DART+ (DART Expansion)

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261313#Comment_123261313

Why would they not go straight to ABP? Especially if it's the same site, but a different design. Presumably they would have covered a lot of ground (no pun intended) already? Or is that totally naive, and we're looking at 2 years ABP and 1 year JR again?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261439#Comment_123261439

If nobody appeals the planning to ABP, it's much quicker and un JRable. This can be a benefit.

e.g.there's a huge apartment development on the Naas Road where they went for bog standard SDCC planning, council didn't do anything silly, nobody appealed and it got approved - if they'd gone SHD someone would probably have JRed it as the SHD system brought out all the cranks.

As a much smaller project it should not need as long at ABP, and there should be less to potentially JR too.

Now, Kilcock - there is a strong chance that they will need to close the nicely located, but unextendable, town centre station and replace it with a bigger station outside the town centre and further from housing estates. That will cause war and likely will be JRed on whatever ground someone can think of.

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261446#Comment_123261446

Thanks for that explanation, good to know.

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261313#Comment_123261313

Depot in Drogheda was a RO, SI. No. 370/2003

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123263716#Comment_123263716

They also applied to Drogheda Corporation as-was, file number now it's moved to Louth records is 00510255. Odd.

Brightlights66

There was an article in the Irish Times today about another attempt to convert the current location of Clontarf Golf Club into housing. Several thousand homes, apparently.

It is my understanding that Irish Rail own a percentage of the land - I'm not sure how much or which bit, but you'd imagine it's the part adjacent to the railway line.

If such redevelopment of the golf course should occur, it is my belief that it would be seriously worth considering using the Irish Rail section of that land to start quasi-fourtracking of the Northern line across there.

As an initial stage, viewing this heading north from the city, dropping two additional lines from the Howth Road bridge and across the (presumably) IR piece of land into an underground station around Collins Avenue East, to serve the new several thousand homes and the existing population.

The gradients involved seem to be very doable.

Later stages, possibly by cut-and-cover tunnelling, would be to (say) Artane Roundabout and Coolock, before at some point rejoining the existing Northern Line.

As I see it, this could be very advantageous, for two reasons particularly. Firstly, it would remove the need for the colossal disruption that would be caused by actual four-tracking of the existing line, so on an interim basis there might be only small disruption to DART, Enterprise and Suburban services. Secondly, it could (eventually) bring suburbs like Artane and Coolock closer to rapid transport than they already are, and should increase the overall catchment area of the DART service.

I think it would be worth a look, should such a large redevelopment happen. Irish Rail can't really do anything now, because their land is leased to a golf club. But should the golf club decide to move, opportunities may open up for the new use of the land.

gjim

What's the benefit to 4 tracking or increasing capacity of the Northern line or lines when there is no spare capacity in the centre for any more trains? After DART+, all central terminal (Connolly) and through-running (loop line) capacity will be fully maxed out.

Deck chairs shuffling can't fix this - for example displacing/diverting W and SW DARTs to Spencer Dock to free up slots for more N DARTs will not be possible as Spencer Dock will also be at max capacity (12 tph) during peak.

Spending money on a project like that without providing an increase of passenger numbers will never pass a CBA.

To consider a project like that, either the inter-connector or some other project to provide more central capacity will have to come first.

Brightlights66

Yes, of course.

It was an aim for IR, in the past, to 4-track the Northern line. It may re-emerge once the current DART projects have been accomplished.

4-tracking from a 2-track system would usually involve acquirement of adjacent land either side of the existing line and you'd have to realign and rebuild each station. Such a project has already, fairly recently, been achieved in West Dublin, on the line out of Heuston. If Northern Line 4-tracking were ever to happen, the land acquisition costs either side of the line would certainly be many times greater than they were in West Dublin.

My suggestion above was written merely to highlight how this potential redevelopment of Clontarf Golf Course might present opportunities to avoid considerable land acquisition costs and service disruption, and better serve other suburbs.

But, certainly, a project for well into the future.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123272464#Comment_123272464

Already re-emerged. Project 4 North was awarded to Arup back around October last year for Phase 1 & 2 (Concept & Pre-feasibility) works.

cgcsb

I've now been told that the cabra and ballyfermot stations are to be advanced quicker than previously discussed and will now likely be coming to public consultation in a matter of weeks and constructed concurrently with the DART+ scheme

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123274783#Comment_123274783

That's what we need to hear!

KrisW1001

All good news. Ballyfermot plugs a big gap in the SW line (I fully understand that it wouldn’t have been possible before the four-tracking of the Hueston approach), and Cabra is such an obvious addition once commuter services run through the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

However, it’s 5 km from Park West/Cherry Orchard to the Heuston West station. That’s quite a long distance, and given that DART operates on 1~2 km station spacing in the city, it should be possible to get the proposed Ballyfermot station between Le Fanu Rd and Kylemore Road (approx 3 km from Heuston West) and still have room for a Kilmainham/Inchicore station in between at about 1.5 km from Heuston West. Something like this (highlighted yellow):

(Rail maps are available from this site: RAILISA STAT UIC)

L1011

A Kilmainham / Inchicore station would need more identified land for redevelopment to build up a population or worker base around it - that area is not very dense. You've got the old state computer centre (but it's still in use), parkland, and some fairly low density housing in the close catchment.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123274980#Comment_123274980

Yes, there’d need to be some significant high-density development nearby to make it work, but there’s a fair amount of unused land here, much of it owned by CIÉ, that could be used for development. If the Ballyfermot station isn’t located too close to Inchicore, the option will be there in future.

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123274963#Comment_123274963

It's always been my working assumption that the Ballyfermot Station would actually be a Kylemore Road station, with the main entrance there. A couple of minutes walk from the main strip in Ballyfermot, on a main orbital road for interconnection with bus routes, and huge development opportunity south of the tracks.

I'd personally love to see a station at Sarsfield Rd/the Khyber pass, but bear in mind the indirect rail route into the centre from there. The bus will be quicker than DART to most city centre destinations. DART would be great for connections, but if the main driver is point-to-point trips then really only GCD would be competitive. The G Spine goes all the way to the Point now.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261446#Comment_123261446

What's the reasoning for the lack of a possibility of a second platform on the northern side of the current track, extending westwards from the current road overbridge? There is enough room under the bridge for a second track and there appears to be enough space for an additional platform beyond that, in a westerly direction.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123275822#Comment_123275822

It's questionable if there is enough space under the bridge for a second track - the platform is on the original double track track bed. It would be very tight. The existing single track is slewed towards the centre of the double track alignment and that will put out the position of the second track beyond the extent of the station in both directions.

Digging out space for a platform West of the road bridge would be problematic with the access to the house between the railway line and canal.

It'd also be incredibly faffy to ensure access to that platform. A lift tower/bridge combo towards the end of the existing platform would be the only realistic option without buying out that house's driveway; and would make a ~300m walk from the new platform end to the station exit.

The track is also curved by the end of where you'd put a platform, and there is reluctance to build new platforms on curves. It's not the "absolutely never" level that used to be claimed - take a look at Pelletstown - but it's another issue.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123272934#Comment_123272934

Was the feasibility study not meant to be published towards the end of last year? We're nearly in Q2 already and not a peep

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123275854#Comment_123275854

The photo and satellite view that I posted suggest that there's enough room for an extra track under the bridge, with the additional platform only beginning slightly west of the bridge and I would argue (again, judging by satellite view and the photo I posted) that there is enough room for the extra track plus the platform if the embankment is cut back, with no infringement on to the property of the private dwelling.

A lift tower/bridge combo in combination with direct access from the overbridge would do the job fine as it would be reasonable to assume that the majority of passengers would enter/exit the new platform from the overbridge. A lift tower/bridge combo would be just facilitating a second method of safe transfer between platforms.

The curve in question is rather slight and I can't see that it would be an issue. I agree that dead straight would be absolutely ideal but when it comes to the railways, ideal is not always absolutely possible.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123275863#Comment_123275863

It is meant to be early 2025, which is running out very fast.

pk1991

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123275693#Comment_123275693

Yes - that is the best location for a new station. The S4 has great patronage and if that is where the station is then it is great connectivity. We may let see some joined-up thinking!

I think a station at Kyber pass only makes sense if/when they ever proceed with the Dart Underground. You'd then have interchange capability between trains through the tunnel and those going through Phoenix Park.

But sure that will never happen :P

goingnowhere

Kyber pass makes no sense as the tunnel portal for DART underground will be roughly between the running shed and bogie shop inside Inchicore works with a dive underpass to bring the two tracks under the main line into the site.

West of Kylemore Rd bridge makes sense as it works for both current and future possibilities

The tunnel portal at Heuston is dead option thanks to the new NTCC building

Bsharp

The original Dart Programme work included a station at Kylemore Road but it was removed as part of the Dart+ SW Railway Order. The City Edge redevelopment plan assumes the Kylemore Station + S4 link, but goes on to say that the S4 bus should be something with higher capacity (rail). That location would also benefit with connectivity to Lucan Luas if that's the preferred route.

CatInABox

Great video from IR on the testing the new trains are undergoing right now. I guess the "new news" is that they have a second set, which has begun testing.

Looks great, imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1EKZrT6m1k

MICKEYG

Love these videos but one thing that confuses me is how much testing IR have to do. I can understand testing that it works on our tracks etc but could the battery, brake and traction testing not be done by the manufacturer?

Probably not a valid comparison but when, for example, Aer Lingus get delivered a new plane it is in service within days. All the testing is done before delivery

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123326309#Comment_123326309

They couldn’t do those tests in Poland because of the different track gauge.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123326309#Comment_123326309

That’s not true about planes when it’s a brand new model. And aeroplanes have the luxury that the air above the plane factory is exactly the same composition as the air the customer will fly the plane through.

What’s happening with the DART+ fleet is a kind of “type approval” process: IÉ need to run the actual train across their intended use area to make sure that it performs as expected in its actual conditions. This takes a long time because it’s better to find a problem now and have it fixed in Poland than put the trains in service, then have to take them out of service again for fixes. It’s a final chance to validate the design, and make improvements before putting the type into service. It’s not an in-depth test that the train is “working”: making sure that each train conforms to spec is Alstom’s responsibility (the sets in Dublin now were already tested in Poland to make sure they were in spec).

Once these initial approval tests are through, and IÉ and Alstom are happy that all the initial bugs are ironed out, then any new set will just have the standard “make sure nothing bad happened in transit” tests, which I can’t imagine would take more than a week or so per set. As he mentioned in the video, the second set went through its traction and braking tests far quicker than the first.

(IÉ were bitten by putting stuff into service quickly when they bought the Mk IV carriages used on Cork-Dublin: The supplier, CAF, followed IÉ’s specifications, but the carriages just didn’t work well on the actual lines, and it took a couple of re-works to fix the ride quality - now they’re much more cautious).

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123326309#Comment_123326309

Exactly the same scale of testing has happened with each new class of train introduced on the GB network.

Type approval takes a very long time.

MICKEYG

Thanks all. I was not saying I think it is incorrect to do all testing, just wondering why it is mostly on IR. Well explained.

Sam Russell

Weren't there problems with the newly extended trams not able to get up the ramps on the Green Line?