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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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Sam Russell

Stopping the Wexford train at Bray makes sense as the train is as slow as a Dart and can be turned back giving a much improved service to Wexford. Not all IC trains would be turned but most would. This would allow the Wexford train to terminate on the island platform and passengers would simply cross the platform to a waiting Dart. I think this would be essential if a 10 min Dart service was in operation.

Though if you were on a train coming in from the West that was terminating at Docklands and wanted to head to GCD, wouldn't you just change at Whitworth Road for a train heading to GCD?

Basically Whitworth Road becomes a major interchange junction for folks coming in from West Dublin.

Heading to OCS, College Green/Tara, SSG/Grafton Street then change to Metro at Whitworth Road.

Heading to the Airport from West Dublin, change to Metro at Whitworth Road.

Heading to GCD and on a Docklands bound train, change for a GCD bound train at Whitworth Road.

loyatemu

MJohnston wrote: »

I've said this a few times, but one of the big things that has changed about the city since DU was first mooted is the fact that Connolly is less important as a central hub for the rest of the network. A greater and greater amount of workers in Dublin are heading for the Docklands and environs, so the Docklands station has become a much more interesting terminus for particular lines, especially with the Luas connection just as close as it is in Connolly (once you figure in time spent walking along platforms anyway).

I know this is known by all above, I just thought it was worth stating in the context of where you route these hypothetical new DART lines.

Dockland's station is fine for the IFSC and Spencer Dock - it's a bit of hike from the southside docks (or "Silicon Docks" as the press like to call it). It's 1.6km walk from Docklands Station to Google's office for example, compared with 100m from GCD Station. The numbers are still stacked heavily in favour of trains serving Connolly->Lansdowne.

MJohnston

I've said this a few times, but one of the big things that has changed about the city since DU was first mooted is the fact that Connolly is less important as a central hub for the rest of the network. A greater and greater amount of workers in Dublin are heading for the Docklands and environs, so the Docklands station has become a much more interesting terminus for particular lines, especially with the Luas connection just as close as it is in Connolly (once you figure in time spent walking along platforms anyway).

I know this is known by all above, I just thought it was worth stating in the context of where you route these hypothetical new DART lines.

LXFlyer

Telchak wrote: »

I'd say more likely it'll be Pace & Cellbridge trains terminating in Docklands. With the IFSC as a destination, and transfer options at Cross Guns to GCD bound DARTs from Maynooth and Metro Metro Link, it would be quite an attractive option from the west.

Not quite the network effect of DART Underground, by but a good alternative considering there seems to be no political will for it.

That’s what I would think too, but you still have the issue of conflicts north of Connolly between Northern & Maynooth Line services due to there being only at grade junctions. Not going to be easy to path!

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

you'd need an interchange at Ossory Rd between the Maynooth and Drogheda lines, I'm not sure there's space there.

Alternative might be Maynooth-Bray/Greystones with the Drogheda trains terminating in Connolly and improved interchange facilities there (i.e. a bridge connecting the shed platforms with 5, 6 & 7 - there used to be one there).

Or you could alternate Drogheda-Bray with Maynooth-Bray, with the non-through services going to Connolly and Docklands respectively.

The problem is huge numbers want to go to Tara, Pearse and GCD, but you can't run all the trains from Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda over the Loop Line - inevitably the trains that do go through to GCD will be jammed compared to the trains that don't. DU solved this problem by having an extra river crossing and route into Pearse - this hodgepodge does not solve that problem.

Indeed the key here will be creating excellent interchanges with Metro luas and other DART services. I think alternating is a bad idea, it's better to have lines on a map and that's it, it creates less confusion and you can have all your frequency concentrated on one route. If we have three DART lines operating at a good 10 minute frequency, at least one of them is going to Docklands.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Maynooth/M3-Docklands
Hazelhatch-Grand Canal Dock (new stations at Cabra, Glasnevin and west of Heuston)
Drogheda-Greystones

you'd need an interchange at Ossory Rd between the Maynooth and Drogheda lines, I'm not sure there's space there.

Alternative might be Maynooth-Bray/Greystones with the Drogheda trains terminating in Connolly and improved interchange facilities there (i.e. a bridge connecting the shed platforms with 5, 6 & 7 - there used to be one there).

Or you could alternate Drogheda-Bray with Maynooth-Bray, with the non-through services going to Connolly and Docklands respectively.

The problem is huge numbers want to go to Tara, Pearse and GCD, but you can't run all the trains from Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda over the Loop Line - inevitably the trains that do go through to GCD will be jammed compared to the trains that don't. DU solved this problem by having an extra river crossing and route into Pearse - this hodgepodge does not solve that problem.

Telchak

cgcsb wrote: »

How will all these high frequency services work though?
Presumably all Maynooth and M3 Parkway DARTs will have to terminate at Docklands with good interchange opportunities with luas and metro and INTEGRATED TICKETING (which was promised and not delivered with the introduction of leap).
Howth DARTs would have to become high frequency shuttle

I'd say more likely it'll be Pace & Cellbridge trains terminating in Docklands. With the IFSC as a destination, and transfer options at Cross Guns to GCD bound DARTs from Maynooth and Metro Metro Link, it would be quite an attractive option from the west.

Not quite the network effect of DART Underground, by but a good alternative considering there seems to be no political will for it.

cgcsb

How will all these high frequency services work though?
Presumably all Maynooth and M3 Parkway DARTs will have to terminate at Docklands with good interchange opportunities with luas and metro and INTEGRATED TICKETING (which was promised and not delivered with the introduction of leap).
Howth DARTs would have to become high frequency shuttle

We'll effectively have 3 DART lines and a short DART shuttle in Howth.

Maynooth/M3-Docklands
Hazelhatch-Grand Canal Dock (new stations at Cabra, Glasnevin and west of Heuston)
Drogheda-Greystones

Assuming you take out all the level crossings, put in a fourth track to Heuston and have sufficient rolling stock with hybrid trains for the PPT section it should be doable and indeed should have been done 4 or 5 decades ago. How you're going to get intercity trains into the mix is anyone's guess. Rosslare services will probably be gone altogether at that stage. Sligo services will have a real hoot crawling along the Maynooth line behind DARTs this should be made up by introducing time savings further out on the route, perhaps by double tracking some sections. If Dublin-Belfast is going to be high-speed and an hourly service or greater we'll need to get creative but with Brexit and all there might not be Dublin-Belfast trains anyway.

ciaran75

quick question

If they upgrade maynooth, drogeda, celbridge lines to DART with high frequency service is everything still planned to be routed through Connolly, how is that possible with loop line bridge and current constraints. I thought that was the reason they planned DU

Sierra Oscar

bk wrote: »

I'd say this option might be more likely:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.363421,-6.273814,249a,35y,44.92t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

See that field in the top left corner, plenty of space for a station box there and right next to both tracks. It would be closer alignment with the stations before and after it.

I'm thinking you would have the Irish Rail train station at Des Kellys. Entrance to the station where Des Kelly currently is and the platforms behind it. You then have an order pass over to the Metro station underground from there.

That would seem to fit in with the article which suggests there will be a Glasnevin station in or around the Whitworth Road / Cross Guns Bridge area.

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I imagine it would be impractical to put a station here? would provide an opportunity to create a big interchange station between luas, both lines and the greenway for cycling commuters, although its definitely out of the way for other purposes and probably not a suitable location for it from an engineering aspect.

I'd say this option might be more likely:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.363421,-6.273814,249a,35y,44.92t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

See that field in the top left corner, plenty of space for a station box there and right next to both tracks. It would be closer alignment with the stations before and after it.

I'm thinking you would have the Irish Rail train station at Des Kellys. Entrance to the station where Des Kelly currently is and the platforms behind it. You then have an order pass over to the Metro station underground from there.

LXFlyer

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I imagine it would be impractical to put a station here? would provide an opportunity to create a big interchange station between luas, both lines and the greenway for cycling commuters, although its definitely out of the way for other purposes and probably not a suitable location for it from an engineering aspect.

Pretty much impossible - there are two tunnels there (not bridges) and curves either side.

riddlinrussell

roadmaster wrote: »

Yeah id say one or the other, would Irish rail take in to account common since like where higher density buildings will be located

I imagine it would be impractical to put a station here? would provide an opportunity to create a big interchange station between luas, both lines and the greenway for cycling commuters, although its definitely out of the way for other purposes and probably not a suitable location for it from an engineering aspect.

roadmaster

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I'd imagine it would be located around here.

Planning permission has been granted for a big apartment block complex for the disused land between Carnlough Road and the tracks so I'm not sure how much space will be left once that goes up.

It would be a 10 minute walk from the station to the Luas stop.

They could put it in this area too.

Yeah id say one or the other, would Irish rail take in to account common since like where higher density buildings will be located

Sierra Oscar

roadmaster wrote: »

If they where to put a stop in Cabra i cant see to many places to put one apart from the strip land between Fassuagh Ave and Cabra Road

I'd imagine it would be located around here.

Planning permission has been granted for a big apartment block complex for the disused land between Carnlough Road and the tracks so I'm not sure how much space will be left once that goes up.

It would be a 10 minute walk from the station to the Luas stop.

They could put it in this area too.

marno21

Stephen15 wrote: »

DART to Drogheda every 5 minutes

The work of Fergus O'Dowd no doubt

roadmaster

If they where to put a stop in Cabra i cant see to many places to put one apart from the strip land between Fassuagh Ave and Cabra Road

Stephen15

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is interesting.

New Dart plan backs away from underground route

DART to Drogheda every 5 minutes

LeinsterDub

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is interesting.

New Dart plan backs away from underground route

Aside from the fact it completely boycotts the southside

Jesus the indo is such a rag it's hardly a boycott.

According to the documents, the NTA believes it should "prioritise" investment in non-tunnel elements as "this will enable additional services to be put in place much earlier". The plan is to rely heavily on existing infrastructure rather than create new routes, meaning a large part of the cost will be new trains.

As I've been saying for years . This plan appears to be max out the current infrastructure and then they will have no choice to build the tunnel and also it will be cheaper as associated upgrade costs and trains will already be purchased.

Sierra Oscar

This is interesting.

New Dart plan backs away from underground route

Documents seen by this newspaper show the NTA now wants to extend a Dart service from Heuston Station through the Phoenix Park Tunnel to new stops in Cabra, Glasnevin and finally the Docklands.

prinzeugen

lucernarian wrote: »

No offense and I agree with the rest but this? We're talking east Co. Meath and north Co. Dublin, not Irkutsk. Drogheda and Laytown are within that distance with a ready 38kV network nearby, Balbriggan and Skerries are of course within that distance from each other. The amount of ESB work reqd would be minimal even with supplies going past 2 MVA rating.

You would need a 38kv supply to the railway every 7 or so miles. Unless the 38kv line runs parallel to the railway, then you need extra ESB lines/underground cables.

You could have supplies 14 miles apart but that would require 7 miles of oil cooled cable to supply the feeder.

Another complication is that 2 separate supplies are usually used so if one goes out, it switches to the other.

SeanW

Not necessarily, DC has the advantage that it's simpler and the equipment needed on board the trains is less, so DC enabling lighter trains is actually better for short haul services especially with frequent stops. You could electrify Dublin to Drogheda and Hazelhatch with 1500VDC and beyond to Belfast and Cork with 25kV 50hz AC.

If 3rd rail were allowed in Irish law we could even do what Metro North Railroads' New Haven Line does just outside New York City and physically separate the DC and AC portions of an electrified mainline by having 3rd rail provide the DC @700V (as is done from Pelham, NY to Grand Central Terminal) and the overhead lines providing AC @12.5kV 60hz from Pelham to New Haven Connecticut and the electrified branch to New Canaan. Since 1908 when this system was first put in service, the New Haven Railroad, Penn Central and now Metro North Railroad in succession have acquired and used dual-electric railcars and locomotives, most recently the M-8 railcar, do run the entire length of the line from Grand Central to New Haven.

Converting and extending the DART to 3rd rail for DC sections could even avoid the problems regarding tunnels and low over-bridges and allow, for example, electric rail service in the Phoenix Park Tunnel, without diesel or batteries. It would also make it physically impossible to apply the wrong current to the wrong transformer on the train, because the pantograph would never collect DC overhead and the contact shoe would never pick up AC from the 3rd rail.

murphaph

Long term we'd be better off biting the bullet and going with 25kVac from now on, buying dual mode vehicles and gradually eliminating the existing DC network. It's still very small in reality.

lucernarian

prinzeugen wrote: »

You need a feeder station every 7 miles or so with 1500 V DC

Considering how rural parts of the line to Drogheda are, I would think that they would need new ESB lines (and the planning problems) or heavy feeder cables trackside if they used DC.

No offense and I agree with the rest but this? We're talking east Co. Meath and north Co. Dublin, not Irkutsk. Drogheda and Laytown are within that distance with a ready 38kV network nearby, Balbriggan and Skerries are of course within that distance from each other. The amount of ESB work reqd would be minimal even with supplies going past 2 MVA rating.

SeanW

It should be understood also that the Southern Dart has to deal with specific issues between Bun Laoghare and Killiney that add significant time to Bray-CC, lots of sharp curves, that dodgy slab track around Glengageary ... None of that would apply on the DART to Drogheda.

alias no.9

MaccaTacca wrote: »

Of course there are some people living in West-Dublin taking as long if not longer than people who live in bray to get into the city center.

Ongar, Clonee, Lucan etc are about 15-20km from the city center, the same as Bray and parts of Kildare. An imaginary county line does not change the fact that many of these commuter towns are now parts of the continuous built up area of Dublin.

The distance from the City center to Bray is significantly further than from Lucan to City Center, 21km v's 14km.

I live in Lucan, I work in Bray, if I pick up a taxi on the south quays, it's typically €20 home, I do live on the city side of Lucan.

From what my colleagues tell me, a taxi from city center to Bray rarely costs less than €40, often more.

prinzeugen

sdanseo wrote: »

What causes 1500V to be so expensive to install?

Some of the figures I've seen being thrown around - like €2bn for what is essentially some new trains and maybe 100km of catenary - is mad mad money.

You need a feeder station every 7 miles or so with 1500 DC compared to every 30 miles with 25kv AC. If there is no ESB lines near to the site of a feeder then you need big oil cooled cables (like you see on the underground in London) to run alongside the track.

Considering how rural parts of the line to Drogheda are, I would think that they would need new ESB lines (and the planning problems) or heavy feeder cables trackside if they used DC.

Also DC carries a stupid amount of amps so the overhead lines need to be heavier which is loads more copper.

With AC, yes you need to raise bridges etc to get clearance which costs, but it is cheaper in the long term. Lighter wires = less masts, low amps = less copper, higher voltage = less transformers/feeder stations.

Railway technology has moved on so it is possible to have dual voltage trains. Some of the DB units use 15kv 60hz AC in Germany, 1500v DC in Belgium and 25kv 50hz AC in France, all in one journey.

roadmaster

Weather its Hybrid or overhead cables at the end of the day these trains will be painted green and called DART and the that's what the general public will see them as

sdanseo

prinzeugen wrote: »

Electrification to Drogheda would be very expensive at 1500v DC. Unless they use dual voltage units (1500v DC/25kv AC) with a change over of voltages at Malahide or bi modes (1500v DC/diesel) but these would be sluggish.

What causes 1500V to be so expensive to install?

Some of the figures I've seen being thrown around - like €2bn for what is essentially some new trains and maybe 100km of catenary - is mad mad money.