An Bord Snip Nua Report - Cut In Garda Pay Allowances Suggested

cushtac

irishgrover wrote: »

By the way I am the only breadwinner in my house (wife made redundant and 4 kids 6 and under). The government has already taken significant nibbles from my paycheck, in addition to the 15% pay cut this year. In addition I live in Galway but have been moved by my employer to Dublin for the foreseeable future, as there is no work in Galway. I guess I could take a sick day to protest, but I wouldn't get paid unless I got a doc's note! Ah, the hassles of living in the real world :rolleyes:

This week I've had to deal with a horrific case of domestic abuse and had to watch a grown man collapse in tears after being told a family member had died, so don't start getting on your high horse about 'the real world'.

Hooch

cushtac wrote: »

This week I've had to deal with a horrific case of domestic abuse and had to watch a grown man collapse in tears after being told a family member had died, so don't start getting on your high horse about 'the real world'.

Quiet week so cushtac!

If only they knew the truth. AGS should start ride alongs.......

jake59

cushtac wrote: »

This week I've had to deal with a horrific case of domestic abuse and had to watch a grown man collapse in tears after being told a family member had died, so don't start getting on your high horse about 'the real world'.

try doing cpr on a 13 month old who has just been found not breathing by their parents, and after going through all your protocols and getting that baby to hospital asap and staying there helping as much as you can and willing that baby to breath again ... he passes... everybody involve feels so ****ing helpless.... daily occurrences... felt very real to me , to the nurses , the doctors... the parents...
the real world isn't working 9-5 getting home to your soaps then off to bed to start all over again the next day and looking forward to your weekends over and over agian til you die.. the real world is out there dealing with the crap that some people think just happens on The Bill and Casualty.
People are gonna get a wake up call soon when the things they take for granted are not there any more.

sickpuppy32

can i just ask that everone reads the report please before passing comment its on the dept of finance website and its actually an easy read.

by the way we all experience " the real world" as someone putit, not just the emergency services, some of us are firefighters, some paramedics, some gardai, some of us are single parents, some of us design medicines, some of us cope with a loved one dying in front of our eyes, we're all experienceing the real world , we're just having different experiences

irishgrover

cushtac wrote: »

This week I've had to deal with a horrific case of domestic abuse and had to watch a grown man collapse in tears after being told a family member had died, so don't start getting on your high horse about 'the real world'.

if you read my posts you would see that my comments were very specifically related to members suggesting that industrial action aka blue flue was the way to progress. Regardless of anything else, if is my strong personal believe that members should not strike, and that is all that the blue flu is, a strike, hiding behind lies of falsified illness.

DubMedic wrote: »

.....By the way, if you were the only breadwinner in your house and the government decided to nibble on your paycheck and send you to work much further away than usual then I think you would be slightly miffed too.
.

irishgrover wrote: »

again, it's just my opinion, members know that they cannot take industrial action, for obvious reasons of public and national security, it's what they signed up to and it's the law, ...

By the way I am the only breadwinner in my house (wife made redundant and 4 kids 6 and under). The government has already taken significant nibbles from my paycheck, in addition to the 15% pay cut this year. In addition I live in Galway but have been moved by my employer to Dublin for the foreseeable future, as there is no work in Galway. I guess I could take a sick day to protest, but I wouldn't get paid unless I got a doc's note! Ah, the hassles of living in the real world :rolleyes:

DubMedic give a hypothetical example of hardships relating to being a sole breadwinner and having to re-locate for work reasons, as if this is reason enough to have a dose of blue flue, which again in my opinion is bollix. I gave my personal situation as an example that this happens every day in the 'real world' or private sector or whatever you want to call it. I was talking about purely economic realities of where the country currently is economically.

cushtac wrote: »

This week I've had to deal with a horrific case of domestic abuse and had to watch a grown man collapse in tears after being told a family member had died, so don't start getting on your high horse about 'the real world'.

I have no reason to believe you are doing anything other than a great job in difficult circumstances. I (genuinely) have nothing but respect for all members of the emergency services.

Your response albeit clever and emotive is none the less completely irrelevant to the points that I was making. We as a country (regardless of fault) are living beyond our means on borrowed times and borrowed money, big cuts to all sectors or the economy, public and private are here to stay for the foreseeable future. I don't sit on a high horse but I do live in the real economic world, one where the private sector has already been battered and the public sector is about to be battered.
Domestic abuse and Death, whilst no doubt extremely difficult to deal with has **** all to do with An Board Snip nua, possible reductions in Garda allowances and pay, and members of the Gardai breaking the law / using industrial action.

DCTF

irishgrover wrote: »

again, it's just my opinion, members know that they cannot take industrial action, for obvious reasons of public and national security, it's what they signed up to and it's the law, ...

By the way I am the only breadwinner in my house (wife made redundant and 4 kids 6 and under). The government has already taken significant nibbles from my paycheck, in addition to the 15% pay cut this year. In addition I live in Galway but have been moved by my employer to Dublin for the foreseeable future, as there is no work in Galway. I guess I could take a sick day to protest, but I wouldn't get paid unless I got a doc's note! Ah, the hassles of living in the real world :rolleyes:

Eh try a mortgage for 390k in Dublin, house prices dropped. Other half is working in the public service in a governmental agency and has lost a large chunk of her wages due to the pension levy is being let go at the end of the month due to the ban on recruitment meaning her contract can't be renewed even thought the agency is very busy and her position is required. have a 4 year old whose in creche since 4 months costing €890 a month. working in dublin 24/7/365. have to deal with people trying to assault me, spit on me etc. have to deal with fatal rta's etc. We too can be moved around due to the requirements of the force. When did your customer at work try to bite you or spit in your face, or have you had to go to peoples houses and enter them when there's an intruder in there. We all have jobs to do but the least we can do is respect the role of those who rush to our aid at our time of need. At the end of the day who do you call when you need help? Were already the only eu police force to have our pay cut, the removal of the allowances would cost about 6-8k a year depending on your role.

Social welfare should be cut to be at a level consistent with that of other eu nations. People in reciept should have to sign on weekly not that big an ask if your not out working! Issue a social welfare card with fingerprints / biometric data stored on it to stop benefit fraud, random checks by the social welfare at signing on stations to ensure cards are in the possession of the rightfull owner. compare the list below between the uk and ireland.

Unemployment benefit
UK = €69.75, Ireland = €204.00

Childrens Allowance
UK = €23 / week 1st child, €15 a week subsequent children
Ireland = €39 per week first & second children, €46 / week subsequent children.

Pensions
UK = €105 / week contributary pension
Ireland = €219 / week pension.

Cut free legal aid to one payment per case! Not every appearance for stupid stuff like Gary Doyle orders.

Prisoners should work daily, I was in the US went to a playground, up pulled the Depatment of Corrections bus with the prisoners in their overalls with an armed guard. the prisoners picked up litter, leaves and washed the playground equipment. Asked the guard how the system worked said their all normal prisoners the only one's not on the programme are violent, murder, rape offenders. Getting value for money there, same with the rubbish along the motorways and stuff chain gangs from prison. why should they have the life of reilly playing playstations and watching tv.

irishgrover

again, as per previous post, my comments were a direct reponse to a hypothetic situation as described by DubMedic.
I am under no illusions that everyone is hurting.
I'm not suggesting that it's a public V private sector thing.

My only comment is that I am 100% opposed to the idea of Blue Flu

cushtac

irishgrover wrote: »

Your response albeit clever and emotive is none the less completely irrelevant to the points that I was making. We as a country (regardless of fault) are living beyond our means on borrowed times and borrowed money, big cuts to all sectors or the economy, public and private are here to stay for the foreseeable future. I don't sit on a high horse but I do live in the real economic world, one where the private sector has already been battered and the public sector is about to be battered.
Domestic abuse and Death, whilst no doubt extremely difficult to deal with has **** all to do with An Board Snip nua, possible reductions in Garda allowances and pay, and members of the Gardai breaking the law / using industrial action.

There's nothing clever about it, it's fact. We all live in the real economic world and it's not just private sector workers who face economic difficulty, there's plenty of Gardaí, Fire fighters & EMTs already facing financial problems. Any action that might be taken would not be entered into lightly, if it was as simple a decision to make as you seem to think it is then it would have been done more than once.

Domestic abuse & death do have something to do with it, as it's what the emergency services have to deal with on daily basis. They are now being told that they are paid too much, in effect that their time & lives aren't worth what is being paid to them. The job is getting worse, the emergency services are under ever increasing stress and now they are expected to deal with this with less money & manpower.

ES workers are people too, and as people they have a breaking point.

Terrontress

I think Irish Grover has a point.

Let's be honest, no amount of money could compensate for some of the work that Gardai are expected to do and keep a smile on their face.

Some people never get over in a lifetime what Gardai go through in a single day. But that is what the job entails. There are people who go to work in the sewers and get covered in human waste daily. It's their job.

The issue is that Gardai have not been remunerated properly for years. Instead of a fair day's pay for a fair day's work there has been a system of allowances propping up a below market wage and that has been a real risk. The GRA should have sorted it out long in advance.

People have signed up to the guards in full knowledge of this. Taken out mortgages knowing that their base income does not allow enough to pay for the monthly repayment as well as their other expenses.

There are dozens of other occupations out there where this is the same at present. Overtime being cut, expenses being reigned in, commission cut, bonus cancelled. And people have relied on these payments just to get by. Gardai are not living lavish lifestyles on their expenses and allowances.

In spite of all this, there is a reason why Garda industrial action is illegal. And it will not garner any public sympathy in light of what I have said above. Blue flu is seen as a cop out. People not prepared to stand up for what they believe in and phoning in sick. Taking advantage of sick leave. It won't get sympathy at all. Especially given Garda sick leave benefits are better than what a lot of other people are getting.

Hopefully we will learn from the current situation and when the economy gets better, it will be ensured that Gardai have a basic wage on which they can live.

parsi

A BlueFlu will be pointless.

Tugging on emotive strings will be pointless.

The sympathy isn't out there. The Indo will whip itself into a frenzy and remind folk about pensions, boot allowance and the like. They'll point out that plenty of other folk deal with death and misery as part of their job. They might even make up a few things.

FGR

It's a matter for the representative associations of each organisation to work with the Government on coming towards some sort of agreement in relation to these proposals.

I think a lot of members are disgruntled that not only are we going to receive less pay - but that we'll be working with less resources. Resources that are already stretched as it is. Even during the good times.

I don't know. It varies from person to person. But needless to say I've purposely been trying to save as much as possible to try and cushion whatever bombshell is coming our way.

coach23

to all who've suggested blue flu and who are serving or retired members of AGS, and to those who are opposed to the idea, No one wants to strike we all took the job becasue its what we want ot work at its our way of contributing to society weather we are valued or not we're not here for medals commendations or daily plaudits from the public or media, ALL WE WANT is a continuance of what we've been getting paid for the ridiculous amount of work ridicuolous type of work and work conditions we have to put up with we dont want extra we just want the same is that too unreasonable? we were given mortgages based on allowances and overtime something the banks say they dont do....now when the state takes those allowances and overtime becasue they have to prop up the banks and I default on my mortgage for gardai thats a CRIMINAL OFFENCE and i can be fined or disciplined or fired no toehr job in the country has that hanging over them, when i would like to protest at such discriminatory laws (singled out because of my profession) and join a union i cant it's illegal for a garda to be in a trade union, when i would like to strike or organise a strike the GArda Siochana Act 2005 makes it an arrestable offence to do so, for civillians thats means a prison term of 5 years or more. you might be in the private sector but you enjoy more freedoms in your life than i do because i choose to work in a job that protects you and indeed protects the people who try to harm you more than you OR I. how do you feel about it now?

Sorry for the spelling!

parsi

parsi wrote: »

A BlueFlu will be pointless.

Tugging on emotive strings will be pointless.

The sympathy isn't out there. The Indo will whip itself into a frenzy and remind folk about pensions, boot allowance and the like. They'll point out that plenty of other folk deal with death and misery as part of their job. They might even make up a few things.

The sympathy isnt out there but more importantly the money isnt there. We are minus 20 billion every year and thats before we put money into NAMA.
People who have lost their jobs or are struggling with mortgages payments because of paycuts are going to let things slide like their car tax or tv licences but the state wont let them off with that and neither will alot of Gardai.

Any Garda going to tell me that if they are left on a higher pay scale they will ignore people driving around with tax gone out 6 months or more?
The Gardai also look bad when they arrive at Anglo Irish Bank HQ six months late. Its all so political, people hate that especially when its costing them their careers, businesses and homes. Take a second to clear your head and look at it from different perspectives!

I reckon cuts will be made and people will be summonsed. :pac:

coach23

coach23 wrote: »

we were given mortgages based on allowances and overtime something the banks say they dont do....now when the state takes those allowances and overtime becasue they have to prop up the banks and I default on my mortgage for gardai thats a CRIMINAL OFFENCE

Criminal offence or stupid Gardai disciplinary offence which gets you sacked.
Its a civil court where you go for bankruptcies.

Gardai getting sacked for going bankrupt is an internal rule which should be changed but changing that is a matter for AGS

kwalsh000

Not trying to be smart here, but just going to throw it out there. People saying we should take the cuts and be happy to still have a job because the country needs the money etc.

How about a blitz of fines for out of date tax on cars on public roads, detaining all cars that need to be detained, fines for every little offence. No more chances etc. It would bring in alot of money but I suppose no one would be happy with that.

The point I am trying to make to those who say we are living beyond our means and these cuts are needed, how would you feel if the Gardai were turned into a money making racket? You would not be happy at all. Just as we are not happy to be part of the ones on the chopping block who they are using to try save money (while lining their own pockets) when there are many middle management postions taking up too much expenses.

kwalsh000

kwalsh000 wrote: »

Not trying to be smart here, but just going to throw it out there. People saying we should take the cuts and be happy to still have a job because the country needs the money etc.

How about a blitz of fines for out of date tax on cars on public roads, detaining all cars that need to be detained, fines for every little offence. No more chances etc. It would bring in alot of money but I suppose no one would be happy with that.

The point I am trying to make to those who say we are living beyond our means and these cuts are needed, how would you feel if the Gardai were turned into a money making racket? You would not be happy at all. Just as we are not happy to be part of the ones on the chopping block who they are using to try save money (while lining their own pockets) when there are many middle management postions taking up too much expenses.

The Gardai first and foremost are to protect life and property. It doesnt say the Garda mission is for each Garda to aim to have 30 summons a month.

Im not saying Gardai should be fine with cuts, a hell of alot needs to change with regard to working conditions! This has always been the case though irrespective of pay increases or decreases. But everyone plays along with management including the GRA I might add. They tried to start a different representative organisation more than 10 years ago - the Garda federation. There may be some old copies of magazines with more information about it hanging around some stations. Going a bit off topic now!!

Back on topic the Gardai should never be out playing glorified tax collector. That nonsense is gone on in the days of computers. Why isnt it put on the price of fuel? Wasting Garda resources. I hate nothing more than seeing Garda after Garda striking out summons for RTA crap. Its become the norm and no one sees anything wrong with it and your comments about how would people like it if the Gardai went all out on this is a reflection of this attitude.

This is alienating us from decent people in the communities we are supposed to work for. A blue flu when tens of thousands of people just lost their jobs would be a slap in their faces too.

Sierra Oscar

Indeed, a Blue Flu would do nothing to help the situation - afterall the entire public sector is at risk in todays economic climate.

dfbemt

One of the points I looked at with fear in the report, that nobody has yet mentioned, is the elimination of weekend allowances, etc.

Look at the bottom of page 134 of volume 2.

I know they are specifically talking about HSE staff here but do no think for 1 minute that this would not expand to other public sector workers on shift. They have clearly identified working a 5 day roster on a 7 day basis and we received the 1/6th payment on the same basis back in 1999.

The impact of this would be even more severe than the levies we have already seen !!

jonsnow

Mr Jinx wrote: »

when most people, even civil servants apply for a job, they know or can chose the location of the job. This is not the case for Gardai, prison officers and the like. They can be placed miles from home,

Newsflash.Many people who want to work in a job they,re interested in have to move away from home.The new area they,re working in then becomes their home.This decision is not subsidised by the taxpayer for the rest of their life.

timmywex

jonsnow wrote: »

Newsflash.Many people who want to work in a job they,re interested in have to move away from home.The new area they,re working in then becomes their home.This decision is not subsidised by the taxpayer for the rest of their life.

Same people get to decide where they want to work when applying for the job. Garda management decide where you get based.

Same people will work in the same place more than likely if promoted. I know of a guard promoted that was transferred from wexford to donegal on promotion(extreme example i know). Not his choice, but he has to go and wait for a transfer back. Thats what rent allowance is about.

Wheely

timmywex wrote: »

Same people get to decide where they want to work when applying for the job. Garda management decide where you get based.

Same people will work in the same place more than likely if promoted. I know of a guard promoted that was transferred from wexford to donegal on promotion(extreme example i know). Not his choice, but he has to go and wait for a transfer back. Thats what rent allowance is about.

Sorry I'm not seeing what your point is here. I think the point the previous poster was making is that those people DON'T get to "decide where they want to work when applying for a job", they go where the work is and their change in location is not subsidised by the taxpayer for the rest of their lives. I know that might sound repetitive but I can't help feeling you just completely ignored jonsnows post there and made a blindly unsupported statement.

It can also happen in the private sector that managemment makes decisions re relocation without a lifetime rent allowance to go along with it!

mountainyman

kwalsh000 wrote: »

How about a blitz of fines for out of date tax on cars on public roads, detaining all cars that need to be detained, fines for every little offence. No more chances etc. It would bring in alot of money but I suppose no one would be happy with that.

GENIUS IDEA. Gardai on Aylesbury road, Vico Road and outside the dail watching like hawks.

Genius.

Terrontress

Wheely wrote: »

Sorry I'm not seeing what your point is here. I think the point the previous poster was making is that those people DON'T get to "decide where they want to work when applying for a job", they go where the work is and their change in location is not subsidised by the taxpayer for the rest of their lives. I know that might sound repetitive but I can't help feeling you just completely ignored jonsnows post there and made a blindly unsupported statement.

It can also happen in the private sector that managemment makes decisions re relocation without a lifetime rent allowance to go along with it!

I applied to join AIB Group and was given no choice where I wanted to work. I was sent to Dublin, given the cost of a B&B for one month and got nothing more beyond that. It is in my contract that I can be moved anywhere at any time and they will pay €500 and no more for that. I have been moved twice in 9 years.

There are no allowances for living in Dublin and theoretically they could send you outside of Ireland if they so chose.

Gardai have had it good to this point.

Paulzx

Terrontress wrote: »

It is in my contract that I can be moved anywhere at any time and they will pay €500 and no more for that. .

Same as its in a member of the gardai's contract that he receives rent allowance. If its fair to honour your contract its fair to honour a garda one. The fact you disagree with someone elses contract is not in itself a valid reason to for it to be broken

Tango Alpha 51

Have to agree with Paulz on this one. If my contract says xyz, then it should be honoured. Same as Paul has one with the organisation he works for, same as any member of AGS or any individual working for a private company.

bo-bo

it makes me angry at those looking in and pontificating about how emergency service workers should be paid this that or the other.

a few points id like to raise:

- the fact of the matter is that we are not renumerated enough in an overall context. i earn a very average wage by private sector standards before allowances and tax. for that paltry sum ive been assaulted numerous times, had numerous injuries and had myself and my family threatened.

- o/t is a moot point now as there is none there anymore but if there was i would have earned it - its not money for nothing as some people seem to think.

- i chose to be a garda and i made that decision based on the benefits/package/renumeration on offer. why should i and my colleagues be demonised for trying to hang on to what we've got.

- its been put to us that if were not happy walk away. there are plenty of people in the private sector who would love our job. i would love for anyone in the private sector to have a go at my job and see how long they would last.

Of course our wages should be decreased. It's not like we do any worthwhile work.

petergfiffin

Reading through this thread (and others I've seen) just confirms my belief that the government have been engaged in a plan to "divide and conquer" by setting the private sector against the public sector to fight amongst themselves while taking the heat off the government.

The government look at the public sector and with plenty of "tut tutting" giving out about how overpaid they are when they were the ones who signed off on the payrises!!! As we all know our expenses rise to meet our income so it's a very bitter pill to swallow to ask somebody to take a pay-cut as it can cause very real hardship, I think it's even worse to ask this of people who genuinely do an otherwise thankless job (I'm private sector btw)

The people I have the real problems with in all this is the unions who have always focused on more money, more money and don't seem to have done anything to improve working conditions or equipment. I definitely think though that any "Blue Flu" type exercise can expect to receive a serious backlash from the public

bo-bo

bo-bo wrote: »

it makes me angry at those looking in and pontificating about how emergency service workers should be paid this that or the other.

a few points id like to raise:

- the fact of the matter is that we are not renumerated enough in an overall context. i earn a very average wage by private sector standards before allowances and tax. for that paltry sum ive been assaulted numerous times, had numerous injuries and had myself and my family threatened.

- o/t is a moot point now as there is none there anymore but if there was i would have earned it - its not money for nothing as some people seem to think.

- i chose to be a garda and i made that decision based on the benefits/package/renumeration on offer. why should i and my colleagues be demonised for trying to hang on to what we've got.

- its been put to us that if were not happy walk away. there are plenty of people in the private sector who would love our job. i would love for anyone in the private sector to have a go at my job and see how long they would last.

This isnt about what people deserve unfortunately its about what the state can afford and borrowing 400 million a week just isnt going to work out.
Im glad someone else mentions the divide and conquer tactic by the govt.

Wait until they push through NAMA while we are bitchin about pay cuts etc.
The govt can find the money to pay off the banks

Terrontress

I think the amount of expenses paid to Gardai is, and has been, ridiculous.

For a group of people providing essential services they should be paid a proper wage and that wage should be pensionable.

At least if everyone had been given a fair wage for the job they are doing and expenses had been minimal then there would be nothing to remove.

Shift allowances, rent allowances etc etc. All nonsense. Give a wage which fairly represents the work put in. Goes on the payslip as salary. That way if future governments try to take money out of your pocket it will be seen as what it is. A pay cut.