Is Aid killing Africa

Long Onion

Read an article yesterday in which a number of African economists were arguing that a constant stream of foreign aid is actually destroying the continent and that the best way to help is to withdraw financial support completely.

Found it interesting to be honest, what do you reckon?


P.S. (I didn't forget to add an 's' after 'Aid' - smartass:))

MagicMarker

Who's Aid?

P.S. I'm a smartass.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Got a link? Was looking for something to say to concern chuggers actually.

Riamfada

Ive been trying to get Aid stopped for years

aido179

i do my best

Cookie_Monster

Long Onion wrote: »

Read an article yesterday in which a number of African economists were arguing that a constant stream of foreign aid is actually destroying the continent and that the best way to help is to withdraw financial support completely.

Found it interesting to be honest, what do you reckon?


P.S. (I didn't forget to add an 's' after 'Aid' - smartass:))

Aid in the sense of food rations or cash is in a way pointless.

Aid in the way of education or development projects should be encouranged.

As the saying goes:

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll eat for life"

MagicMarker

I think withdrawing financial aid would be a good idea, so long as the current debt is wiped clean.

aido179

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll eat for life"

dont see how you can fish in a desert drought

twinytwo

Long Onion wrote: »

Read an article yesterday in which a number of African economists were arguing that a constant stream of foreign aid is actually destroying the continent and that the best way to help is to withdraw financial support completely.

Found it interesting to be honest, what do you reckon?


P.S. (I didn't forget to add an 's' after 'Aid' - smartass:))

Africa is cooked with or without aid... with guys like mugabe in power it never stands a chance

Lardy Carl

Long Onion wrote: »

Read an article yesterday in which a number of Africans were arguing

FYP

Cookie_Monster

aido179 wrote: »

dont see how you can fish in a desert drought

Obviously no one ever taught you to fish so!

994

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Aid in the sense of food rations or cash is in a way pointless.

Aid in the way of education or development projects should be encouranged.

As the saying goes:

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll eat for life"

More like, "give a thousand men a fish, and you destroy the local fishing industry".

biko

Stop the exploitation by Shell, de Beers and similar.
Many African countries are very rich in resources but still very poor - where does the money go?

We keep them starving and grateful. Just let them keep and use their own resources.

Bandit12

Yes aid is killing africa and has been for years. I've argued this point with friend's/family on several occasions and have even been called a "racist":rolleyes: for advocating aid withdrawal to african nations. Sooner or later they will have to learn that the only way to help themselves is to help themselves.

Gone Drinking

AID isn't, but AIDS is making a dent

Cookie_Monster

1. Stop giving aid

2. they all die out from starvation/war/disease

3. ???

4. Profit

Bandit12

"Yes we can"

Wompa1

Doesn't Africa have a big Aids problem..why would you want to make it worse?

But on a more serious point..didn't alot of the Live Aid money go to militias? A local priest near to where I grew up became a missionary in Uganda and said the majority of charity money doesn't see the people that need it. GOAL are suppose to be good.

From a goverment view...sure whatever...

Biggins

aido179 wrote: »

dont see how you can fish in a desert drought

...but they can farm instead by the use of Hydroponics. Here
A mad example of this is the Japanese bank with a farm under it! HERE

Give them the knowledge, not just the money and its a good start too.

Wompa1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

1. Stop giving aid

2. they all die out from starvation/war/disease

3. ???

4. Profit

HEY WHAT'S STAGE 3!!?......UGHHHH STEP 4 IS PROFIT!

Cookie_Monster

Wompa1 wrote: »

HEY WHAT'S STAGE 3!!?......UGHHHH STEP 4 IS PROFIT!

:rolleyes:

genericguy

I think we should stop giving aid, cancel their debt, and then forget about them.

Everything we give them, they use to finance war. Plus, regardless of how much help they receive, africans always gravitate towards evil dictators, electing them in time after time then begging for help from the west.

We should help them build an electric fence around the whole continent and then leave them to it. In about 15,000 years they should be civilised, then we'll talk.

KerranJast

The main problem I see is Aid is used to prop up populations in terrible areas for human development. If there's continual drought in a region that prevents farming thats natures way of natural selection. The population should migrate to better areas not rely on handouts to survive.

Long Onion

http://www.thepost.ie/agenda/continental-divide-43565.html

Here's the link to the article. It's food for thought I reckon and one of the points brought up is this;

‘‘Aid dependence has been a big problem for the past 30 years; one of its manifestations is that for many African governments, the most important revenue channel they have is aid from donor communities," Erixon says.

‘‘The easiest way for a developing country to increase revenue is to get the donor communities to distribute more resources there, and that means that your chief priority as a government is towards other governments, and not towards your own population. This is not only a democratic problem, but also one that leads to skewed economic policies."

Glennie agrees. ‘‘When the vast amount of your budget arrives from outside the country, you become accountable not to your own people, but to the donor countries. And if the majority of a country’s income does not come from within, then it is hard to put in place all those checks and balances that democracies need."

prinz

twinytwo wrote: »

Africa is cooked with or without aid... with guys like mugabe in power it never stands a chance

Magnus wrote: »

Many African countries are very rich in resources but still very poor - where does the money go?
We keep them starving and grateful. Just let them keep and use their own resources.

See above. A large proportion of aid, in food etc, and money never filters down to the people who need it. It gets skimmed at every level. Bribes, protection money etc. It was interesting to note that at one stage Ethiopia was spending something like $1,000,000 per day on weapons and armaments for it's war with Eritrea, yet relies on foreign aid for food and basic supplies. The resources are there. I also saw an article once by I think it was an engineer with Krupps or one of the other big firms like that about hydroelectric power, who said by properly utilising the natural resources in the Congo alone, the entire continent of Africa could be supplied with electricity.

The biggest problem in Africa is Africans, this only applies to sub-Saharan Africa for the most part. You can't help someone who has no interest in helping themselves. Obviously this does not apply to refugee camps or droughts etc, but I have talked to people who have done work in Africa and they're fighting a constant losing battle, one man was over building houses in a village and training people in trades, tailor, mechanic etc, and when he returned sometime later everything was gone. The houses built had been stripped down and all the materials sold, tiles, bricks etc, the 'tailor' had sold his sewing machine to buy a machete, or the mechanic had upped and left town etc etc. Basically a year of work and training had taken a few months to be undone and the town was back to square one.This was in a productive part of Africa too, with lots of crops and no problems so it wasn't an excuse of starving, or needing to do it. The people just weren't interested. Unless they have someone there directing them and instructing them it won't happen. It's no coincidence that many African nations were far better off under colonial rule, because they actually got things done. And before any jumps in shouting racism and white rule, in many of the colonial nations the civil service, and administration work was done by locals.

Long Onion

MagicMarker wrote: »

Who's Aid?

P.S. I'm a smartass.

He was one half of bottom and yes, yes you are ...

orourkeda

Aid is killing us.

Aids is killing Africa.

Agamemnon

Aid will only work if it's kept out of the hands of cretins who'll spend it on assault rifles and landmines but, as said above, that's extremely difficult to do in the long term.

Bear in mind as well that not every African country is the same and countries like Botswana are doing relatively well.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

See above. A large proportion of aid, in food etc, and money never filters down to the people who need it. It gets skimmed at every level. Bribes, protection money etc. It was interesting to note that at one stage Ethiopia was spending something like $1,000,000 per day on weapons and armaments for it's war with Eritrea, yet relies on foreign aid for food and basic supplies. The resources are there. I also saw an article once by I think it was an engineer with Krupps or one of the other big firms like that about hydroelectric power, who said by properly utilising the natural resources in the Congo alone, the entire continent of Africa could be supplied with electricity.

The biggest problem in Africa is Africans, this only applies to sub-Saharan Africa for the most part. You can't help someone who has no interest in helping themselves. Obviously this does not apply to refugee camps or droughts etc, but I have talked to people who have done work in Africa and they're fighting a constant losing battle, one man was over building houses in a village and training people in trades, tailor, mechanic etc, and when he returned sometime later everything was gone. The houses built had been stripped down and all the materials sold, tiles, bricks etc, the 'tailor' had sold his sewing machine to buy a machete, or the mechanic had upped and left town etc etc. Basically a year of work and training had taken a few months to be undone and the town was back to square one.This was in a productive part of Africa too, with lots of crops and no problems so it wasn't an excuse of starving, or needing to do it. The people just weren't interested. Unless they have someone there directing them and instructing them it won't happen. It's no coincidence that many African nations were far better off under colonial rule, because they actually got things done. And before any jumps in shouting racism and white rule, in many of the colonial nations the civil service, and administration work was done by locals.

Wow you really need to do some homework. Try reading The State of Africa by Martin Meredith or if you're looking for some info specifically on DRC (Congo) try reading Blood River by Tim Butcher.
One of the questions you failed to ask was who was funding the war in Ethiopia. I think you'll find a large amount of Chinese weapons and money is involved in many conflicts in sub Saharan Africa. Also your statement that "The biggest problem in Africa is Africans" is plain insulting. What I hope you meant to say was "The biggest problem in Africa is crime/corruption" which stems from a lack of stable governments and a lack fo education of the general public.

waraf

Agamemnon wrote: »

Aid will only work if it's kept out of the hands of cretins who'll spend it on assault rifles and landmines but, as said above, that's extremely difficult to do in the long term.

Bear in mind as well that not every African country is the same and countries like Botswana are doing relatively well.

If you want to see how foreign aid is being squandered you only have to look as far the UN. The money wasted on bureaucracy by the UN is an absolute disgrace.

walshb

Aid is needed, but it's the incessant western interference that is killing Africa.
They not only want to give aid, they want to dominate and take over. Africans'
need to be in charge of their destiny, helped alright, but from a distance.
Africa is a damn powerful continent, but it suits the west to continually
advertise it as a desolate hole with nothing. It keeps all these wetsern do gooders in the lime light, gives Bono and Geldof a pedestal and all the other so called charities a name for themselves

waraf

walshb wrote: »

Aid is needed, but it's the incessant western interference that is killing Africa.
They not only want to give aid, they want to dominate and take over. Africans'
need to be in charge of their destiny, helped alright, but from a distance.
Africa is a damn powerful continent, but it suits the west to continually
advertise it as a desolate hole with nothing. It keeps all these wetsern do gooders in the lime light, gives Bono and Geldof a pedestal and all the other so called charities a name for themselves

Jaysus that's the most cynical post I've read in a long time. :rolleyes:

bakkiesbotha

waraf wrote: »

"The biggest problem in Africa is Africans" is plain insulting. What I hope you meant to say was "The biggest problem in Africa is crime/corruption" which stems from a lack of stable governments and a lack fo education of the general public.

Logic fail

Who commits the crimes?
Who forms the governments?
Who makes up the general public?

Africans!

Cookie_Monster

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Logic fail

Who commits the crimes?
Who forms the governments?
Who makes up the general public?

Africans!NWO & the Lizards

FYP

waraf

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Logic fail

Who commits the crimes?
Who forms the governments?
Who makes up the general public?

Africans!

ok so the problem with Ireland is the Irish. We're ALL to blame for crimes committed ny individual people. Gimmee a break :rolleyes:

prinz

waraf wrote: »

Also your statement that "The biggest problem in Africa is Africans" is plain insulting. What I hope you meant to say was "The biggest problem in Africa is crime/corruption" which stems from a lack of stable governments and a lack fo education of the general public.

Hope away but I'm generally careful in choosing my words so I usually mean exactly what I say. Where does the crime and corruption come from.. uh Africans. Where does the lack of education come from - African governments...... why is there a lack of stable governments - probably because large parts of sub-Saharan Africa are still run by war lords and tribally, under the guise of nation-states and proper governance. One warlord dictator after another comes along rapes and pillages their own country for as long as they can before they get replaced by another up and coming warlord. Even in countries with properly developed local government and official administration problems are rife due to incompetence, corruption, lack of will and lack of effort.

walshb wrote: »

Africans'
need to be in charge of their destiny, helped alright, but from a distance..

Africans were given charge of their own destiny. Some countries seized the opportunity and progressed to stable viable countries. In other countries the reigns were seized by tyrants and the problems continue and intensify to this day.

bakkiesbotha

waraf wrote: »

ok so the problem with Ireland is the Irish.

Yes of course it is! Are you blind? Have you noticed any problems caused by corruption, and parochialism, and cronyism, and low-level dishonesty, and sneakiness, and cute-hoorishness recently?

waraf wrote: »

We're ALL to blame for crimes committed ny individual people. Gimmee a break :rolleyes:

Another logic fail. That doesn't follow from anything.

prinz

waraf wrote: »

ok so the problem with Ireland is the Irish. We're ALL to blame for crimes committed ny individual people. Gimmee a break :rolleyes:

You're missing the point. The rulers in sub saharan Africa have to a large degree gravitated towards savagery and ignorance. The instituions and administrations which were well developed and stable in many countries under the colonial rule, quickly floundered post-independence.... Senegal is a prime example. The reasons some countries prospered and others didn't cannot be blamed on westerners, big corporations etc, but it's down to the people who ruled and inhabit it. Zimbabwe, from the so called "breadbasket" of Africa to stone age backwater...

bill_ashmount

prinz wrote: »

The biggest problem in Africa is Africans, this only applies to sub-Saharan Africa for the most part. You can't help someone who has no interest in helping themselves. Obviously this does not apply to refugee camps or droughts etc, but I have talked to people who have done work in Africa and they're fighting a constant losing battle, one man was over building houses in a village and training people in trades, tailor, mechanic etc, and when he returned sometime later everything was gone. The houses built had been stripped down and all the materials sold, tiles, bricks etc, the 'tailor' had sold his sewing machine to buy a machete, or the mechanic had upped and left town etc etc. Basically a year of work and training had taken a few months to be undone and the town was back to square one.This was in a productive part of Africa too, with lots of crops and no problems so it wasn't an excuse of starving, or needing to do it. The people just weren't interested. Unless they have someone there directing them and instructing them it won't happen. It's no coincidence that many African nations were far better off under colonial rule, because they actually got things done. And before any jumps in shouting racism and white rule, in many of the colonial nations the civil service, and administration work was done by locals.

Absolute rubbish. Africans are more than capable of running their own countries.

bill_ashmount

On a side note Africa's biggest problem in the next 50 years will be their TFR. It's massive and will lead to the population hitting nearly 2,000 million from only 700 million today.

Cookie_Monster

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Africans are more than capable of running their own countries.

Yeah they've proved that pretty well to date haven' they?

prinz

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Africans are more than capable of running their own countries.

Some are, some aren't. It's fairly obvious that some countries are not being run by people capable of it.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

Hope away but I'm generally careful in choosing my words so I usually mean exactly what I say. Where does the crime and corruption come from.. uh Africans. Where does the lack of education come from - African governments...... why is there a lack of stable governments - probably because large parts of sub-Saharan Africa are still run by war lords and tribally, under the guise of nation-states and proper governance. One warlord dictator after another comes along rapes and pillages their own country for as long as they can before they get replaced by another up and coming warlord. Even in countries with properly developed local government and official administration problems are rife due to incompetence, corruption, lack of will and lack of effort.

Much like the problem with Europe is Europeans or the problem with Asis is Asians. :rolleyes: Come on, Africa is a huge continent with many ridiculously divided countries. Some of the borders drawn up by the colonial powers actually split tribes in half. Travelling from east to west DRC is the same distance as travelling from London to Moscow. There is less than 100km of road in the whole country and in most places there is no electricity and no clean water. There is no democratic system in place to elect officials. How to expect to rid a place like this of corruption? Foreign aid is absolutely necessary in a place like DRC. The locals are dying on a daily basis from starvation and treatable diseases.

dlofnep

Did anybody watch the Louis Theroux program on Johannesburg?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1-Tb84uDsc&feature=PlayList&p=E272A664C8FB5F77&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Watch that - About 3 minutes in, and see the evil that is produced under extreme poverty. Guy is batshít crazy!

Africa will never be free until we canel their debt and let them figure it out for themselves.

waraf

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Another logic fail. That doesn't follow from anything.

Jaysus :rolleyes: All I'm saying is that the statement that "Africans are the problem in Africa" is an absolutely pointless statement. Irish are the problem in Ireland, English are the problem in England etc. So what!!

The point is that a minority or corrupt politicians or criminals are ruining what a lot of foreign aid is trying to achieve in may African countries. Saying that there's no point in sending aid to African countries cause it's full of Africans is essentially racist.

waraf

dlofnep wrote: »

Did anybody watch the Louis Theroux program on Johannesburg?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1-Tb84uDsc&feature=PlayList&p=E272A664C8FB5F77&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Watch that - About 3 minutes in, and see the evil that is produced under extreme poverty. Guy is batshít crazy!

Africa will never be free until we canel their debt and let them figure it out for themselves.

Yeah I saw that. Horrifying stuff.

Unfortunately even if all foreign debt is cancelled it's not going to solve the problem. It would be a good start but the issues are much more complex than that.

Long Onion

waraf wrote: »

Much like the problem with Europe is Europeans or the problem with Asis is Asians. :rolleyes: Come on, Africa is a huge continent with many ridiculously divided countries. Some of the borders drawn up by the colonial powers actually split tribes in half. Travelling from east to west DRC is the same distance as travelling from London to Moscow. There is less than 100km of road in the whole country and in most places there is no electricity and no clean water. There is no democratic system in place to elect officials. How to expect to rid a place like this of corruption? Foreign aid is absolutely necessary in a place like DRC. The locals are dying on a daily basis from starvation and treatable diseases.

I don't think that Foreign Aid is absolutely necessary at all. Modern western societies have evolved over millenia and have got to current levels of structure without foreign aid, it was an economic and cultural revolution.

Did it strike you that perhaps countires need to evelove at their own pace and in their own time and that by pumping money in to try and speed up the process we are actually creating more problems than we are solving - we can't artificially stimulate natural progeression without some kind of backlash.

prinz

waraf wrote: »

Come on, Africa is a huge continent with many ridiculously divided countries. Some of the borders drawn up by the colonial powers actually split tribes in half. Travelling from east to west DRC is the same distance as travelling from London to Moscow. There is less than 100km of road in the whole country and in most places there is no electricity and no clean water. There is no democratic system in place to elect officials. How to expect to rid a place like this of corruption? Foreign aid is absolutely necessary in a place like DRC. The locals are dying on a daily basis from starvation and treatable diseases.

So you continue to pump foreign aid in which goes on arms to prop up the corruption that's already there... and this benefits people how?

Nation building starts at grass roots level up, not the top down. European countries didn't just pop out fully formed as they are now. You need stability at a village level first. And that isn't present in many places - not because of war or famine or disease, but because people on the ground don't see the benefits of a social contract.

Even Bóthar found many of the cows etc which were sent over supposedly to begin a herd which could benefit an entire community were being slaughted and eaten on delivery, which makes for tasty dinners for a week, but a month later you're no better off and are back looking for foreign help. There's no long term view, no commitment to make things better. Many countries in Asia, Central America, South America etc were colonies and had borders drawn up rather arbitrarily but they succeed (to a degree in some cases).... how?

waraf

Long Onion wrote: »

Did it strike you that perhaps countires need to evelove at their own pace and in their own time and that by pumping money in to try and speed up the process we are actually creating more problems than we are solving - we can't artificially stimulate natural progeression without some kind of backlash.

Yes you're right, countries did evolve at their own pace but do you think in this day and age it's morally correct for us to allow millions of people die unnecessarily each year while we sit back and say "sure it's just nature taking its course"

prinz

waraf wrote: »

Yes you're right, countries did evolve at their own pace but do you think in this day and age it's morally correct for us to allow millions of people die unnecessarily each year while we sit back and say "sure it's just nature taking its course"

Perhaps the millions of Africans who aren't dying unnecessarily each year could think about that one. Africa has the resources to prosper, it has the ability to prosper, it has the right to prosper. What it doesn't have are the people with the determination and drive to make these things happen in many countries. What it needs is a couple of selfless individuals to rise up, accept power and do what needs to be done. Unfortunately large parts of the continent have actually regressed since the 1950's and 1960's.

waraf

prinz wrote: »

So you continue to pump foreign aid in which goes on arms to prop up the corruption that's already there... and this benefits people how?

Nation building starts at grass roots level up, not the top down. European countries didn't just pop out fully formed as they are now. You need stability at a village level first. And that isn't present in many places - not because of war or famine or disease, but because people on the ground don't see the benefits of a social contract.

Even Bóthar found many of the cows etc which were sent over supposedly to begin a herd which could benefit an entire community were being slaughted and eaten on delivery, which makes for tasty dinners for a week, but a month later you're no better off and are back looking for foreign help. There's no long term view, no commitment to make things better. Many countries in Asia, Central America, South America etc were colonies and had borders drawn up rather arbitrarily but they succeed (to a degree in some cases).... how?

Listen, all of the NGO's working in African countries are tryig to get help to the people in the villages but it's not as easy as it sounds. Governments "taxes" have to be paid in many cases just to get access to certain areas. These taxes are essentiall bribes to local officials but there is no way around them if you want to work in the country.

You talk about stability at village level, about cows getting slaughtered and social contract. You're applying first world thinking to a third world issue. A person in poverty doesn't employ long term thinking to an immediate problem. By that I mean that a man doesn't care about social contracts, local governement, education etc. when his wife and children are dying from malnutrition. If he sees a cow he's going to kill and eat it before someone else steals it and uses it to feed their family.

You also mention how other countries have succeeded post colonialism. Every country has it's own individual problems and I think we're all guilty at times of lumping every sub Saharan African country in together and just considering it as "the problem in Africa". It's impossible to go through each counry in detail and list the problems with each one but I would say that there are still serious probems in Asia (eg Laos, North Korea, Indonesia, Burma) and South America where people are dying unnnecessarily every day due to poverty related diseases and corruption.