Indeed. It's a big claim but IMO it would not be surprising to find out that there were at the very least, dissenting voices at senior levels to the whole SD station plan. To me the idea is plain bonkers, but only if you want DU to be built.
Any chance there's any more information on this? It is a very big claim which is at the very heart of the discussion we are having here.
Irish Rail weren't keen on the Spencer Dock station idea, they wanted an enhanced docklands station until DU was built, with the short walk to the connecting luas and far lower cost.
The NTA insisted that Spencer Dock station be included in Dart West and then when they got that informed Irish Rail that that was the end of DU. Creegan(NTA) is dead set against DU, not for any logical reason, some sort of personal grievance.
DU simply won't be built, at least until there's regime change at the NTA or a competent minister of transport/Taoiseach insists on it but that's even further away.
Oh and the plan also calls for the closure of Docklands and using the space to store spoil! But you yourself said it should be retained to use as a diversionary station if/when DU is built. So clearly you don't agree with all the "assessments" that have been made in relation to this project either!!
You've completely misunderstood the Luas stop moving idea. Please read it again. It does not involve laying an inch of track.
Pete, you'll forgive me if I don't automatically assume that the decisions that have been made were the right ones. A decision was also made not to connect the red and green Luas lines.
The cost of replacing the station will be relatively small. For SD station, they will excavate dowm almost 7m below the level of Mayor Street, the cost of this and the associated retaining structures will be useful come DU, making the project cheaper and reducing timeline.
For someone so concerned about "waste", suggesting a 700m diversionof the Luas stop is ridiculous. It would also be dependent on both tracks of the Luas making two turns at New Wapping St/Castleforbes Rd.
And the tunnel is unlikely to happen for at leasy 20 years, SD station will be justify its cost in that time, plus much of that cost can be offset against reduced works for the tunnel. Reusing existing Docklands station was assessed along with SD and rejected in favour of the latter.
@gjim what do you think of this solution? It's cheaper and easier, and less likely to cause disruption in future projects. The station could also be retained for additional intercity capacity to Sligo / Limerick / Cork etc on busy weekends for concerts and gigs etc.
Not to forget that passengers will have other options to get into the city centre by switching at Broombridge / Glasnevin.
Definitely worth considering I think...
I honestly think most DART+ passengers alighting in the Docklands (at any station) will just walk to their final destination. Nevertheless it's easy to improve the existing connection to Luas by relocating the stop as discussed and if you really want a cherry on top until DU is built, convert the straight path along the canal to be fully enclosed and out of the weather. Then you can add travelators. These double your walking speed. These measures would all still cost a fraction of the price of building a full blown station at SD and would deliver almost the same utility and the whole lot gets binned when DU is built anyway.
I agree with you broadly on this. Moving the Luas stop should be considered. Maybe it has if anyone knows?
But we shouldn't underestimate the importance of quick connections. The current walk from Docklands to Spencer Dock Luas is 6/7minutes. Factor in different walking speeds and waiting for a Luas, it's really a 10 to 15 minutes connection. This is too long and would not be embraced by passengers.
If they moved the Spencer Dock Luas to the back of Convention centre, it halves the walking distance. I think this would be an acceptable connection time that would allow the station to flourish.
Sorry that's a really weak argument. It's around the corner! The Luas stop on Mayor St. would need to be relocated during DU works anyway so just relocate it now to the eastern bank of the canal. That's a three minute walk (off street) from the front door of Docklands station, without even needing to cross a road. I cannot believe we are suggesting that it makes more sense to build a multi tens of millions (temporary) station that will interfere with DU to the point it will itself need a replacement, rather than just expanding the existing temporary station and relocating the Luas stop to be even closer than it is now.
It's a straight station box dig, there's definitely going to be severe, lengthy disruption to at least one line, probably both. Doing at the same time as Dart+ is smart, but I've no idea how they're going to maintain services from Maynooth or further out.
Because SD station will be better located and a more attractive terminus for passengers.
it would farcical if there was no way to transfer between the W and SW lines for 5 years or whatever. Even a temporary platform arrangement with no access from the street would be better.
is the plan to mine out the Metro station at Glasnevin? Would this mean truncating both W and SW lines for a year or more?
The station absolutely has to go beside the Luas stop. A 10-15 minute connection for a Luas is not workable.
However, herein lies the future problem for DU. It would be like closing Heuston and moving all platforms temporarily to Heuston West. People could still walk to Heuston Luas for a connection......
Can you imagine if anything close to this was suggested for a future project in Dublin? It would be laughed and ridiculed.
Then why on earth not just do that now at lower cost for DART+ and not bother with the SD station at all, including all the problems it creates for DU later???
Yes thanks Pete... That's the official plan.
Assuming the Metro goes as planned though, there will be crossover on timelines. Therefore it's not unreasonable to expect Glasnevin will be constructed concurrently with Dart+.
It's sunny out today, let's be slightly optimistic like..
Glasnevin station will be part of Metrolink. There will be track adjustments required from IÉ to facilitate the works, not sure if this needs a RO.
Likely the same place as when a station further south closed because of all the missing around with TBMs!
The existing Docklands station should be retained and adding two platforms (to bring to the same number as SD) shouldn't be an issue.
I wonder what the unofficial plan is for Glasnevin station. It's not part of Dart+ RO, but construction of the Metro is assumed to crossover with construction of Dart+. It would make sense that Glasnevin construction will be prioritized if Metro is approved.
Also, Glasnevin site is much less developed than Drumcondra, so it's far easier for construction. Just imagine the delays if a block of 1850s Georgian houses had to be demolished. @gjim, maybe they could just temporarily relocate them...
>>"Why else would you move the metrolink from Drumcondra"
Because things can be relative. and also, Glasnevin has greater potential, and you can increase population when you provide the services.
I was surprised by this comment by gjim above:
'It's not just DU that will cause disruption - building Glasnevin station - part of the ML project - will cause even worse disruption. So should we give up on DART+ or ML because of this?'
I'd understood that the whole point of building the ML through Glasnevin Junction was that it wouldn't cause disruption.
Why else would you move the metrolink from Drumcondra, where the local population is significantly higher and the population density is about 40% higher than at Glasnevin Junction, and where the metrolink would not cannibalise a recently-built tram line which is adjacent to the location?
A year of that level of catastrophic reduction in service levels would not be accepted as a price worth paying for DU by the vast majority of the travelling public. Let's be honest here. The powers that be will not be able to sell that, which means DU will not proceed under those conditions. Remember how hard it was to sell the comparatively mild Luas disruption? So hard that Luas ended up as two disconnected lines for years! We are talking about disruption an order of magnitude worse than Luas construction if the new DART+ network is effectively suspended for a year (and I believe that to be a very optimistic estimate as we are talking about building a TBM launch shaft in that time).
I think you have it completely backwards by the way. Dublin is a blank canvas with nothing below the city beyond the sewers. It should be easy to plan things in an integrated way given such a clean slate. Station boxes for interchanges could all be built to facilitate simply boring in and out later. It's the cities with a bunch of existing lines to integrate that have it hard. It isn't the length that made Crossrail complicated, it was all the "stuff" in the way. No, our problem is that we cannot commit to long term plans and then build towards them.
By the way, Heuston doesn't have the capacity to terminate those trains in addition to what it currently handles. IE already added platforms to the station during the last rebuild as it was struggling then already at peak times. A significant reduction in services would also be expected on DART SW if everything had to terminate in Heuston.
It's not just DU that will cause disruption - building Glasnevin station - part of the ML project - will cause even worse disruption. So should we give up on DART+ or ML because of this?
The prospect of future disruption should not be used as an excuse for blocking important projects. Yes, integrated planning and engineering can sometimes alleviate some of the future pain but not always. Some form of disruption is nearly always part of the cost of developing PT - particularly in Dublin where the existing infrastructure is so poor. We can't be paralysed by the prospect of it.
Practically speaking, what I expect is that DART SW trains will nearly all end up terminating in Hueston while DART W services will be serverely curtailed as they contend for space in Connolly. So a huge reduction in quality of service for a year maybe after a few decades of DART+ levels of service. A price worth paying - if the alternative is to go back to the drawing board to try to redesign both DU and DART+. And I'm not sure there is any way to actually avoid the disruption even with a full redesign given that DU is not going to be considered until DART+ is finished.
Where do you think upwards of 20 trains per hour will be terminated and turned around when SD is closed to facilitate the construction of DU?
Well the impact on DU was considered prior to the RO and in selecting the SD station location, depth, etc. The Docklands Station Options Study Options Sift 1 Report produced a long list of sites and selected some for further assessment. Building an underground station south of Mayor St isn't even considered, it simply isn't compatible with the tunnel.
Option 2B in the Docklands Station Options Study Summary Report discusses the station at the currently proposed location and how the tunnel could be accommodated - basically build a void underneath. If ABP require anything relating to DU, it'll be doing that. Even that doesnt necessarily avoid any impacts on the tunnel as there could still be issues with the portal further north. Maybe the DART+ team decided that there will likely be a closure required at SD station anyway due to the portal, so they can just dig down deeper through the station then without additional disruption.
Building the station south of Mayor Street should be put to bed now. The idea that a relatively shallow station built outside where TBMs will either be launched or extraced is going to create more difficulties for the tunnel than a very deep station built where the TBMs will either be launched or extraced is extremely flawed logic. The engineers discounted it straight away.
good question, I assumed they would but perhaps not.
Will there be a pure DART station at Glasnevin before metro sees the intermodal interchange one built?
even before Metro is open, I'd say a lot will transfer from W to SW there to go to Pearse and GCD (assuming it's possible to squeeze onto a SW train).
Let's not forget the new interchange at Glasnevin which allows Dart+ W and SW to change to Metro. Unless you work in the North Docklands I imagine a lot of people will switch here. You then have unlimited connections in town.
Just as an aside, I live 5 minutes walk from this future station, so I am beyond excited at the thoughts of it 🤤😂
We clearly fundamentally disagree but I'm not going to labour the point because they are going to build SD station as planned. That's the reality. I'm not going to be the poster who argues on and on for something that isn't going to happen.
We shall see what impact SD station has on DU later. I predict the impact will be extremely negative.
For what it's worth I just passed through a station here in Berlin that had an entire station box constructed for a line that was only added several years later. It's a common practice in cities with long term strategic planning. Our problem is not being able to commit to things.
