DART+ (DART Expansion)

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123226741#Comment_123226741

I assume the floodplains you’re referring to are the ones in Kilcock and not Maynooth.

Maybe if you’re going to rant away, do some research and get your facts right.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123226854#Comment_123226854

Strange take. Insults and nitpicking while ignoring the substantive points are usually a good sign you've won the argument.

Here's some research for you. All IE's documents and the Railway Order itself refer to it as the Maynooth Depot. The word Kilcock does not appear anywhere in the RO.

KrisW1001

@Former Former Former : You’re making an assertion here based on not much more than your own pessimism, without evidence to support it. If, as you say, IÉ is incapable of completing this project there would be some indication out there that this is happening. For instance there is more than one poster here who clearly works either at IÉ or a supplier, and we haven’t heard anything like your claim from them. The current situation is most likely that tendering is waiting for the JR to be resolved. You work in programme management: how likely would you be to engage a vendor at a good price if there’s a threat that the works will be reduced or cancelled by a judge? Risk is cost.

Meanwhile, IÉ has been quietly delivering the various enabling works for DART+ that didn’t require a Railway Order for the last two years, and the fleet rollout (also no RO needed) is proceeding on schedule.

I’m sorry, but your claim doesn’t fit with what we’ve seen already. You have no evidence that IÉ is not “busting its ass” to resolve the depot issue: they don’t have to make anything public until the new design is ready for review.

We all love a good moan, but there’s a point where you have to accept that you’re not the only person with an ounce of competence in the world, and that other people may actually know what they’re doing.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123222288#Comment_123222288

That would make sense being that unlike Greystones it would likely have the platform capacity to do that, however I just can't find info about that (which to be fair there isn't much info about ending direct services).

That said, if people already aren't happy about having to change at Greystones, I don't think asking them to change at Wicklow Town, even if just as a temporary measure while a third Greystones platform is being built, is going to end well.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123226950#Comment_123226950

have no evidence that IÉ is not “busting its ass” to resolve the depot issue

My comment about busting asses was not about the depot, it was about the project in general.

But you're right, in fact we have no evidence of anything. If there's a plan in place, if there's work planned, let's hear it. On that note…

they don’t have to make anything public until the new design is ready for review

Should a public body be aiming for the absolute bare legal minimum of disclosure?

Does the public not deserve to hear about this, since we're the ones funding it and the ultimate end users? Why should we be reliant on rumours and half-truths and guys on boards who may or may not work for them?

There is no date for a new plan, no date for start of work, there is no date for completion. I'm sorry, this isn't good enough.

The current situation is most likely that tendering is waiting for the JR to be resolved. 

That's exactly the problem and exactly my objection. To call it bad project management is a massive understatement.

We all love a good moan, but there’s a point where you have to accept that you’re not the only person with an ounce of competence in the world

Again, more digs at me. Can't we just debate the trains like?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123227434#Comment_123227434

Well, that was the first “dig” I made at you, and it was out of exasperation. I made that comment because you appear to have arrived at a conclusion and are dismissing contrary arguments out of hand because they disagree with it. Also, you’re assuming that your experience trumps that of anyone else. I’ve friends who brought projects far bigger than this to completion - they don’t go around claiming to be better than anyone else, which is probably why they're so good at their job.

I'm surprised you don’t seem to accept that an organisation would wait until the legal doubts around their project are cleared before putting it out to tender. Again, would you, as a vendor, tender for something where it’s not even clear you’ll be allowed do the work? If you do, you’ll add a contingency to your bid straight away, and so will everyone else. Again: risk is cost.

It's **** that a JR can hold up the thing like this, but what’s the alternative? Waste money? That’s “our” money they’d be wasting. And as the depot is already needs reworking, why try press ahead with a part of the project. Potential constructors want to see the whole thing, and then they can decide what to tender for. Doing it in chunks makes their life harder, and when their life is harder… yep, they charge more.

As for status reports, just because you aren’t hearing what's happening, it does not follow that nothing is happening. Public communications are managed for a reason - people can quickly get the wrong end of the stick, and the last thing this project needs is someone else getting bright ideas about opposing it. Write to the Minister for Transport and ask him what the story is: that’s the proper channel.

spacetweek

Many of you may have accepted long ago that things move at a snail's pace here and that's just how it is, but I haven't.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123226883#Comment_123226883

I didn’t insult you and I wasn’t nitpicking.

Ironic you going on about research when you’re making false statements.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123228072#Comment_123228072

Well, that was the first “dig” I made at you, and it was out of exasperation

Do you not think I'm speaking from exasperation too? You're clearly a rail enthusiast and very interested in trains, networks, etc., so you have a particular perspective.

I'm a rail user and I'm interested in getting a better quality service sometime before I retire, that's my perspective, so can you understand why I'm exasperated?

The difference is my posts don't really matter. On the other hand, the delays in doing anything with our train service have enormous implications. You're exasperated at a random internet poster saying mean thing about IE, I'm exasperated at having a third world train service. Do you see the difference?

We're five years into Dart West and not a single inch of overhead wire has been erected, and it will be at least another five before it is. It's not good enough and all the deflection and IE apologists in the world can't make it so.

Write to the Minister for Transport and ask him what the story is: that’s the proper channel.

This is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've ever read. The public - the funders and ultimate customers of this project - should have to write to the minister to find out what the hell is happening? That's really the "proper channel" for a multi-billion euro public project?

The funny thing is, that's exactly what IE think too. And that's a key part of my objections.

Say nothing until we absolutely have to, then fudge it a bit until they lose interest, then maybe we'll commission another consultant's report, and suddenly we're five years closer to the pension.

cgcsb

The Depot preferred site will be announced in April. IÉ is working on site selection at the moment. There was no chance of tendering while JRs were on going that would leave the state very vulnerable in a negative JR outcome scenario.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123229853#Comment_123229853

I’m a rail user whenever I have the opportunity to be, and I’m not 100% in love with the service we have by any means. If you’re complaining that there’s a delay, then I’m right behind you - there shouldn’t be a bloody delay.

Where I disagree with you is that you have decided that this is solely due to incompetence in IÉ. That is the only place I disagree with your comments. And I only disagree because there’s no evidence of it, and you haven’t given any. Everything you’re saying is based on nothing more than your own personal, and misplaced, grudge. You won't change anyone’s opinion on this until you start showing evidence of the behaviours you claim IÉ is engaging in. I’m sick of reading your moaning without evidence, not of reading your moaning, not of you.

If you think it’s hilarious to ask your elected representative to do something for you, you’ve missed a lot growing up in this country. Ever try it? They actually do listen if you frame it as something that could cost votes (and this definitely could). Or if you prefer, ask your local opposition TD: SF would love nothing more than to uncover the mismanagement you claim is rife in IÉ, so set them at it. I bet the answer you’ll get is the one we’ve all guessed already: they’re reworking the depot, they’re waiting for the JR to complete, and then it’ll go to tender when that’s done, because nobody wants to tender for an incomplete project that could be curtailed further by a judge.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123230040#Comment_123230040

you’ve missed a lot growing up in this country.

Actually, I did all my growing up in this country, hence my exasperation. Too much of that time has been spent getting to and from college and work on a rubbish train.

So long as people think getting their local TD to get information that should be freely available is the "proper channel", there's no incentive for anyone to change and that's why we are where we are.

I bet the answer you’ll get is the one we’ve all guessed already: they’re reworking the depot, they’re waiting for the JR to complete, and then it’ll go to tender when that’s done

People keep repeating this like it's a solution and it's evidence that IE are doing their best, or that I don't know this. I know this is the "answer", and that's exactly my beef.

Let's walk through this.

October 2023 - the ABP hearing focuses heavily on the flood risk at the Maynooth Depot.

July 2024 - RO is issued, depot is rejected.

April 2025 - we will, apparently, have a new site proposal for the Depot. "Proposal" being the key word there.

That's 18 months from when alarm bells should have been ringing very, very loudly at IE about the Maynooth depot, and 9 months since the formal rejection, and a black box of mystery as to when the process can actually restart. You want evidence they've mismanaged it, there you go, and it's tip of the iceberg.

As for the JR, if they thought closing down a long-established business and massively impacting another was not going to generate objections, then again, this is not the defence of IE that you think it is.

Everything you’re saying is based on nothing more than your own personal, and misplaced, grudge

And everything you're saying is based on your personal beliefs that everything is fine and the lads are doing their best. It isn't and they aren't.

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123229868#Comment_123229868

Do you have an idea/preference where the depot will be? Personally I'm hoping it's out near M3 Parkway, as a Dunboyne station user.

goingnowhere

Irish Rail is stuck due to the process

The public consultation dragged on, combination of heavy political interventions and the NTA pushing for a cheap solution, it wasn't until second round that we got the actual plan

The documentation requirements have massively expanded in recent years

A byzantine approvals flow between Irish Rail, NTA and DoT before Irish Rail could submit the draft order

ABP took way to long

JR's get filed within the legally permitted window

Minister can't sign order until JR dealt with

Irish Rail can't contract for works until JR dealt with

In comparison in Cork, ABP was quick, no political interventions, no public hearings and works are underway

KrisW1001

Yes, I’m expressing my personal beliefs, but I’m not the one asserting that my point of view is the only possible one. I’ll say it again: it could be the case that this project is delayed solely because IÉ is lazy and incompetent, but there’s a lot of evidence that IÉ is neither of those things, and a lot of more plausible reasons why the project is delayed.

The planning timeline you gave is not evidence of “laziness” or “incompetence” - it’s evidence of a surprising judgement by ABP. During the hearing stage, all you can do is provide additional information to show that you have an answer to the concern. That was done. IÉ commissioned their own survey of the site that rebutted that flooding risk claim, showing that the design of the depot had already accounted for that risk.

This isn’t as clear cut a decision as you’re making it out to be: plenty of people here thought ABP were wrong in rejecting the depot completely, and should have granted the application subject to IÉ making improvements in the existing measures against flooding. Especially as the newly aligned tracks were given permission to run, unaltered, through an area that ABP’s inspector’s report considered to be unsuitable for the laying of depot lines at a higher elevation.

When the depot was rejected, IÉ said they were already looking at other sites, so some work did start before the rejection. I, like most others, thought that ABP would grant that depot subject to additional flood mitigation measures. The actual ruling of an outright rejection of the depot was a big surprise based on what was published during the hearings.

But that’s not the big issue. The big issue is the JR against the road works. Without those works, it’s not possible to tender for any work on the tracks underneath. For the third time, with your project manager’s brain engaged, consider these two questions: would you put work out to tender if there was a chance that a judicial ruling could cancel it? Or, from the other side, how much would you add in contingency to your tender if you suspected that a judicial ruling could cancel the works you’re tendering for?

“you’ve missed a lot growing up in this country.

Actually, I did all my growing up in this country, hence my exasperation. ”

Where did I say you didn’t grow up here? The text you quote says the exact opposite.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123230178#Comment_123230178

If I had to bet I would say the current site will be the preferred option. Second most likely is a site west of Kilcock, third most likely is a site near Dunboyne

L1011

Someone on Reddit claiming to have got a CPO for use of their back garden subsoil for underpinning on West

Now - are there sites on West where there will be underpinning, and would West CPOs even be active with the JRs?

Can think of possible need for that along South West, e.g. Inchicore Road, Landen Road, Kylemore Drive etc when widening the 2 and 3 track sections.

KrisW1001

Yes, around Inchicore piles will need to be driven diagonally into the subsoil of the gardens adjacent to the new line in order to support the retaining walls either side of the track. Exact locations are in the RO drawings.

It’d be interesting to see the wording of those CPOs, because what is actually being purchased isn’t the gardens, but the ground under them: the residents will mostly retain full use of their gardens after the works, but won’t be able do do anything that requires excavating them. Just curious to see how this is done in legal terms.

goingnowhere

If you are getting a CPO notice now, you would have missed a lot of earlier correspondence as all landowners are notified before submission to ABP

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123230976#Comment_123230976

Never underestimate how, erm, "ignorant" is a bit pejorative… unaware of reality? some people are!

goingnowhere

Or purchased recently and solicitor didn't make adequate searches on planning on/near the property

scrabtom

How much would you get paid for having these piles driven under your garden I wonder.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123230296#Comment_123230296

Is west of Hazelhatch/Adamstown/Stacummy not a potentially suitable depot location either? Seems like it could work. Might be a moot point as well as I’m not really sure what benefit it could have but Inchicore, the DART depot and Portlaoise Traincare depot would all be on the same line then…?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123231699#Comment_123231699

Single point of failure could be an issue there. If there is a failure of some kind around Heuston, the whole network is shut down.

Ireland trains

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2025/03/04/new-dart-west-extension-to-maynooth-faces-judicial-review-challenges/

To be heard on June 23rd.

Also states that Southwest hasn’t received planning yet, is it too much to ask for one article without incorrect information.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123231803#Comment_123231803

If they built the link line between the Cork and Sligo mainline, that might be a good place for the depot…

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123232457#Comment_123232457

Would easily add another ten years to delivery.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123230247#Comment_123230247

with your project manager’s brain engaged, consider these two questions: would you put work out to tender if there was a chance that a judicial ruling could cancel it?

Yes.

I'm not sure where it's written in stone that the entire RO has to be issued in a single tender to a single provider.

If there are only small aspects of the project that are subject to delays, then you split them off and get going on the things that are not affected by the delays.

The depot at Maynooth and the arrangements at Ashtown should not hold up the capacity increases at Connolly, should they? The new station at Glasnevin? The traffic enabling works to facilitate the closure of level crossings at locations other than Ashtown? Spencer Dock?

The upgrade of Connolly was needed 20 years ago, the last thing we need is to make in contingent on yet another RO application, because doing so means that the delays on Dart West bleed into the other projects.

Or, from the other side, how much would you add in contingency to your tender if you suspected that a judicial ruling could cancel the works you’re tendering for?

See above.

Waiting on the depot and the outcome of the JRs is painted as a low-risk approach, in fact it's the complete opposite. It is reckless.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123233361#Comment_123233361

You don’t consider the possibility of a vendor offering to build multiple parts of the project at a lower cost than would be paid by farming those out to individual contractors. The savings come from sharing the setup/teardown cost across multiple packages of work. If you don’t offer the whole set, you lose those opportunities to save.

Anyone tendering for the rail works would be interested in doing the depot job too: it’s a lot of tracklaying in a small area, and as a bonus it gives them the opportunity to use the depot lands as their own logistical hub during the other construction, further reducing costs. I find it baffling that you don’t seem to get how the presence or absence of the depot in the works schedules wouldn’t be a big deal for tendering.

You appear to be approaching the project from a time-first perspective. It must be nice to have lots of spare money: it’s not a situation I’ve ever seen in projects.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123233491#Comment_123233491

You don’t consider the possibility of a vendor offering to build multiple parts of the project at a lower cost than would be paid by farming those out to individual contractors.

Yes, that is correct, and I did consider it but see below.

You appear to be approaching the project from a time-first perspective. It must be nice to have lots of spare money: it’s not a situation I’ve ever seen in projects.

The critical factor you're overlooking is that tender prices in 2025 are extremely unlikely to be the same as tender prices in 2028 which by my estimation is the earliest this can happen.

Prices generally only go one way and if we're looking at a potential trade war between Europe, US and China in the next four years, what do you think that will do to construction costs?

Quite literally, time is money here. Doing nothing now is absolutely the high-cost option.

Edit: and if the benefits of this project are as great as we hope, then delaying delivery is itself an enormous cost. It might not show up in IE's balance sheet but it is.

We have the RO, we have the money, we have the political will - let's get going.