DART+ (DART Expansion)

AngryLips

One thing not mentioned of Dart+ services terminating in Spencer Dock is the fact that most people aren't necessarily traveling to that part of the city when they travel into town. Yet the station is quite poorly connected with only the Luas bringing people towards O'Connell and Henry Street. You'd think BusConnects would better serve Spencer Dock in future but it doesn't. When compared to Heuston or Connolly, Spencer Dock is poorly served by bus routes.

murphaph

I would hope that most people would walk to their final destination from SD station. Most people would be prepared to walk 15 minutes either side of their train commute I'd wager. But I agree that onward bus connections should definitely form a part of the overall plan. One would hope that it's just too soon to plan bus routes for a project that's years away from delivery.

As for "needing" to build 4 terminating platforms well I'm not sure I even by that because the existing two terminating platforms at the current station will be needlessly abandoned once SD is open. I suspect two terminating platforms are all we need to build but it would mean keeping the existing station in operation until DU happens. Yes there's less operational flexibility in that option but it is an option.

Anyway I've said my peace. Let them build whatever they want to build but don't be surprised if the existence, location and crucial nature of SD station later prevent DU from being built as planned, which was the best way. It may end up being the excuse not to build it at all.

Still nobody has tried to explain where they think all these new DART+ services could terminate during a closure of SD.

Given that SD station will likely be built as designed, let's move on an discuss that aspect perhaps. Short of building a third disposable station in the Docklands I see no real alternative or else they presumably wouldn't be building SD station to begin with.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447727#Comment_119447727

I can’t agree with that.

The G Spine will terminate nearby on Castleforbes Road and will bring people along the Quays, passing O’Connell Bridge every 6-8 minutes, likely via New Wapping Street.

The 71 & 72 will also operate along New Wapping Street and the Quays (again passing O’Connell Bridge) every 15 minutes and continue through the Liberties.

The O will stop on North Wall Quay, a five minute walk away, bringing people to the south inner city or back towards Amiens Street every 8 minutes.

The N4 links to Fairview from New Wapping Street every 10 minutes.

That’s five frequent public transport connections including LUAS - how many do you need?

It’s also only a short walk across the Samuel Beckett bridge to the Pearse Street area.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447785#Comment_119447785

It's also one of the biggest, densest employment sites in the country. Lots of people travel there, and if there's an improvement on train frequency/reliability, then people will change how they get there. More people will choose to live along the train line and commute than before.

murphaph

I know Clonburris has been mentioned previously in the thread but I didn't see anything posted about the fact it has been formally approved for funding by the state to actually build the infrastructure. It has long been an obvious place to build new homes and it will house 23k people which is a town the size of Naas.

Clonburris will heavily depend on the expanded DART network to function so it's going to be interesting to see if DART is delivered on time there.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445704#Comment_119445704

This is just throwing out a bunch of easy answers. You say "build any void large enough to set a TBM off from" yet ignore the fact that an enormous area is required at the launch site as there are huge amounts of spoil out and materials in to be dealt with. There is no way an enclosed station many metres underground is compatible with launching a TBM, nevermind it remaining a live train station. This would create far more disruption and impose more limitations than the SD station you are moaning about!

You could bore into a station there but again if it is a live station, it imposes unnecessary problems. If the TBM is largely dismantled, this would require a lot of space and a much bigger underground void than a station alone. It is also likely to involve mining under the existing old NWQ station building to get enough space (as there will be limitations on how far you can push the station back northwards as that impacts the gradient down into the station). And if you have buildings overhead, it makes it far more difficult to get large equipment out and furthur dismantling/cutting up would require even more space again. Abandoning the TBM underground means turning it off the track alignment which again requires lots of space given limited turning angles, etc.

Trying to build the final tunnel station now only creates unnecessary future problems which have to be accommodated in the design now, adding significantly to the cost. The DART+ West Business Case probably wouldn't stck up with that thrown in because there are no benefits to DART+ West to justify this cost.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448190#Comment_119448190

I think what's abundantly clear here is that the Dart+ RO should have better addressed the impact on DU. This is not a fantasy future project, it has had tonnes of money and planning pumped into it.

We can debate it all day but without doing site inspections and engineering reports, none of our questions can be answered. Let's hope DCC / ABP require this.

I would rather see Dart+ plow ahead ASAP rather than delay it for years on future DU integration. However, a "let's deal with that elephant later" approach is beyond unacceptable.

murphaph

We clearly fundamentally disagree but I'm not going to labour the point because they are going to build SD station as planned. That's the reality. I'm not going to be the poster who argues on and on for something that isn't going to happen.

We shall see what impact SD station has on DU later. I predict the impact will be extremely negative.

For what it's worth I just passed through a station here in Berlin that had an entire station box constructed for a line that was only added several years later. It's a common practice in cities with long term strategic planning. Our problem is not being able to commit to things.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447785#Comment_119447785

Let's not forget the new interchange at Glasnevin which allows Dart+ W and SW to change to Metro. Unless you work in the North Docklands I imagine a lot of people will switch here. You then have unlimited connections in town.

Just as an aside, I live 5 minutes walk from this future station, so I am beyond excited at the thoughts of it 🤤😂

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448715#Comment_119448715

even before Metro is open, I'd say a lot will transfer from W to SW there to go to Pearse and GCD (assuming it's possible to squeeze onto a SW train).

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448750#Comment_119448750

Will there be a pure DART station at Glasnevin before metro sees the intermodal interchange one built?

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449680#Comment_119449680

good question, I assumed they would but perhaps not.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448633#Comment_119448633

Well the impact on DU was considered prior to the RO and in selecting the SD station location, depth, etc. The Docklands Station Options Study Options Sift 1 Report produced a long list of sites and selected some for further assessment. Building an underground station south of Mayor St isn't even considered, it simply isn't compatible with the tunnel.

https://www.dartplus.ie/getattachment/1fb70388-34c2-40ac-8501-5143b9cb42ee/Annex-9-1-Docklands-Station-Options-Study-Options-Sift-1-Report%2C-AECOM-on-behalf-of-the-NTA-20th-Dec-2018.pdf

Option 2B in the Docklands Station Options Study Summary Report discusses the station at the currently proposed location and how the tunnel could be accommodated - basically build a void underneath. If ABP require anything relating to DU, it'll be doing that. Even that doesnt necessarily avoid any impacts on the tunnel as there could still be issues with the portal further north. Maybe the DART+ team decided that there will likely be a closure required at SD station anyway due to the portal, so they can just dig down deeper through the station then without additional disruption.

https://www.dartplus.ie/getattachment/14fd5087-ca53-4ef2-a43f-45b62c86351a/Annex-9-3-Docklands-Station-Options-Study-Summary-Report.pdf

Building the station south of Mayor Street should be put to bed now. The idea that a relatively shallow station built outside where TBMs will either be launched or extraced is going to create more difficulties for the tunnel than a very deep station built where the TBMs will either be launched or extraced is extremely flawed logic. The engineers discounted it straight away.

murphaph

Where do you think upwards of 20 trains per hour will be terminated and turned around when SD is closed to facilitate the construction of DU?

gjim

It's not just DU that will cause disruption - building Glasnevin station - part of the ML project - will cause even worse disruption. So should we give up on DART+ or ML because of this?

The prospect of future disruption should not be used as an excuse for blocking important projects. Yes, integrated planning and engineering can sometimes alleviate some of the future pain but not always. Some form of disruption is nearly always part of the cost of developing PT - particularly in Dublin where the existing infrastructure is so poor. We can't be paralysed by the prospect of it.

Practically speaking, what I expect is that DART SW trains will nearly all end up terminating in Hueston while DART W services will be serverely curtailed as they contend for space in Connolly. So a huge reduction in quality of service for a year maybe after a few decades of DART+ levels of service. A price worth paying - if the alternative is to go back to the drawing board to try to redesign both DU and DART+. And I'm not sure there is any way to actually avoid the disruption even with a full redesign given that DU is not going to be considered until DART+ is finished.

murphaph

A year of that level of catastrophic reduction in service levels would not be accepted as a price worth paying for DU by the vast majority of the travelling public. Let's be honest here. The powers that be will not be able to sell that, which means DU will not proceed under those conditions. Remember how hard it was to sell the comparatively mild Luas disruption? So hard that Luas ended up as two disconnected lines for years! We are talking about disruption an order of magnitude worse than Luas construction if the new DART+ network is effectively suspended for a year (and I believe that to be a very optimistic estimate as we are talking about building a TBM launch shaft in that time).

I think you have it completely backwards by the way. Dublin is a blank canvas with nothing below the city beyond the sewers. It should be easy to plan things in an integrated way given such a clean slate. Station boxes for interchanges could all be built to facilitate simply boring in and out later. It's the cities with a bunch of existing lines to integrate that have it hard. It isn't the length that made Crossrail complicated, it was all the "stuff" in the way. No, our problem is that we cannot commit to long term plans and then build towards them.

By the way, Heuston doesn't have the capacity to terminate those trains in addition to what it currently handles. IE already added platforms to the station during the last rebuild as it was struggling then already at peak times. A significant reduction in services would also be expected on DART SW if everything had to terminate in Heuston.

strassenwo!f

I was surprised by this comment by gjim above:

'It's not just DU that will cause disruption - building Glasnevin station - part of the ML project - will cause even worse disruption. So should we give up on DART+ or ML because of this?'

I'd understood that the whole point of building the ML through Glasnevin Junction was that it wouldn't cause disruption.

Why else would you move the metrolink from Drumcondra, where the local population is significantly higher and the population density is about 40% higher than at Glasnevin Junction, and where the metrolink would not cannibalise a recently-built tram line which is adjacent to the location?

Rulmeq

>>"Why else would you move the metrolink from Drumcondra"

Because things can be relative. and also, Glasnevin has greater potential, and you can increase population when you provide the services.

brianc89

I wonder what the unofficial plan is for Glasnevin station. It's not part of Dart+ RO, but construction of the Metro is assumed to crossover with construction of Dart+. It would make sense that Glasnevin construction will be prioritized if Metro is approved.

Also, Glasnevin site is much less developed than Drumcondra, so it's far easier for construction. Just imagine the delays if a block of 1850s Georgian houses had to be demolished. @gjim, maybe they could just temporarily relocate them...

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450042#Comment_119450042

Likely the same place as when a station further south closed because of all the missing around with TBMs!

The existing Docklands station should be retained and adding two platforms (to bring to the same number as SD) shouldn't be an issue.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453149#Comment_119453149

Glasnevin station will be part of Metrolink. There will be track adjustments required from IÉ to facilitate the works, not sure if this needs a RO.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453417#Comment_119453417

Yes thanks Pete... That's the official plan.

Assuming the Metro goes as planned though, there will be crossover on timelines. Therefore it's not unreasonable to expect Glasnevin will be constructed concurrently with Dart+.

It's sunny out today, let's be slightly optimistic like..

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453363#Comment_119453363

Then why on earth not just do that now at lower cost for DART+ and not bother with the SD station at all, including all the problems it creates for DU later???

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453524#Comment_119453524

The station absolutely has to go beside the Luas stop. A 10-15 minute connection for a Luas is not workable.

However, herein lies the future problem for DU. It would be like closing Heuston and moving all platforms temporarily to Heuston West. People could still walk to Heuston Luas for a connection......

Can you imagine if anything close to this was suggested for a future project in Dublin? It would be laughed and ridiculed.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453471#Comment_119453471

it would farcical if there was no way to transfer between the W and SW lines for 5 years or whatever. Even a temporary platform arrangement with no access from the street would be better.

is the plan to mine out the Metro station at Glasnevin? Would this mean truncating both W and SW lines for a year or more?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453524#Comment_119453524

Because SD station will be better located and a more attractive terminus for passengers.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454081#Comment_119454081

It's a straight station box dig, there's definitely going to be severe, lengthy disruption to at least one line, probably both. Doing at the same time as Dart+ is smart, but I've no idea how they're going to maintain services from Maynooth or further out.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454464#Comment_119454464

Sorry that's a really weak argument. It's around the corner! The Luas stop on Mayor St. would need to be relocated during DU works anyway so just relocate it now to the eastern bank of the canal. That's a three minute walk (off street) from the front door of Docklands station, without even needing to cross a road. I cannot believe we are suggesting that it makes more sense to build a multi tens of millions (temporary) station that will interfere with DU to the point it will itself need a replacement, rather than just expanding the existing temporary station and relocating the Luas stop to be even closer than it is now.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455104#Comment_119455104

I agree with you broadly on this. Moving the Luas stop should be considered. Maybe it has if anyone knows?

But we shouldn't underestimate the importance of quick connections. The current walk from Docklands to Spencer Dock Luas is 6/7minutes. Factor in different walking speeds and waiting for a Luas, it's really a 10 to 15 minutes connection. This is too long and would not be embraced by passengers.

If they moved the Spencer Dock Luas to the back of Convention centre, it halves the walking distance. I think this would be an acceptable connection time that would allow the station to flourish.

murphaph

I honestly think most DART+ passengers alighting in the Docklands (at any station) will just walk to their final destination. Nevertheless it's easy to improve the existing connection to Luas by relocating the stop as discussed and if you really want a cherry on top until DU is built, convert the straight path along the canal to be fully enclosed and out of the weather. Then you can add travelators. These double your walking speed. These measures would all still cost a fraction of the price of building a full blown station at SD and would deliver almost the same utility and the whole lot gets binned when DU is built anyway.