McCabe Murderers released

oscarBravo

waryeye wrote: »

A lot of you indignant contributors can't hide your loathing for those who put their lives at risk, and many who died, for what they believed in.

My feelings towards people who put their lives at risk for what they believe in tends to depend on whether it's something I believe in also.

My loathing is particularly reserved for people who are prepared to murder for what they believe in, and for those who condone - tacitly or explicitly - their murderous actions.

prinz

waryeye wrote: »

I wasn't in the least bit surprised to see Martin Ferris picking up the three released prisoners. What intrigues me is why the media photographers were thare at 6.45 in the morning to highlight the fact?

Yeah God forbid the public has a right to know than an elected representative in the national legislature picks up a couple of murdering scumbags.

waryeye wrote: »

Another reason to rehash the killing of Gerry McCabe, show the photographs of the scene etc etc.
Just another opportunist bashing of the wider Republican movement.

(a) It's Jerry and (b) opportunism like ambushing two men doing their job?

waryeye wrote: »

Anyone who bothers to investigate these matters knows IRA personnel were forbidden to kill Gardai or Irish defence force personnel.

Would you care to show us any evidence of this? From what I recall the Gardaí and Defence Forces were singled out as agents of the Free State, collaborating in the partition of Ireland and therfore legitimate targets..

waryeye wrote: »

A lot of you indignant contributors can't hide your loathing for those who put their lives at risk, and many who died, for what they believed in.

What about Omagh, what about Jean McConville, Warrington.... they did die for something they believed in?

waryeye wrote: »

There were brave people on all sides of it.

So you acknowledge the bravery of Captain Nairac I presume?

waryeye wrote: »

There's nothing simple about it.
And it wasn't only Gerry McCabe who died for what he believed in.
And as such, to magnify his death over any of the others in the way it has been hijaced by the media and their cohorts in the south is nauseating to me and many others.
And opportunistic

Don't you mean the Republic? This is a different country pal. We're entitled to expose murdering scum and their politician friends any way we see fit.

Liam Byrne

waryeye wrote: »

I wasn't in the least bit surprised to see Martin Ferris picking up the three released prisoners. What intrigues me is why the media photographers were thare at 6.45 in the morning to highlight the fact?

Maybe they were just there as "individuals", too ?

According to you, Ferris can be where he likes, but now photographers' can't ? Give me a break! :rolleyes:

waryeye wrote: »

Anyone who bothers to investigate these matters knows IRA personnel were forbidden to kill Gardai or Irish defence force personnel.
The killing was wrong and condemned by Sinn Fein. At the time and since then.

But Martin Ferris is a lifelong Republican who fought and served time for the things he believed in himself. That's why the good people of North Kerry see fit to return him to the Dail.
They know he is a decent man. A man who stuck to his principles, come hell or high water.

You're confusing me. If the killing was wrong and condemned by SF, and Martin Ferris sticks to his principles, why was he collecting people who "were forbidden to kill Gardai", but went ahead and did that ?

Oh, for the record - EVERYONE'S forbidden to kill Gardai.

waryeye wrote: »

A lot of you indignant contributors can't hide your loathing for those who put their lives at risk, and many who died, for what they believed in. Yet the majority of the Northern nationalists, the people who endured the conflict in the six counties vote for Sinn Fein.
Fact.

Fair play to anyone who "puts their lives at risk or dies for what they believe in". Those who flew planes into the twin towers did just this.

I'll respect that.

I won't be forced to respect or given lectures about beliefs and nobility by people who decide to take others with them. Those who flew planes into the twin towers did just this, too, so any respect I had for them is out the window.

Plus the scum that shot McCabe didn't "die for what they believe in"; they shot him in a cowardly way and ran away like cowards, two of them still on the run.

So almost your entire post was irrelevant.

waryeye wrote: »

And it wasn't only Gerry McCabe who died for what he believed in.

What ? What does "what he believed in" have to do with anything ? He was doing his job. I've no idea what he believed in.

He didn't "die for what he believed in". And he wasn't given much of a choice about it; he was murdered.

Again, people can choose to "die for what they believe in" all they like - just don't make the decision for someone else and take them with you.

waryeye wrote: »

And opportunistic

About as opportunistic as running around with AK-47s and shooting people in the back before they get their gun to give you a fight back, maybe ? :rolleyes:

waryeye

Oscar Bravo you seem to want to reduce the whole Norhern conflict to a bunch of `murderers' going around creating mayhem for no reason. That's totally simplistic and totally wrong. The whole community was convulsed in a situation involving institutionalised sectarianism, gerrymandering, lack of civil rights. That's what started the violent troubles in the north. Fact.

Again. There were brave people involved on all sides. Some misguided and no doubt, some psychopaths too.
It was the most natural thing in the world for someone from a Unionist backround to join the UDR, the RUC. Although both organisations were widely reviled by the Nationalist communtity and regarded by many as sectarian in their actions.
It was understandable that some people would drift in to loyalist organisations, as some perceived their `community' being under attack.

And it was also wholly understandable why large numbers of young men and women ended up joining the IRA, in many cases they saw it as defending/fighting for their own community.
Just as it was natural for Gerry McCabe to join the Gardai and become a detective etc.

Stop reducing these matters to simplicities. It's a complex picture and it seems to me that you and others prefer to reduce it to a neat simple package.

oscarBravo

waryeye wrote: »

Stop reducing these matters to simplicities. It's a complex picture and it seems to me that you and others prefer to reduce it to a neat simple package.

Det Gda Jerry McCabe was shot in the back in cold blood. An elected representative met his murderers as they left prison.

Maybe these things have made life better for the poor oppressed nationalists in Northern Ireland. I kinda doubt it.

You can dress it up in as much Republican rhetoric as you like - to right-thinking people, murdering police officers is just plain wrong, and an elected representative escorting his murderers from prison is also just plain wrong.

WillieCocker

waryeye wrote: »

Oscar Bravo you seem to want to reduce the whole Norhern conflict to a bunch of `murderers' going around creating mayhem for no reason. That's totally simplistic and totally wrong. The whole community was convulsed in a situation involving institutionalised sectarianism, gerrymandering, lack of civil rights. That's what started the violent troubles in the north. Fact.

Again. There were brave people involved on all sides. Some misguided and no doubt, some psychopaths too.
It was the most natural thing in the world for someone from a Unionist backround to join the UDR, the RUC. Although both organisations were widely reviled by the Nationalist communtity and regarded by many as sectarian in their actions.
It was understandable that some people would drift in to loyalist organisations, as some perceived their `community' being under attack.

And it was also wholly understandable why large numbers of young men and women ended up joining the IRA, in many cases they saw it as defending/fighting for their own community.
Just as it was natural for Gerry McCabe to join the Gardai and become a detective etc.

Stop reducing these matters to simplicities. It's a complex picture and it seems to me that you and others prefer to reduce it to a neat simple package.

Nothing to do with Hatred then no?.
What about Jean McConville who helped an injured British soldier, who was later kidnapped and never found again.

Liam Byrne

I'll tentatively agree with that last post by waryeye, but it then begs the question :

WHAT do the supposed actions of "individuals" [ who just happen to be SF / IRA members acting on their own bat ] have IN ANY WAY to do with that post ? Why is it even in this thread ?

If - God forbid - any member of my family or friends murdered someone in cold blood, unprovoked and on their own decision, then I - as a man of principle [ as waryeye is trying to portray Ferris ] would not only disown them, but I'd also be even more pissed off with them for casting a slur across my family name.

So I wouldn't go visit them, wouldn't plaster a photo of me with them all over some rag, wouldn't collect them from prison, and wouldn't have anything more to do with them.

waryeye

waryeye wrote: »

Stop reducing these matters to simplicities. It's a complex picture and it seems to me that you and others prefer to reduce it to a neat simple package.

:D

A bit of levity.

Folks, stop reducing it to simple stuff, like wrestling with concepts of right and wrong, crime and punishment, forgiveness, charity and Christianity, turning the other cheek, the interaction between representatives and those who have sinned etc. etc.

It's much more complex. Waryeye says Ferris is a good and decent man. There you go.

waryeye

Printz my point about the photographers still stands? Who alerted them to the three prisoners leaving at 6.45 in the morning? Strikes me that it was an opportunity too good to be missed to rake up the whole issue again . . fill newspaper space and reduce the greater issue to banal simplicities.

If you knew anything about the IRA or its history you would know that the official `Green Book' given to volunteers included a section forbidding taking armed action against Gardai/Defence forces in the south. I choose the word south because I don't consider southern Ireland `The Republic'. That's my choice and I'm perfectly entitled to it.

You mention Omagh? Nobody, could deny it was a terrible event. The Real IRA I believe was responsible. But yes, there were atrocities on all sides of the conflict and the IRA was responsible for some of them.

You mention Captain Nairac? Was he brave? I would say he undoubtedly was. And foolish. Anyone standing up in a pub in South Armagh and singing rebel songs in an attempt to pass himself off as a `republican' at that time was very foolish indeed. But brave? yes I'd say so too.

And Liam Byrne, again I would contend it was entirely consistent for Martin Ferris to be there to pick up people from prison who he regarded and regards as comrades. He's never said anything to the contrary, as far as I know!

Liam Byrne

waryeye wrote: »

And Liam Byrne, again I would contend it was entirely consistent for Martin Ferris to be there to pick up people from prison who he regarded and regards as comrades. He's never said anything to the contrary, as far as I know!

"comrades" - i.e. "friends with common goals and interests" ?

And my point was WHY he still regards them as such, considering their sickening actions [ which you propose are completely at odds with his own and his organisations, and has dragged his organisation into disrepute ]

Like I said - and "family" is a step above "comrades" - I'd immediately disown anyone who riddled a Garda with bullets for no reason, leaving him dead.

If Ferris does still view them as "comrades", then fair enough - his choice; but it shows that his moral code and beliefs are COMPLETELY different to mine, along with his ethics and pure contempt for law and order.

So he's entitled to do whatever the f**k he likes, but - and especially as a TD - he's going to be judged on it.

And he's lost - big-time.

prinz

waryeye wrote: »

Printz my point about the photographers still stands? Who alerted them to the three prisoners leaving at 6.45 in the morning? Strikes me that it was an opportunity too good to be missed to rake up the whole issue again . . fill newspaper space and reduce the greater issue to banal simplicities.

An opportunity to show a fool like Ferris for what he really is you mean? All this talk of look to the future, Sinn Féin - the viable alternative, the inclusive party etc etc. Prats. They can distance themselves and condemn all they want - but the the end of the day, there he was a Sinn Féin TD greeting two convicted Garda killers.

waryeye wrote: »

If you knew anything about the IRA or its history you would know that the official `Green Book' given to volunteers included a section forbidding taking armed action against Gardai/Defence forces in the south.

So why was Jerry McCabe murdered? There was no attempt to rob the van. They got out, riddled the two gardaí and left the scene... Should we not expect some punishment from the IRA for this?

waryeye wrote: »

I choose the word south because I don't consider southern Ireland `The Republic'. That's my choice and I'm perfectly entitled to it.

:pac: Right ok... Enough said really.

waryeye wrote: »

And Liam Byrne, again I would contend it was entirely consistent for Martin Ferris to be there to pick up people from prison who he regarded and regards as comrades. He's never said anything to the contrary, as far as I know!

You're perfectly correct, consistent in being a worthless waste of space.

waryeye

Willie Cocker of course hatred was involved, on all sides. IRA, UDR, British Army, RUC, Loyalists. That's a petty point, never denied hatred was a factor i such a conflict? As it inevitably is.

And Conor74 I'm not trying to avoid any debate about right or wrong, crime or punishment or turning the other cheek. I'd welcome it. But I do object when some people try to cast others and their views in the role of `scum' or demonise them. I said Martin Ferris is considered a decent man by the people of North Kerry. I stand over that. Why do they vote for him regularly otherwise?
And the people of Munser almost put his daughter in the European Parliament.
In your eyes I suppose they are all `scum' too because they happen to disagree with you.

I said earlier that most people, including Sinn Fein, and the vast majority of Republicans profoundly disagreed with the killing of Jerry McCabe. And that too still stands.

But Ferris was never going to turn his back on people he considered comrades. End of story.

WillieCocker

waryeye wrote: »

Willie Cocker of course hatred was involved, on all sides. IRA, UDR, British Army, RUC, Loyalists. That's a petty point, never denied hatred was a factor i such a conflict? As it inevitably is.

Gerry , your avoiding the question.:)..... what about Jean Mc Conville.....coincidence no doubt?
The IRA wouldn't just kill an innocent woman for helping a young british soldier?

waryeye

waryeye wrote: »

I said Martin Ferris is considered a decent man by the people of North Kerry. I stand over that. Why do they vote for him regularly otherwise?

And by that yardstick, other elected representatives from Charlie Haughey to Benjamin Netanyahu were good and decent men.

Well someone elected them regularly, didn't they?

waryeye wrote: »

In your eyes I suppose they are all `scum' too because they happen to disagree with you.

Ah now, please don't put words in my mouth. I wouldn't say all those who voted for your one with the legs were scum at all. I certainly think Martin Ferris himself is, but then again he runs guns, he counts killers as his friends...come on...he's ticking a lot of boxes!

waryeye

Yes Liam Byrne let the people of North Kerry judge him in the next election. He has made no secret of his support for those prisoners and I don't think one clued-in political person in North Kerry was surprised he was outside to greet them. He has publicly campaigned and spoken for their right to be released earlier in the Dail.

All this mock-horror at his being outside the prison?

I know it's not going to change you, or people like you, in their view of Martin Ferris. But I'd be pretty confident it won't change the opinions of those who voted for him in North Kerry either.
An entirely inconvenient suggestion for you perhaps? But there you go.

And before you think I'm suggesting that all his voters àgree with the killing of Jerry McCabe I have no doubt they do not!!
But when they vote they are not voting on the `Jerry McCabe controversy alone. They see the bigger picture here.

prinz

waryeye wrote: »

I know it's not going to change you, or people like you, in their view of Martin Ferris. But I'd be pretty confident it won't change the opinions of those who voted for him in North Kerry either.

If you read the threads on this, you may see quite a number of posters who have previously or have considered voting Sinn Féin change their stance on the party in the light of Ferrets actions.

oscarBravo

waryeye wrote: »

All this mock-horror at his being outside the prison?

Who says it's mock horror? I am horrified that a member of the Oireachtas would greet the killers of a member of our police force in this way.

I'm not even a little bit surprised, but I'm horrified nonetheless.

Erin Go Brath

Het-Field wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0805/breaking14.htm

The killers of Garda Gerry McCabe in Limerick (1996) have been released from prison after serving 10 years.

No doubt Toireasa Ferris will seek to have Kerry County Council make them freemen of Kerry.

I doubt very much Toireasa will seek to have them made freemen of Kerry. What a ridiculous suggestion and therefore what a ridiculous thread.

waryeye

Willie Cocker I answered what I took to be your main point, on hatred etc. So now you want to indulge in a bit of `'whataboutery' ? Fair enough I guess.

What about Jean McConville? If she was killed by the IRA for tending to a dying British soldier well that is to be roundly condemned.
Some say it was for other reasons . . . I don't know the truth of the matter. Maybe you do?

But do you want to say what about the lack of civil rights? Gerrymandering? Internment? Bloody Sunday. Shoot to kill by the RUC/British Army? On the other side what about La Mon? Enniskillen? Bloody Friday in Belfast. About defending Nationalist enclaves from loyalist murder gangs? I think you can see where whataboutery leads us? Nowhere. The war is over. Let it go.

And Conor74 you mention Haughey and Netanyahu? Well the fact that 40 per cent of the people ie Fianna Fail voters, regularly voted for Haughey, who I always considerd a scoundrel, indicates plenty of people regarded him as decent. No doubt some of them, deluded as they are, still do now.
And Netanyahu, as Prime Minister of Israel, no doubt has his fans too.

I wouldn't be one of them.
But glad to see we agree on something!:)

oscarBravo

waryeye wrote: »

Well the fact that 40 per cent of the people ie Fianna Fail voters, regularly voted for Haughey, who I always considerd a scoundrel, indicates plenty of people regarded him as decent. No doubt some of them, deluded as they are, still do now.
And Netanyahu, as Prime Minister of Israel, no doubt has his fans too.

So you accept that merely being electable doesn't make someone a decent person?

I don't agree that sticking to your principles is necessarily much of an indicator, either: Liam Lawlor was prepared to do jail time for his. Does that make him a good person?

WillieCocker

waryeye wrote: »

What about Jean McConville? If she was killed by the IRA for tending to a dying British soldier well that is to be roundly condemned.
Some say it was for other reasons . . . I don't know the truth of the matter. Maybe you do?

The truth is, for a lot of decent law abiding irish people, that it is one of a long line of reasons not to vote for SF/IRA.

But do you want to say what about the lack of civil rights? Gerrymandering? Internment? Bloody Sunday. Shoot to kill by the RUC/British Army? On the other side what about La Mon? Enniskillen? Bloody Friday in Belfast. About defending Nationalist enclaves from loyalist murder gangs?

Neither the RUC/British Army/UDA/UVF/LVF are trying to represent my area and looking for my vote.

Erin Go Brath

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

What a ridiculous suggestion and therefore what a ridiculous thread.

Not sure I get that logic, but why stop there?

What a ridiculous suggestion so what a ridicolous thread, forum, world and universe!

waryeye wrote: »

No doubt some of them, deluded as they are, still do now.
And Netanyahu, as Prime Minister of Israel, no doubt has his fans too.

I wouldn't be one of them.

At least we have some movement, you have come round to accepting that securing votes may have nothing whatsoever to do with being honest or decent.

You were talking earlier about it being a complex issue. Maybe if you stopped changing your stance it would simplify it for the rest of us!

Erin Go Brath

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I get that logic, but why stop there?

What a ridiculous suggestion so what a ridicolous thread, forum, world and universe!

The op suggests that Toireasa will now be looking for the freedom of Kerry for the recently released prisoners. Which patently is nonsense. Therefore this thread is a farce before it begins.

celticfan32

I am delighted to see the release of Kevin and Pearse. They have done their time and are now entitled to their freedom. Fair play to Martin for going to Castlrea to welcome his friends back into society. Martin is a highly respected politician and the people of north Kerry showed that in the last 2 elections. People might not know the amount of good work Martin has done for the people of North Kerry even though the 26 county police force tried their best to blacken his campaign. Just ask the drug dealers in Tralee and Castleisland, not many drugs been sold there now !!!!!. So before people come on here slating Martin Ferris, take a long fooking look at your own communities and see what you can do to stop the Drug Lords !!!!. On the McCabe murder, yes i agree he should not have been shot but even the dogs on the street know it was not a planned murder. It was a robbery that went horribly wrong. All republicans know that Gardai are never to be killed.

oscarBravo

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The op suggests that Toireasa will now be looking for the freedom of Kerry for the recently released prisoners.

It's just barely - barely - possible that that was a tongue-in-cheek remark.

I know it's almost unheard of for someone to pull a stunt like that on boards.ie, but if you think about it long and hard enough, it's just about feasible.

prinz

The family of a teenager murdered by the IRA at the height of the Troubles said republican claims he was a security forces' informant had finally been dismissed.

Bernard Teggert was 15, though relatives at the time said he had the mental age of a child, when he was kidnapped by the IRA in 1973.

The IRA accused Bernard, from New Barnsley in west Belfast, of being an informant and shot him.

The organisation did not admit to the killing at the time, but in October 2004 the IRA issued a statement accepting responsibility for his death. It apologised to the family for the pain and grief that it had caused and said the boy's death was wrong.

Now republican sources are said to have confirmed categorically to the family that the murdered boy was not a security forces' informant.

The dead boy's family told the republican newspaper, An Phoblacht: "We know Bernard was innocent. He was not an informer. We are glad that that stigma has been removed."

Republican sources had repeated what were described as profound regrets about the killing of Bernard Teggert and acknowledged that it should not have happened.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/teenage-murder-victim-was-not-informant-republicans-admit-421533.html#ixzz0NQ1HD7PR

Another case of a brave soul dying for what they believed in. More of Martin's aquaintances no doubt. The cheek of them is unbelieveable. Pity they can't take away the stigma of death. As a matter of interest is there anything that they will admit should have happened?

oscarBravo

celticfan32 wrote: »

Just ask the drug dealers in Tralee and Castleisland, not many drugs been sold there now !!!!!.

As a matter of interest, how has Martin Ferris single-handedly eliminated the drug trade in his area?

...it was not a planned murder. It was a robbery that went horribly wrong.

A robbery, eh? How much did they get away with, again?

WillieCocker

celticfan32 wrote: »

Just ask the drug dealers in Tralee and Castleisland, not many drugs been sold there now !!!!!

I wonder why?
Did Martin Ferris take them on himself?
Is that what the gun running charges were about?

. So before people come on here slating Martin Ferris, take a long fooking look at your own communities and see what you can do to stop the Drug Lords !!!!. .

We don't need to, we have the Gardai to do that for us with absolute power, who can take on Drug Dealers, armed robbers.........oh that's right we should check up if they are friends of Martin Ferris before we tackle them.:)

celticfan32

Well Oscar give a trip back to Tralee and Castleisland and ask them why dont you !!!!!!

oscarBravo

celticfan32 wrote: »

Well Oscar give a trip back to Tralee and Castleisland and ask them why dont you !!!!!!

I just asked you. Is there a particular reason you don't want to answer?