DART+ (DART Expansion)

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

Relevant to whom? The project has been canned. It's politically unacceptable for the rural dominated Dail to be seen doing anything for Dublin. Only when that is fixed, will DU see the light of day. Arguing about CG v SSG is ridiculous, don't you see that?

Yes, I do see that, and your comment is fair. It is ridiculous.

I have worked in both Munich and Frankfurt and have directly experienced the benefits of underground lines which connect most of a city's overground suburban lines. The Dart Underground plan was overall a good one, and it will hopefully see the light of day eventually.

jd

D.L.R. wrote:

I've had a gut feeling since DU was shelved that MN has overtaken it in terms of planning, and I wouldn't be surprised now if MN is approved and built first at this stage.

I wouldn't be surprised if they came back and extended the Luas to Fingas from Broombridge before they start either of the above!

strassenwo!f

I am, as a Dubliner, still curious as to why the powers that be in Dublin looked mainly to Porto as a model for Dublin's proposed underground plans. I remember that Ivor Callelly, a former Minister of State in the Department of Transport, was roundly derided for his efforts to learn from Munich. Mr Callelly may have erred on other things, but he was right there.

D.L.R.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I disagree with your gut. The last Government pulled a massive fudge on both MN and DU.

I hope so. But when have we ever built the project that was most important first? That and the absence of Irish Rail makes MN seem the easier prospect, politically speaking.

But as I say, I'd take either at this point, whatever makes Ireland cop on about underground rail.

salmocab

jd wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if they came back and extended the Luas to Fingas from Broombridge before they start either of the above!

More likely to Blanchardstown for the Childrens hospital when that gets sorted I would think.

strassenwo!f

A night's sleep often helps to clarify things. The poster Murphaph is still entirely right this morning that it is ridiculous at this stage to be arguing over the route of a line which is not going to be built in the near future. He didn't use the word 'utterly' in his post, but he could justifiably have.

When this sensible project comes around again, the landscape in Dublin will be different, given that the LUAS will then also be travelling through College Green and further into the heart of the city, not stuck at St. Stephen's Green as it currently is - and, of course, as it was when the recently cancelled route was designed.

Recent press reports about the city giving serious consideration to pedestrianisation of College Green are also very encouraging.

1huge1

jd wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if they came back and extended the Luas to Fingas from Broombridge before they start either of the above!

I would tend to agree, I've always found that when it comes to infrastructure projects like this, the first time doing something is the hardest.

When the Luas was originally being built, there was a lot of pressure from retailers in the city not to connect up the lines due to the loss of business they may of experienced during the construction and a lot of people were not convinced that Luas would be as successful as it has been.

However, when it came to further extensions, there was little to no issues, even the cross city luas has been broadly welcomed with its disruptions because people now know how much of a success it can be.

My point being is that, if MN does eventually get built, I would imagine it would greatly push DU back onto the agenda.

Sam Russell

There are four railway projects for Dublin. DU, MN, Dart ext to Airport, Dart ext to Manooth/Hazlehatch (electrification).

From your logic, the last two are just like the previous extensions of the Dart to Greystones and Malahide but both those were a long time ago. Look at how long the PPT and Grand Canal Dock are taking.

Carawaystick

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are four railway projects for Dublin. DU, MN, Dart ext to Airport, Dart ext to Manooth/Hazlehatch (electrification).

From your logic, the last two are just like the previous extensions of the Dart to Greystones and Malahide but both those were a long time ago. Look at how long the PPT and Grand Canal Dock are taking.

The most important project is the 5th one you left out, City centre resignalling.

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are four railway projects for Dublin. DU, MN, Dart ext to Airport, Dart ext to Manooth/Hazlehatch (electrification).

From your logic, the last two are just like the previous extensions of the Dart to Greystones and Malahide but both those were a long time ago. Look at how long the PPT and Grand Canal Dock are taking.

There are no railway projects for Dublin.

DU is dead in the water. MN is not far behind it. The DART EXT to Dublin airport is dead along with DU. As for extending the DART to Maynooth/Hazelhatch, we will still be talking about it in 10 years time. Apologies for being so negative, but Rail transport history in relation to the political set up needs to be studied more as it doesn't change.

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

The most important project is the 5th one you left out, City centre resignalling.

That is under way now - due for completion I believe this year. [The PPT and GCD are part of the resignalling project].

Grandeeod wrote: »

There are no railway projects for Dublin.

DU is dead in the water. MN is not far behind it. The DART EXT to Dublin airport is dead along with DU. As for extending the DART to Maynooth/Hazelhatch, we will still be talking about it in 10 years time. Apologies for being so negative, but Rail transport history in relation to the political set up needs to be studied more as it doesn't change.

Maybe they are all dead for now but they need to be resurrected. A new government may be the breath of life they need, however, I share your pessimism - who would believe that Irish Water is the most live political issue costing each household the maximum of €160 per year while hospital are over-run and the homeless abound.

However, County Councillors are looking for a pay rise and extra expenses.

salmocab

Sam Russell wrote: »

A new government may be the breath of life they need, however, I share your pessimism

not if the ridiculous rumors of healey rae getting a seat at cabinet are true, Dublin can wave goodbye to any infrastructure.

CatInABox

salmocab wrote: »

not if the ridiculous rumors of healey rae getting a seat at cabinet are true, Dublin can wave goodbye to any infrastructure.

It wouldn't be as bad if there was going to be a minister for urban affairs as well, with responsibility for developing Dublin, Cork and Galway. Not going to happen though.

Deedsie

salmocab wrote: »

not if the ridiculous rumors of healey rae getting a seat at cabinet are true, Dublin can wave goodbye to any infrastructure.

44 TD's are from Dublin, 7 from Kildare, 6 from Meath & 5 from Wicklow.. 62 TDs in the Dublin metropolitan area and you manage to blame a Kerry TD for blocking Infrastructure in the Dublin area. I think you should rethink the target of your annoyance.

liamog

Deedsie wrote: »

44 TD's are from Dublin, 7 from Kildare, 6 from Meath & 5 from Wicklow.. 62 TDs in the Dublin metropolitan area and you manage to blame a Kerry TD for blocking Infrastructure in the Dublin area. I think you should rethink the target of your annoyance.

It's not far off though, infrastructure in Dublin doesn't seem to generate votes in Dublin but it really seems to drive votes away in the country.
Amazing the amount of people who think Dublin gets all the money.

salmocab

Deedsie wrote: »

44 TD's are from Dublin, 7 from Kildare, 6 from Meath & 5 from Wicklow.. 62 TDs in the Dublin metropolitan area and you manage to blame a Kerry TD for blocking Infrastructure in the Dublin area. I think you should rethink the target of your annoyance.

Well thanks for that but I didn't suggest I was annoyed and I didn't blame anyone for blocking infrastructure. I was having a tongue in cheek jab at government possibly creating a position just to get 2 more TDs to vote with them.

Grandeeod

Deedsie wrote: »

44 TD's are from Dublin, 7 from Kildare, 6 from Meath & 5 from Wicklow.. 62 TDs in the Dublin metropolitan area and you manage to blame a Kerry TD for blocking Infrastructure in the Dublin area. I think you should rethink the target of your annoyance.

I've no comment to make on the Kerry TD. However it is well known that a lot of the 44 Dublin TDs have roots outside the city and weren't brought up there. This lack of understanding of Dublins transport problems can be related to a more rural mentality that they may have. Even with the Kildare, Meath and Wicklow TDs added, it still leaves 96 odd TDs who couldn't care less about public transport in the capital.

murphaph

And to top it all off we have silly parochialism even inside Dublin. Northside, Southside rubbish is still alive and well.

Idbatterim

the only things that are going to force these issues is gridlock effectively shutting the place down and the spineless politicians no longer having a choice. Because as long as they do, its going to be knocked back and back and back...

Deedsie

salmocab wrote: »

Well thanks for that but I didn't suggest I was annoyed and I didn't blame anyone for blocking infrastructure. I was having a tongue in cheek jab at government possibly creating a position just to get 2 more TDs to vote with them.

In the Infrastructure forum? "Ridiculous rumours" That reads as annoyed to me. I think a minister for rural affairs has been touted but I had not heard Michael Healy Rae mentioned as a possible Minister. Wholly sensible idea in my opinion, you could easily attach it to Gaeltacht affairs. Department of Art, Heritage, Gaeltacht & Rural affairs.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I've no comment to make on the Kerry TD. However it is well known that a lot of the 44 Dublin TDs have roots outside the city and weren't brought up there. This lack of understanding of Dublins transport problems can be related to a more rural mentality that they may have. Even with the Kildare, Meath and Wicklow TDs added, it still leaves 96 odd TDs who couldn't care less about public transport in the capital.

Rubbish, A Dublin TD is a Dublin TD. And if you truly believe that then blame the Dublin electorate for not being savvy in selecting who represents them.

Éamon Ó'Cuiv was born and reared in South Dublin, does that make him any less a Galway West TD.

murphaph

Éamon Ó'Cuiv was born and reared in South Dublin, does that make him any less a Galway West TD.

You've inadvertently proven Grandeeod's point!

LeinsterDub

liamog wrote: »

Amazing the amount of people who think Dublin gets all the money.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057571224/8/#post99043559
This thread shows alot of the "rural attitude" when it comes to Dublin infrastructure

Zebra3

Grandeeod wrote: »

I've no comment to make on the Kerry TD. However it is well known that a lot of the 44 Dublin TDs have roots outside the city and weren't brought up there. This lack of understanding of Dublins transport problems can be related to a more rural mentality that they may have. Even with the Kildare, Meath and Wicklow TDs added, it still leaves 96 odd TDs who couldn't care less about public transport in the capital.

How many TDs in the Greater Dublin Area have to actually use PT at rush hour to get to work?

They are as much out of touch with the realities of life in Dublin as rural TDs.

strassenwo!f

The State of Bavaria, in Germany, might be an appropriate example to follow, even though it is (in population terms) quite a bit bigger than Ireland, and it is certainly true that they had the 1972 Olympics and 1974 World Cup final as an impetus.

Nevertheless, although they expended a lot of money laying the groundwork for Munich's current fantastic transport system in the years leading up to the Olympics, and in the years afterwards, there is (as far as I know) no evidence that public tansport in other major Bavarian cities like Nuremberg or Augsburg suffered detrimentally in those years.

In later years, when the capital, Munich, was pretty much perfect in terms of public transport, the authorities turned increased attention, and funds, to Augsburg and Nuremberg, and the development of these cities continues apace.

(There are certainly problems. Nuremberg is, as has been the case for many years, developing sensibly, but earlier plans for an Augsburg S-Bahn seem to have stalled).

I think I've said it before, but a commitment by the powers that be, to (say) an annual 1 billion spend on public transport infrastructure - divided (iniially equally) between Dublin and the Regions, according to need - might be the way. Obviously after five or so years you might very well have started to run out of 'needed' projects in Cork, Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Waterford, etc, so a bigger slice would go to Dublin.

Seems sensible to me.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

You've inadvertently proven Grandeeod's point!

It has happened many times before! And with respect to Deedsie.

Its an issue alright.

markpb

Grandeeod wrote:

it still leaves 96 odd TDs who couldn't care less about public transport in the capital.

And, in some areas, denying investment in Dublin is a positive thing for those TDs.

Idbatterim

I read in todays irish times that hawkins house is going to be demolished and a new planning application is going in soon. The screen cinema there is also now closed. Would it make sense to construct a metro station here, its a stones throw from oconnell street. Also tara street station is on top of this site. Surely this could save a fortune, in terms of oconnell street being ripped open and all that would entail?

Edit, I meant to post that in Metro north thread. But on topic of DU, could a metro north and DU station be built here?

Khuitlio

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read in todays irish times that hawkins house is going to be demolished and a new planning application is going in soon. The screen cinema there is also now closed. Would it make sense to construct a metro station here, its a stones throw from oconnell street. Also tara street station is on top of this site. Surely this could save a fortune, in terms of oconnell street being ripped open and all that would entail?

Edit, I meant to post that in Metro north thread. But on topic of DU, could a metro north and DU station be built here?

I'd be a big supporter of the idea, it'd be an excellent site for an inter change station, right in the heart of the city, with major bus routes and soon the luas line also only a stones throw away.

I'd presume it'd also be much cheaper to construct the station boxes together and as part of another project without traffic disruptions etc.

Also by bringing the DU line to Tara Street, you'd presumably be shortening the length of the line, which is what they are trying to do now in order to save a few cents!

Potential for a station box under the Dublin Central site for MN also.

murphaph

Khuitlio wrote: »

Also by bringing the DU line to Tara Street, you'd presumably be shortening the length of the line, which is what they are trying to do now in order to save a few cents

I wouldn't presume anything of the sort. You're much closer to the river there, possibly extra costs due to groundwater etc. It's not a simple longer tunnel = more expensive. A TBM can chew threw Dublin clay fairly easily. The costs of a slightly longer route to an easy launch/extraction point like the Green will never be recouped along the shorter route if you have to build the station as a sub-basement of an office block.

At the end of the day, St. Stephen's green offered so many practical benefits and both DU and MN were still canned. The chances of either getting built under an office block are zero.

Idbatterim

murphaph wrote: »

I wouldn't presume anything of the sort. You're much closer to the river there, possibly extra costs due to groundwater etc. It's not a simple longer tunnel = more expensive. A TBM can chew threw Dublin clay fairly easily. The costs of a slightly longer route to an easy launch/extraction point like the Green will never be recouped along the shorter route if you have to build the station as a sub-basement of an office block.

At the end of the day, St. Stephen's green offered so many practical benefits and both DU and MN were still canned. The chances of either getting built under an office block are zero.

the state own the office block though. Sure wasn't a station box for MN built at the mater?