite a successful and prosperous country. There weren't the starving masses and monetary farce that we see now.

waraf wrote: »

Which is why we need to bring in foreign aid and expertise to train the locals how to farm their land. It's only through development projects that this will be achieved.

The workers who worked the land and farms knew how to do it! The farm managers are usually native non whites. They were the people who lost their homes, jobs, livelihoods etc. Now we should pay money to try and retrain other people to do it How about we just leave the people who are doing it already keep doing it, instead of throwing good money after bad trying to train people with no interest in working how to work.

waraf wrote: »

We all live in different cultures. By in large the men do the manual labour in western countries whereas the women do it in many African countries. They do things different to us. I don't see any reason why women couldn't build roads.

So we should keep giving aid to some lazy gits who won't take up jobs that have been offered to them? . O noes they can't afford to eat...... how about they work for a living like everyone else.

waraf wrote: »

Eh? Colonists employed a system whereby the indigenous people were treated as second class citizens most often used as slaves for their white masters. Often the whites would arm one tribe so that they would kill neighbouring tribes and free up land for the whites. Then the whites would slaughter the tribe they had armed. Colonialism was brutal and murderous and I can't believe you are trying to defend it to be honest. Do you think apartheid "wasn't all bad" too?.

You need to learn some more about the state of some countries under colonialism. I would suggest Senegal as an example.

johnny_knoxvile

we should let Madonna adopt Africa! Problem solved.

Long Onion

johnny_knoxvile wrote: »

we should let Madonna adopt Africa! Problem solved.

Don't be so silly, everyone knows that such a move would result in a civil war between the followers of Madonna on one side and the supportors of the Jolie-Pitt's on the other.

The possible consequences of such a move would demote the civil war in Rwanda to minor incidence status.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

Like I said, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia was quite a successful and prosperous country. There weren't the starving masses and monetary farce that we see now.

There was still a huge amount of poverty during the "good" times. As I've mentioned several times the division of wealth was the problem.

The workers who worked the land and farms knew how to do it! The farm managers are usually native non whites. They were the people who lost their homes, jobs, livelihoods etc. Now we should pay money to try and retrain other people to do it

Yes they did know how to do it and as I said before the violent way that they were forced off the land by Mugabe wasn't the way it should have been done. Mugabe had whipped his supporters into a frenzy and unfortunately the farmowners weren't the only ones to feel the backlash.

How about we just leave the people who are doing it already keep doing it, instead of throwing good money after bad trying to train people with no interest in working how to work.

I don't think it's correct to leave the status quo alone when it's clearly a racist system where indigenous people are forced to live as second class citizens and not allowed a piece of land to fend for themselves.
So we should keep giving aid to some lazy gits who won't take up jobs that have been offered to them? . O noes they can't afford to eat...... how about they work for a living like everyone else.

What difference does it make if the man do the work and the women stay at home instead of the women doing the jobs and the men staying at home.? As long as local people are doing the work it makes no difference. Applying our western logic that men must be the ones doing the manual labour is ridiculous when their culture is obviously different.


You need to learn some more about the state of some countries under colonialism. I would suggest Senegal as an example.

In fairness colonialism in general was brutal. If there were one or two releative success stories they are vastly outnumbered by the attrocious ones. Even the countries who did most of the colonising are ashamed by their actions. I think you can concede that point without losing face.

.

walshb

johnny_knoxvile wrote: »

we should let Madonna adopt Africa! Problem solved.

Yeah, I did think this. Why don't all these do gooder pop stars
adopt Africa if they care so bloody much about it.

Geldof and Bono should adopt Africa instead of throwing MY
money at the problem and worsening it!

acidstorm

Personally, I do think AID is killing Africa, but let's face it, this would not be the case if we (Yes, I'm African) had responsible people governing the continent. I know there's corruption everywhere, but It's something else over there. If any1 really wants to help Africa, Get those guys out of power because there's a whole lot of resources (both Natural and Artificial) that can be tapped and used to accelerate economic progress. However, it (removing another government) would be as silly as the Iraqi issue besides I personally would trust no-one with governing say Nigeria 'cause they all get greedy and power-drunk up there.

Sometimes I find it funny that in Africa, the government(s) usually talk about "Brain Drain", and yet do nothing to curb it. What a bunch of douchebags.

PS: The Humble Opinion of A young Nigerian living a "honest" life in Ireland

random.stranger

prinz:

The biggest problem in Africa is Africans

Wasn't there a similar quote towards Ireland in it's colonial past?

In answer to the OP:
To a certain extent, aid is killing Africa. Donations from countries such as the US have so many strings attached to them, that they are a burden on the reciepient countries.

Ireland has a far more progressive aid policy (a lot of money by government goes to NGO's, who have a large impact on the ground & bypass government). I have seen first hand modest amounts of money changing the lives of many. We should be proud of what we are doing in Africa.

waraf

acidstorm wrote: »

Personally, I do think AID is killing Africa, but let's face it, this would not be the case if we (Yes, I'm African) had responsible people governing the continent. I know there's corruption everywhere, but It's something else over there. If any1 really wants to help Africa, Get those guys out of power because there's a whole lot of resources (both Natural and Artificial) that can be tapped and used to accelerate economic progress. However, it (removing another government) would be as silly as the Iraqi issue besides I personally would trust no-one with governing say Nigeria 'cause they all get greedy and power-drunk up there.

I don't think anyway would refute the point that corruption and bad governance are the root causees of the problems in many African countries. However, I do believe that foreign aid is absolutely necessary because it's the poorest people who suffer the worst as a result of bad leadership and fighting. Look at the number of displaced people in Dafur who are left with nothing due to a government funded militia. They are the ones who need our help the most.

waraf

random.stranger wrote: »

Ireland has a far more progressive aid policy (a lot of money by government goes to NGO's, who have a large impact on the ground & bypass government). I have seen first hand modest amounts of money changing the lives of many. We should be proud of what we are doing in Africa.

Hear hear

walshb

random.stranger wrote: »

prinz:

Wasn't there a similar quote towards Ireland in it's colonial past?

In answer to the OP:
To a certain extent, aid is killing Africa. Donations from countries such as the US have so many strings attached to them, that they are a burden on the reciepient countries.

Ireland has a far more progressive aid policy (a lot of money by government goes to NGO's, who have a large impact on the ground & bypass government). I have seen first hand modest amounts of money changing the lives of many. We should be proud of what we are doing in Africa.

Proud of what exactly? It's been goin' on for decades and nothing has changed, so what exactly is there to be proud of? Are you an NGO member?

Proud of Geldof and Bono for promoting population increase in countries that cannot feed the current population. Yeah, that's somethin' to be proud of, NOT!

So, what exactly have the likes of Bothar and GOAL done in Africa, accept stick their beaks in and interfere and take over. Money making rackets, the whole damn lot of them

While we continue shipping close to a Billion Euro a year out of this country, yet many of our own vital services are being closed due to 'a lack of funding':rolleyes: Yeah, I am so proud, if only our eagerness to help
Africans was here in Ireland