DART+ (DART Expansion)

antoinolachtnai

Amazing but true (well almost true, the Luas is actually the busiest part of the current network, not the DART). Look at the density map at https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=016a1af631734f38a8c469ae7e5e93f8 . There are high density areas which are not adequately served by rail at all.

The fact that the coast is so well served and the western line is so badly served is not an accident at all. It is very much the result of a political decision.

liamog

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Amazing but true (well almost true, the Luas is actually the busiest part of the current network, not the DART). Look at the density map at https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=016a1af631734f38a8c469ae7e5e93f8 . There are high density areas which are not adequately served by rail at all.

The fact that the coast is so well served and the western line is so badly served is not an accident at all. It is very much the result of a political decision.

We are on a thread talking about a proposed inter-connector for suburban rail links. Your main objection seems to be it's flaws in it's delivery of urban rail lines to areas currently unserved by any rail service.

The LUAS is not part of the heavy rail network.
DART is our suburban network and LUAS/Future Metro our urban network.

marno21

Heuston Lines 12,413 (2,887 Commuter, 9,526 InterCity)

Considering the population and N7 congestion this really is a pathetic figure.

MJohnston

marno21 wrote: »

Heuston Lines 12,413 (2,887 Commuter, 9,526 InterCity)

Considering the population and N7 congestion this really is a pathetic figure.

What's the Luas figures from Red Cow?

wakka12

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Amazing but true (well almost true, the Luas is actually the busiest part of the current network, not the DART). Look at the density map at https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=016a1af631734f38a8c469ae7e5e93f8 . There are high density areas which are not adequately served by rail at all.

The fact that the coast is so well served and the western line is so badly served is not an accident at all. It is very much the result of a political decision.

Yes the entire south inner city and south of the city between the green and red line are sorely lacking in any rail transport

Bray Head

wakka12 wrote: »

Yes the entire south inner city and south of the city between the green and red line are sorely lacking in any rail transport

Correct. Long run I would send Metro North through Rathmines, Terenure and Templeogue to link up with the red line at Tallaght. Some of this - particularly past Bushy Park - could be surface running. But this is all dreaming of course.

Chivito550

Bray Head wrote: »

Correct. Long run I would send Metro North through Rathmines, Terenure and Templeogue to link up with the red line at Tallaght. Some of this - particularly past Bushy Park - could be surface running. But this is all dreaming of course.

Would much rather see it go to Rathfarnham and Knocklyon after Terenure. Those areas are badly in need of it. Could have a split at Terenure with one going to Templeogue, the other to Rathfarnham.

thomasj

derekbro wrote:

I think there would be a lot more people on the trains from Drogheda direction(DARTs from Malahide and Howth included) than on a train from Maynooth direction. I'm not sure why you think it would be the other way around as there are many more DART trains at the moment than trains from Maynooth.

Last year's census showed that more people used the maynooth line on that day than the northern line narrowly.

murphaph

thomasj wrote: »

Last year's census showed that more people used the maynooth line on that day than the northern line narrowly.

That's an incredibly statistic given the much lower frequency of trains on the Maynooth line! but long term the Maynooth line offers consistently more passengers as it is not bounded by the sea on one side.

marno21

murphaph wrote: »

That's an incredibly statistic given the much lower frequency of trains on the Maynooth line! but long term the Maynooth line offers consistently more passengers as it is not bounded by the sea on one side.

Have a look at Irish Rail's Twitter and every so often there's a barrage of complaints about major overcrowing on the Maynooth line. Not surprised at those stats.

lateconnection

Chivito550 wrote: »

Would much rather see it go to Rathfarnham and Knocklyon after Terenure. Those areas are badly in need of it. Could have a split at Terenure with one going to Templeogue, the other to Rathfarnham.

Totally agree. Public transport from Terenure, Rathfarnham, Firhouse, Ballyboden, Knocklyon is pretty bad. Overcrowded, infrequent and slow buses.

I used to get the bus from Ballyboden to city centre every morning, would get on at 7:15, and would be in work at 8:45. Most of that time was spent stuck in traffic. Now get a bus to Dundrum and then Luas to town. Saves over an hour every day on commuting.

After Dart Underground, MN and Luas Green Line conversion to metro, an underground metro line through these areas has to be prioritised. I know Swiftway is proposed, but the BRT thing is a joke and won't make much of a difference.

cgcsb

Completely agree regarding the south west of the city, Rathmines, terenure etc are some of our densest suburbs with only some sparadic patches of bus lane on narrow roads and no scope for any surface running luas. I'd also like to see some surface luas along the malahide Rd corridor

wakka12

Why should luas green line be replaced with metro..? Its fine. It does a good job. It gets you to town in a very reasonable time imo and is only overcrowded during early morning and late evening, which could be helped hugely by more trams/bigger trams rather than getting rid of it. Personally I love travelling above ground and would only choose under ground trains if I had to.

MJohnston

I can see the merits of converting Luas Green Line (or what will soon be just the southern half of it) to Metro, but it has to be behind more than just MN and DU on the priority list.

The south west and north west quadrants of the city are dismally under supplied by quality public transport, and they need to be considered before we start upgrading existing high quality services.

marno21

I think after this the priorities should be Metro connection from SSG to where the Green Line goes offline, then extending this Metro to Bray (could be done as Luas), a Metro system along roughly the R114 corridor. The R114 corridor area currrently has no rail access whatsoever, in contrast with the 4 rail lines and the 2 Luas lines.

Jaggo

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Amazing but true (well almost true, the Luas is actually the busiest part of the current network, not the DART). Look at the density map at https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=016a1af631734f38a8c469ae7e5e93f8 . There are high density areas which are not adequately served by rail at all.

The fact that the coast is so well served and the western line is so badly served is not an accident at all. It is very much the result of a political decision.

I am not sure where you are going with this point. The dart line was laid down in 1834 and its no surprise the populations densities have changed. The conversion on that line to the dart was planned early to mid seventies before much of the massive development of the western suburbs.

The only political element of the Dublin transport plan is making sure that the money is spend in rural ireland.

marno21

Jaggo wrote: »

I am not sure where you are going with this point. The dart line was laid down in 1834 and its no surprise the populations densities have changed. The conversion on that line to the dart was planned early to mid seventies before much of the massive development of the western suburbs.

The only political element of the Dublin transport plan is making sure that the money is spend in rural ireland.

The dynamic of the city changed greatly when the M50 was built which enabled developers to exploit the areas around it and now we have a massive car park mess. A wise city would have public transport to serve these in tandom. Report out this week saying the M50, N4 and N7 are almost at total gridlock. Widening any of them wouldn't do much because they all feed into each other and there's only so much widening can do to solve these problems.

wakka12

marno21 wrote: »

The dynamic of the city changed greatly when the M50 was built which enabled developers to exploit the areas around it and now we have a massive car park mess. A wise city would have public transport to serve these in tandom. Report out this week saying the M50, N4 and N7 are almost at total gridlock. Widening any of them wouldn't do much because they all feed into each other and there's only so much widening can do to solve these problems.

Has running a luas or some sort of public transport alongside the motorway ever been proposed? Wouldnt even cause much transport/business disruption to build

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

The dynamic of the city changed greatly when the M50 was built which enabled developers to exploit the areas around it and now we have a massive car park mess. A wise city would have public transport to serve these in tandom. Report out this week saying the M50, N4 and N7 are almost at total gridlock. Widening any of them wouldn't do much because they all feed into each other and there's only so much widening can do to solve these problems.

The M50 was planned around the same time as the DART. Both projects actually contradicted what each would do.

marno21

wakka12 wrote: »

Has running a luas or some sort of public transport alongside the motorway ever been proposed? Wouldnt even cause much transport/business disruption to build

The closest proposal would be Metro West.

annfield1978

Arup have picked up the DART Underground Western Tie In Study, having previously up the Route Selection for New Metro North and Tunnel & Station Configuration Study for DU & New MN

karma_coma

annfield1978 wrote: »

Arup have picked up the DART Underground Western Tie In Study, having previously up the Route Selection for New Metro North and Tunnel & Station Configuration Study for DU & New MN

Sorry, don't fully catch what you're trying to convey here. You're saying ARUP have been contracted by government to do a study for DART Underground's Heuston connection design?

annfield1978

karma_coma wrote: »

Sorry, don't fully catch what you're trying to convey here. You're saying ARUP have been contracted by government to do a study for DART Underground's Heuston connection design?

Yes, well the NTA have issued three separate tenders in relation to DU and NMN whcih have been picked up by Arup

Tunnel and Station Configuration Study considering NMN and DU
Route Selection Study for NMN
Western Tie in Study for DU covering Heuston, Inchicore area

When this Wetern Tie In Study is complete, there will be a Route Selection Study for DU

murphaph

All can kicking but at least Arup are getting a few bob out of it. Pathetic.

Idbatterim

All can kicking but at least Arup are getting a few bob out of it. Pathetic.

I wonder what outcome they will come up with, based on what the politicians have told them they want...

cgcsb

What a wanton waste of public cash

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

What a wanton waste of public cash

Yet again. Never forget that.

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

All can kicking but at least Arup are getting a few bob out of it. Pathetic.

The previous time a route question about this project was put to consultants was back in the very early part of this millennium, when the LUAS was stuck at St. Stephen's Green.

I can't off the top of my head remember who these experts were - it might have been Arup - they were asked if it would be possible to build an underground route between Spencer Dock and Heuston, via St. Stephen's Green.

Not, readers will note, whether this might be the best route for an underground cross-city route, what other routes might be possible, etc.

No, it was: is this route possible?

In due time, the Consultants (whoever they were) came back with a very weighty document, with all manner of things like environmental assessments, traffic analyses, overviews of passenger location, studies of network effects, etc. And the overall answer was: Yes, indeed, such a line could be built.

The whole thing put me in mind of the musician Captain Sensible, erstwhile of the punk group 'The Damned'. His one solo single mostly involved the lyrics: "I said 'Captain', he said 'what', I said 'Captain', he said 'what' (x2 or 3 times, until we finally had), I said 'Captain', he said 'what you want?'

The B-side was: "I said 'Captain', he said 'yeah', I said 'Captain', he said 'yeah', etc., etc.

The point, in case any readers are missing it, is that consultants have already been paid to analyse the route for the DART Underground project. In the first case they were given a route and asked if it would be possible; in the current situation - which should have happened 15-16 years ago - it appears they are now being asked what the best route across the city is?

MJohnston

If they say "not College Green" might you drop that topic once and for all?

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

If they say "not College Green" might you drop that topic once and for all?

I think it will be necessary to look at the analysis on its merits.