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Decline of Respect/Morals in Society?

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    #92
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    davyjose wrote: »
    Last year a girl in Somalia was buried up to her neck and stoned to death. I'm not saying that's the way forward, or anything. but i doubt that little fùcker would have thrown bleach in someone's face if he'd grown up there.

    There was a time in the last centuries when consequences = crime. Now, Consequences <<<< Crime.

    If smashing someone's head in with rocks isnt the way forward, what is?


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    #93
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    orourkeda wrote: »
    If smashing someone's head in with rocks isnt the way forward, what is?

    Hobo humpin' - it's all the rage you know.


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    #94
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,799 ✭✭✭amacca


    liah wrote: »
    Right, I've put down the hash pipe and I'm re-entering the ring after a good night's sleep. Still not entirely sober, though, so excuse any glaring mistakes.

    My point of view:
    I seriously doubt there's any moral degredation or more crime or more.. anything negative than there has been in history, and if there is, it's pretty much due to population increase as opposed to any outlying factors (ie, religion, or lack thereof).

    You can't seriously get behind the religion-makes-us-more-civilized-and-moral argument if you want any sort of credibility-- look at the most religious periods in history. That should take you straight through some absolutely heinous moral and criminal actions. You may say "oh, they were only doing it for political gain, it's not the real basis of Christianity, blah blah blah," but uh hey, what do you expect, exactly..? Human nature triumphs over anything, including whatever morals your religion may dicate to you. Religion is always going to be used for political gain. So how, precisely, would the removal or addition of Christianity make any difference? It's not the religion. It's the moral compass of the country in which you're a resident. Which is why you can get drastically different countries led by the same religion, or lack thereof.

    Anyway, back to the original: population increase and everyone being squeezed in at closer and closer quarters probably has a heck of a lot more to do with it (it being crime moreso than morals) than people not believing in the sky daddy anymore. I mean, that's common sense though really, isn't it?

    And the "decline of morals" thing.. I presume you're all yammering on about abortion and prostitution and drugs and gay rights or something, in which case, I'd say our morals are improving, not being degraded. A woman's right to choose and a gay's right to be with the human being they love are hardly bad, and imo a much needed step in the right direction-- the less there is under the table, the more people can be helped out and the less violence and hate crime there is (hate crimes generally performed due to religion, onoez! counterpoint?!). Sweep everything under the rug and continue to preach misunderstanding and hate and it gets seedy.

    This "good old days" stuff is utter bull, to be honest. The world has always been messed up. It's always had messed up people in it. There's always been people with no morals and there's always been disgusting crimes being committed. We just hear more about it now because a) our population is massive compared to what it has been in history and b) the media and internet let us know about it a lot faster than any newspaper or stone etchings.

    If anything.. I'd say we're at a high point in history over a low one. We've got it pretty damn good.

    Not really disagreeing with you on most of this, thought your mention of the "sky daddy" was amusing, have to say there could be a lot of research/statistic/fact to support your view that population increase is causing more crime + its being reported more etc.....remember a study recently that showed animals become increasingly violent even cannibalistic the closer they are forced to live beside each other this despite being well provided for and the test animals not being highly territorial in nature...study drew parallels/linked serial killing to urbanization etc...not sure how valid any of it was but it seemed to make sense.

    Also agree that historically there were very high levels of violent crime also with most of it going unreported etc and there are many instances of very punitive cultures having high crime rates etc


    but still, in this country which I have personal experience of I think its fair to say that it is a lot less safe to walk the street than it used to be, to use public amenities, to go out to your local etc and that this deterioration in standards has a lot to do with it being much more difficult to apply appropriate consequences for misbehavior than it used to be...It seems to me that the system we have in place is not dealing appropriately with the types and levels of crimes we are experiencing.....I can start listing recent cases that have received lots of media coverage recently to back up this point if anyone wants

    Basically I think a lot of the increase in these offenses comes from offenders not being allowed experience the consequences early enough and seeing others not being dealt with harshly for committing what in fairness are very harsh crimes if you happen to be the victim. I believe this situation allows a whole subculture of what i can only describe as utter scum blossom beyond a level it needs to.....I think the problem would be greatly reduced with the right system in place....a system that favours the law abiding citizen and not the scumbag.

    Yes there will always be scum but do we need quite as many of them and even though we may be at a high point when you look over long periods of human history but I think we are certainly not at a high point when you look over recent history....


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    #95
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    I agree with you, I was just attacking the point that others were attempting to make indicating that the loss of religion was the reason for increased crime, which it clearly isn't...

    But yeah. Punishment for crime should definitely be revised. Not entirely sure how, though, as corporal punishment doesn't really seem the way to go in a more modern society. Though, it works..


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    #96
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    amacca wrote: »
    but still, in this country which I have personal experience of I think its fair to say that it is a lot less safe to walk the street than it used to be, to use public amenities, to go out to your local etc and that this deterioration in standards has a lot to do with it being much more difficult to apply appropriate consequences for misbehavior than it used to be....

    As touched on before, its due to the fall in emmigration. If you look up the stats you'll see we're still under the average.


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    #97
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    davyjose wrote: »
    Last year a girl in Somalia was buried up to her neck and stoned to death. I'm not saying that's the way forward, or anything. but i doubt that little fùcker would have thrown bleach in someone's face if he'd grown up there.

    There was a time in the last centuries when consequences = crime. Now, Consequences <<<< Crime.
    Do you honestly think that Ireland is in a greater state of lawlessness than the countries where punishments like this are carried out?


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    #98
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Complete lack of fear.

    In the old days, you'd fear the teachers, which would then go onto fearing the Gardai. Now a days, there is no fear of no-one. No fear of going to jail.


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    #99
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    the_syco wrote: »
    Complete lack of fear.

    In the old days, you'd fear the teachers, which would then go onto fearing the Gardai. Now a days, there is no fear of no-one. No fear of going to jail.


    Bring back the industrial schools, nothing like a bit of random buggery to keep us on the straight and narrow. There was none of this bleach throwing rubbish when Dangan was full.


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    #100
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Long Onion wrote: »
    There was none of this bleach throwing rubbish when Dangan was full.
    Because The ..ehem..christian brothers were using it to cleanse the souls of the poor kids unfortunate to end up in places like that .


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    #101
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Latchy wrote: »
    Because The ..ehem..christian brothers were using it to cleanse the souls ... .

    No, but probably something that rhymes with that...


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    #102
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,799 ✭✭✭amacca


    Nodin wrote: »
    As touched on before, its due to the fall in emmigration. If you look up the stats you'll see we're still under the average.

    O.K. so you think this is entirely to do with less people leaving the country...therefore more people remaining...therefore more competition/jealousy/begrudgery/overcrowding leading to more antisocial behaviour and drug/gang related violent crime. Maybe you have a point but I think there's more to it than that.

    If that's the only reason then I suppose Its only a pity that the decline in our economy didn't coincide with massive upturns everywhere else so these enterprising criminals could have emigrated to the UK, America, Australia etc

    Also thank god for the brain drain of previous generations leaving behind people that were just too stupid to beat the living daylights out of people in their own homes. tie them up with electrical cord, pour petrol on them etc and getting rid of the entrepreneurs that might have spotted a niche in the market for that sort of thing.


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    #103
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    amacca wrote: »
    O.K. so you think this is entirely to do with less people leaving the country...therefore more people remaining...therefore more competition/jealousy/begrudgery/overcrowding leading to more antisocial behaviour and drug/gang related violent crime. Maybe you have a point but I think there's more to it than that.

    Actually the stats are fairly conclusive.
    The safety valve that was emigration declined the prisoner population started to increase in the late 1960s. In 1960 the daily average number of prisoners in custody was 461 by 1970 this had increased to 750. Ten years later that number had increased to1,215. Crime rates increased dramatically during this period, from, on average, less than 20,000 recorded indictable offences each year in the 1960s to over 100,000 in 1983.
    http://www.irishprisons.ie/about_us-history.htm

    The 1950's, for instance, were the time of peak emmigration, and the time of the lowest recorded murder rates. Also, society is far less accepting of violence now than it was formerly. Violence against women and excessive beating of children is now frowned upon. Fist fighting and feuding likewise.


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    #104
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    amacca wrote: »
    Also thank god for the brain drain of previous generations leaving behind people that were just too stupid to beat the living daylights out of people in their own homes. tie them up with electrical cord, pour petrol on them etc and getting rid of the entrepreneurs that might have spotted a niche in the market for that sort of thing.

    Yes....that would be this lot....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Mob


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    #105
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    Nodin wrote: »
    Also, society is far less accepting of violence now than it was formerly. Violence against women and excessive beating of children is now frowned upon. Fist fighting and feuding likewise.

    Ah gone are the fun times alright. I recall being told that the origin of the phrase "rule of thumb" came from an old law which held that it was acceptable for a man to beat his wife if he used a stick which was narrower in diameter than his own thumb.

    You see, back in those days, they made well thought out laws, not complicated ones like the blasphemous libel law or the new criminal justice bill. Keep it simple so there's no ambiguity.


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    #106
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    the_syco wrote: »
    Complete lack of fear.

    In the old days, you'd fear the teachers, which would then go onto fearing the Gardai. Now a days, there is no fear of no-one. No fear of going to jail.

    What happened to the days when people would respect what was right, for it merely being right instead of having to have fear as a factor in the first place?

    It seems to me that most people are more conscious about getting caught rather than the moral weight of what they do.


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    #107
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,799 ✭✭✭amacca


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes....that would be this lot....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Mob


    Fair enough, it seems as if I have been approaching this thing from the wrong angle entirely.

    Ill take my flawed ideology and turn it into something productive.

    We need either to create a reason strong enough to force these people out of the country or some decent propaganda that makes them think there are better opportunities elsewhere..

    If this proves less than feasible then may I suggest an immediate cull of our population down to the levels they were at when crime rates were at their lowest and then possibly beyond until we find an optimum level....it would be nice to selectively target those that are causing the trouble but perhaps it would be more fun if we just randomly took people out until we had reached our target....this has the added benefit of people not being able to accuse the movement of targeting certain groups of people.....as Ive come to believe to be random is to be truly fair.

    Or... if your not into the whole chaos thing, Ive seen this linked to recently by someone on here

    http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/modest.html

    I think it could work!


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    #108
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    What happened to the days when people would respect what was right, for it merely being right instead of having to have fear as a factor in the first place?

    They never existed, as I touched on before. Also, definitions of "right" have changed, largely for the better and not for the worse.


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    #109
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Too many cnuts out there without a father to bate em.

    Not PC I know. Truth rarely is though.

    All credit to other posters from singleparent families who grew up straight but for every one of you, there are several scumbags whose pop never stuck around to give them a 'piece of their mind' when needs be.


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    #110
    bean na gaeilge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭bean na gaeilge


    Jumpy wrote: »
    You are a teacher and you use text speak? No wonder kids are screwed.


    Whats with all the judgement??? As I said - An Irish one! Haven't got a degree in English!!! Am I not entitled to type however I like when I'm not working!!! And on holiday!!!!:mad:


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    #111
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    bean na gaeilge wrote: »
    Whats with all the judgement??? As I said - An Irish one! Haven't got a degree in English!!! Am I not entitled to type however I like when I'm not working!!! And on holiday!!!!:mad:


    Nothing personal but on a point of principle, no one should be entitles to communicate via text speak - ever. It is the singular most annoying development of modern times and is almost certainly the major contributory factor in the Decline of Respect/Morals in Society.


    That and the re-introduction of the Wispa


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    #112
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    topper75 wrote: »
    Too many cnuts out there without a father to bate em.

    Not PC I know. Truth rarely is though.

    All credit to other posters from singleparent families who grew up straight but for every one of you, there are several scumbags whose pop never stuck around to give them a 'piece of their mind' when needs be.

    I'm sure there's just as many fathers who did stick around but are worthless scumbags who beat their kids.


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    #113
    bean na gaeilge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭bean na gaeilge


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Nothing personal but on a point of principle, no one should be entitles to communicate via text speak - ever. It is the singular most annoying development of modern times and is almost certainly the major contributory factor in the Decline of Respect/Morals in Society.


    That and the re-introduction of the Wispa


    I shall take it all on board... although I have to admit my blood may have boiled for a split second after the first post of judgement!!!!:D


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    #114
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,510 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    A decline in old fashioned values rather than morals perhaps is a better way to describe it. Among other factors too of course.

    Oh and OP BrummyTom, are you sure you're just going on 16? :pac:


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    #115
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    I'm sure there's just as many fathers who did stick around but are worthless scumbags who beat their kids.

    Sad but true in a few cases.

    Thing is, when there is no pa to dish out a deserved hiding, they go off the scale altogether, and that is what we have today. I might despair at it, but I don't ponder as to why.


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