An Bord Snip Nua Report - Cut In Garda Pay Allowances Suggested

Sierra Oscar

The An Bord Snip Nua report will be released today. Currently, it looks like a cut of €50 million in Garda pay allowances will be suggested. The axing of 20,000 public service jobs is also suggested.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/doublepay-welfare-to-be-cut-in-836415bn-blitz-1824488.html

We will know more when the report is published later on today.

kerry4sam

according to http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-warns-against-kneejerk-reactions-1824527.html Minister Lenihan warns against knee-jerk reactions by special interest groups who want to "protect their own patch" to the report which is due to be published today at 2pm.

All of the cost-cutting options in the report will be considered by the Government, although some may be ruled out in the run up to December's budget.

1922

to be honest if cuts are to be made anywhere in the public sector i think the hSE should be targetted. not nurses and frontline services but these mysterious "middle management" positions

the types that have meetings to plan meetings to justify thier positions

lets be honest, there are alot of bullsh1t positions in alot of the public sector.

gilly0512

1922 wrote: »

to be honest if cuts are to be made anywhere in the public sector i think the hSE should be targetted. not nurses and frontline services but these mysterious "middle management" positions

the types that have meetings to plan meetings to justify thier positions

lets be honest, there are alot of bullsh1t positions in alot of the public sector.

I agree plus what about consultants on €260,000 a year for just their public work is scandalous while their equivalent in the UK gets €130,000 and in Germany €83,000. Why is it in this country that we feel that across the board the middle to upper levels of the public sector should be paid far more than in nearly every other country, with the HSE a shining example of this wanton wasteage.

FGR

There'll be war in the DMR if the rent allowance is touched.

A lot of house owners up there are almost crippled as it is since the cut in OT.

kerry4sam

I took a quick look http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/economy1.html and I'm honestly worried and completely gobsmacked here!

kerry4sam

Here it is ... all 84 pages

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%201.pdf


detailed papers

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf

kerry4sam

Table 3.13.2 Justice savings measures

Annual savings identified

Programme A – Community Security, Law Enforcement, Crime prevention by
support for An Garda Síochána

A.1. Reduce incidental expenses and utility costs €2.1m
A.2. Slow down replacement of Garda vehicle fleet €2.0m
A.3. Better co-ordination to reduce time spend by Gardaí in Court €0.1m
A.4. Rationalise the Garda station network €1.0m
A.5. Shelve new urban CCTV placements €5.0m
A.6 Transfer responsibility of immigration control at entry point to INIS €1.0m
A.7. Review of Garda pay and allowances €50.0m
A.8. Reduce the non-pay baseline of civil service offices under this Programme €2.0m
Programme A savings €63.2m

Programme B – The maintenance of safe and secure custody for offenders by
support for the Prisons Service

B.1. Reduce utility costs €0.5m
B.2. Generation of pay efficiencies €15.0m
Programme B savings €15.5m

Programme C - Management of the Courts and supporting the Judiciary

C.1 Reduce the numbers of County Registrars €2.0m
C.2 Rationalise the District and Circuit court network €2.0m
C.3 The Tipstaffs grade should be abolished €2.5m
C.4 Reduce surplus security personnel at the Four Courts €2.0m
C.5 Review charging system for civil and commercial courts €5.0m
C.6 Reduce the non-pay baseline of civil service offices under this Programme €1.3m
C.7 Introduce a limited means testing system for criminal legal aid €8.4m
Programme C savings €23.2m

Programme D - The promotion of a safe society through the provision of a
wide range of Justice services

D.1. Amalgamate Data Protection Commissioner into an Ombudsman Commission €0.2m
D.2. Improve value for money in the Coroners Service €0.2m
D.3. Graffiti removal operations to be part of Community Service Orders €1.0m
D.4. Merge the Property Services Regulatory Authority with the Private Residential
Tenancies Board
€0.5m
D.5. Transfer the functions of IFCO into BAI €0.5m
D.6. Reduce the non-pay baseline of civil service offices under this Programme €0.4m

ScubaDave

The PSNI starting to look good to anyone!?

FGR

When you consider that most of us have taken a 10% hit (Pension Levy/Income Levy/PRSI Increase) it's amazing that they have little to no difficulty in wanting to hit us again.

Don't get me wrong. I understand that savings have to be made; but on the global scale of things shouldn't they be focusing on cutting out the fat in middle management/admin? The current proposal, together with Garda members more than likely being used to fulfill office duties; means we'll be back to 2000 levels of manpower as well as pay.

What 'equivalent' private bodies are the Emergency Services compared to anyway?

jake59

ForegoneReality wrote: »

means we'll be back to 2000 levels of manpower as well as pay.

Yeah but with 2009 levels of crime and work. How is this going to effect most members morale wise taking into account the huge numbers who are going to be doubly hit again because their partner is in the public service. there seems to be a view in the private sector that we should just roll over and take the paycuts and feel their pain.. well excuse me but at the moment i am down 500euro a month from this time last year and what with my wife being a member on the same scale thats 1000euro a month we are missing from our household... i think thats plenty of pain thanks very much. why bother? you'd be better off sponging off the state getting your council house and drawing the dole. at least you'd have no mortgage and ye wouldn't have to worry about paying for petrol to go to work.. the feckin' scrotes had the right idea all along...............

Hooch

I feel a flu comming on......a blue one

timmywex

Ah slow down garda fleet replacement?! Isnt it effectively stoppped and when it does start there's going to be so many heaps of crap needing replacement there wont be any chance to slow it down.

They want ot close half the garda stations, what an ill thought out idea, where exactly are these gardai going to be based afterwards?! In the already cramped district stations!? Phew, having a laugh!! And aswell, its not very thought through at all, exact wording is below, it strikes me as if someone saw that there were 703 stations and thought the number was high, so about half that should be ok! No, the number of half wasnt based on anything like operational policing needs or location or staff numbers or anything, simply that the number looked big, if thats all our best economists work off well i think thats me off to jamaca or somewhere, maybe they have sense over there

Bord Snip Report wrote:

The number of Garda stations is very high at 703, and many of them are in need of extensive
refurbishment. We recommend that the Garda station network be reduced by around half, and that
it should be a function of the Garda Commissioner (rather than the Minister for Justice, Equality &
Law Reform) to decide which stations should be maintained based on operational grounds

the locust

A very depressing read... God help our country! Who writes this stuff?! (+1 about the rent allowance! grrr!!)

blondie7

why should gaurds and prison officers recieve rent allowance and not civil servants?? esp when they own a house??

Alpha Papa

kerry4sam wrote: »

Table 3.13.2 Justice savings measures

Annual savings identified

Programme A – Community Security, Law Enforcement, Crime prevention by
support for An Garda Síochána

A.6 Transfer responsibility of immigration control at entry point to INIS €1.0m

Looks like civilians would be taking over then would that be right?

bacon bites

whats the point in working anymore?! driving around at 4 in the morning in sh1tboxes that won't be replaced for no allowances? Work to rule is the only way to go. If you are due to finish at 10, down tools at 10. Don't bother going to non garda relevant calls even if called in on 999. Don't attend court if all the notification you get is a phone call the day before as happens alot. I'm not going to be made feel responsible for the hole the country is in, and neither should any decent, hardworking frontline civil servant. Various departmental managers should be made accountable for all the money spunked away in the good times, including garda mgnt. Crappy cars, stations, equipment, radios and procedures. Any mention of the OPW and all the money they wasted btw?

jake59

bacon bites wrote: »

Any mention of the OPW and all the money they wasted btw?

I think I saw OPW reports this year where they spent something like 16k to put a shower into a station.... eh wtf is that all about?

Sierra Oscar

bacon bites wrote: »

whats the point in working anymore?!

Indeed. I don't know how many times I have heard people say they would nearly be better off on the doll the way things are going (not Gardai in particular, people in general.)

kaizersoze

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Indeed. I don't know how many times I have heard people say they would nearly be better off on the doll the way things are going (not Gardai in particular, people in general.)

I bet they would.:D:p

The way the social welfare system is now, thats very true. Not for much longer though if they cut into it as the report suggests.

Mr Jinx

blondie7 wrote: »

why should gaurds and prison officers recieve rent allowance and not civil servants?? esp when they own a house??

when most people, even civil servants apply for a job, they know or can chose the location of the job. This is not the case for Gardai, prison officers and the like. They can be placed miles from home,

AlekSmart

D.2. Improve value for money in the Coroners Service €0.2m
D.3. Graffiti removal operations to be part of Community Service Orders €1.0m

A VFM analysis of the Coroners Service producing a "saving" of €0.2m added to an equally exhaustive study showing a saving of €1 MILLION if the gougers are made clean up their own filth..?

Am I missing out on something here ?

I do tend to bang on about it here,but I am rapidly deepening in my conviction that a rather stronger response is deserved by these "Public Representatives" who commission works such as the Expenditure Review Committee report.

Thus far all that the "Ordinary Working Class" individual has recieved from the Cowen/Lenihan gang is little short of sneering contempt.

Mr Cowen may well believe that writing whatever "cheques are necessary" to support and maintain the rotting corpses of a series of crony bankers is evidence of his zeal and committment.

I believe that we are seriously in need of some CAB activity within and around several Ministerial Offices in Government Buildings with a pressing need to focus on any and all items of Public Expenditure incurred on the sidelines of the relevant departments.

The Gentleman standing outside the Bank of Ireland on College Green today had the right idea with his placard.

It made the rather simplistic yet relevant comparison between the USA`s handling of Bernard Madoff and other Fiscal Frauds and our native understanding and affinity for the same breed......

DubMedic

kerry4sam wrote: »

Programme A – Community Security, Law Enforcement, Crime prevention by
support for An Garda Síochána

A.2. Slow down replacement of Garda vehicle fleet €2.0m
A.5. Shelve new urban CCTV placements €5.0m
A.7. Review of Garda pay and allowances €50.0m

D.2. Improve value for money in the Coroners Service €0.2m

Just a few thoughts.

A.2 = It might actually help if there was an efficient,modern fleet in the first place.

A.5 = Promote Anti-Social behavior and lack of evidence in case of anti-social behavior.

A.7 = Remove all necessary pay, I mean come on emergency service workers would do the job for free if asked.

D.2 = Sounds like an advert for Dunnes Stores or something.

.

FGR

DubMedic wrote: »

D.2 = Sounds like an advert for Dunnes Stores or something.

.

The difference is we're Irish

deputydugs

nice guy always wrote: »

I feel a flu comming on......a blue one

I agree and have said ot to my GRA rep and was told thats a last option . Yeah right! :pac:

I asked around and no members want to have a BLUE FLU and when the levy hit just took it! I mean Fu ck me! :mad:

As the we had a protest Junior members from all around the isle did not turn up! Why? ......Not that if they had it would have done much for us.

BLUE FLU is the way and the only way, we have talked and talked and are being ignored. Its time to stand up and take action. Call a BLUE FLU and make it each week if need be. The public think we deserve all we get and YES this is true. They pay our wages. Well I pay it too
Only our family's support us and the rest of the public care not :mad:

We will be hit again and once more by March next year.
Rent allowance will be dropped to around 56 Euro,
A pay cut will hit all ranks by at least 40 euro.
Rural stations without a car will we shot down followed by ones that need a new car.
New cars will be a rare sight.
New uniforms will be dropped to once a year.
Tetra will roll out and soon be out-dated, unkept and will just turn into a poor state phone.
Our staions as Bad as they are will go into ruins for the next 15 - 20 years. New training will not start for another 3 years with numbers going high for 2 more after that before returning to normal.

WATCH A PENSION CUT HAPPEN, FORGET HAVING A GOOD PENSION, TAKE AGTION, CONTACT YOUR GRA REP IN WRITING AND MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD

---

WACTH THIS SPACE

---

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/careers.htm now I NEVER thought it would sound so good, Maybe Down under , Whats keeping us here? We wanted to be Gardai !

deputydugs

blondie7 wrote: »

why should gaurds and prison officers recieve rent allowance and not civil servants?? esp when they own a house??

becasue you can get close to your home , No need to move to Dublin or Kenmare when your from Galway.

sickpuppy32

deputydugs wrote: »

becasue you can get close to your home , No need to move to Dublin or Kenmare when your from Galway.

private sector doesn''t get rent allowance FFS!

deputydugs

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

private sector doesn''t get rent allowance FFS!

Then you should have applied for the Gardai or another public sector job. Your options were open since 18 years of age. Fight your corner.

WHY DONT YOU GET RENT ALLOWANCE?

I've been to College. Have my degree and went with what I wanted to do and took a large pay cut for it! So a story of I went for a job when times were good wont cut, 1980's here we come again

"All is fair in love and war"

Thats what the Govermnet wants you to know

sickpuppy32

deputydugs wrote: »

Then you should have applied for they Gardai or another public sector job. Your options were open since 18 years of age. Fight your corner.

sorry i had too much self respect to do that:cool::D

jake59

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

sorry i had too much self respect to do that:cool::D

Rather that you were too selfish to even consider a job where you might have to help someone rather than just thinking of making money and yet when it goes all tits up in the private sector it must be the fault of the workers in the public sector who are out on the frontline every day and night trying to make a difference to people's lives and to this society. ah feck it lets just let crime run rampant, people die at home with no hope of help and society generally fail because we have no public administration. but once you're making money well ..... its all good .. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

jason99

Well said jake59. Everyone had a choice.The recruitment competitions were open to everyone.Fair play to anyone who works in front line emergency services.Who do we call when we need help........"some people seem to forget that"

brown bear

Blue Flu as a one off day is a pointless exercise, it will have to be properly organised and it will have to be day on day off or else it won't work, but with the spineless, useless and pointless GRA its never gonna happen

Shield

deputydugs wrote: »

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/careers.htm now I NEVER thought it would sound so good

I know 4 ex-mules who signed up and they said it was the best decision of their lives. Be warned though, I was recently contacted by 2 serving Gardai who didn't even get past the Initial Selection Test, so it might not be as easy as you think to get in.

I'm from Dublin myself, and when I read this Report, I smiled on the inside, and thanked my lucky stars I made the decision to move up here when I did.

You guys are in it deep down there.

shakin

there was a lot of talk on george hook yesterday about garda pensions and saying that a garda can retire at 50, but am i right in saying that you must serve 30 years in order to get a full pension, so unless you join at 19 then can you only get full pension? and also was there ever an aspect of garda pay that was danger money? didnt civil servants and army get it when working on the border?(open to correction)

DubMedic

shakin wrote: »

there was a lot of talk on george hook yesterday about garda pensions and saying that a garda can retire at 50, but am i right in saying that you must serve 30 years in order to get a full pension, so unless you join at 19 then can you only get full pension? and also was there ever an aspect of garda pay that was danger money? didnt civil servants and army get it when working on the border?(open to correction)

The 'Troubles' are over. Maybe if someone on here is stationed in Blayney they might be able to fill you in.

.

shakin

DubMedic wrote: »

The 'Troubles' are over. Maybe if someone on here is stationed in Blayney they might be able to fill you in.

.

sorry i meant in the past but you know what i mean,do gardai get danger money as part of their wage?

CAG calls for end to army Border allowance
Sunday, 02 November 2008
The Comptroller and Auditor General, John Buckley, has said that the allowance paid to soldiers and support personnel assigned to Border areas should be ended, since there have been no patrols, checkpoints or searches carried out in the area since 2002. Reporting to the Public Accounts Committee Mr Buckley said that last year the total cost of the Border allowance was €5.38m. A spokesman for the Department of Defence responded by saying that the phasing out of the payments would need negotiation between the department and the Army representative bodies.

DubMedic

shakin wrote: »

sorry i meant in the past but you know what i mean,do gardai get danger money as part of their wage?

CAG calls for end to army Border allowance
Reporting to the Public Accounts Committee Mr Buckley said that last year the total cost of the Border allowance was €5.38m.

It's just another excuse to cut payment by the government, the allowances would not add up to that much. It's a figure invented either by the media or a state department to dramatize the funding to public sector workers. The general public would then view it in the media and complain that it could be spent on better things. I bet the public sector will not even get a sniff of this money being saved.

I am not aware of Garda pay arrangements as I am not a Gda.

.

ForegoneReality

ForegoneReality wrote: »

There'll be war in the DMR if the rent allowance is touched.

A lot of house owners up there are almost crippled as it is since the cut in OT.

Rents are coming down. Hard and fast.
http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/viewPost.php?Post_ID=146
and
http://daftwatch.atspace.com/daftcounty_1.html

ScubaDave wrote: »

The PSNI starting to look good to anyone!?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0309/breaking79.html?via=mr
Despite the link I`d says its better than the Guards

Remember lads that if they dont make the cuts then the day will come when the Government wont have the money to pay you at all.
No matter what way you swing it the country needs to make tens of billions of savings....

We should start with letting the banks away with themselves.
I think the only changes to the Gardai should be a 22 year contract and your allowed leave on a pension. This would allow the dead weight to move on, save the country on pensions and pay. Someone joining in their 20s would be leaving in their 40s - still young enough to do something else. They do it in New York and also in the British Army.


ps in my experience those lads in one man stations are retirement homes

Terrontress

psni wrote: »

I know 4 ex-mules who signed up and they said it was the best decision of their lives. Be warned though, I was recently contacted by 2 serving Gardai who didn't even get past the Initial Selection Test, so it might not be as easy as you think to get in.

I'm from Dublin myself, and when I read this Report, I smiled on the inside, and thanked my lucky stars I made the decision to move up here when I did.

You guys are in it deep down there.

Did they say why they did not get in? I often wonder if I would get into my job again were I to re-apply! I suppose some Gardai might be the same.

The difference in cars between PSNI and AGS even prior to this snip would point to one force being better funded.

In my opinion

[quote ps in my experience those lads in one man stations are retirement homes[/quote]

I do not understand what you are saying.

How can a lad be a home?

What are you saying?

In my opinion

In my opinion wrote: »

[quote ps in my experience those lads in one man stations are retirement homes

I do not understand what you are saying.

How can a lad be a home?

What are you saying?[/QUOTE]


ha ha mr pedant, throw in the word "in", tis the internet

In my opinion

Did you ever serve in a one man station? I know the lads locally prefer the district HQ because the one man station is harder job, fact. All files relating to that sub district end up in that 1 man station regardless of who started the file.

I remember when my local station was a 1 and 3 now its a 1 man show. The area has to be policed, the people have to get their service, yes station must be open for people to produce, passports etc etc.

The local intelligence is still gathered and the word of advice is still passed to people on the brink of trouble.

Policing is not all about sect 4s or charge sheets to beat the band the primary role of the Garda Siochana is to prevent crime, protect life and property and then to detect crime. Maybe I am wrong.

I always found the 24hr station ending up doing all the calls. Rarely did the part time stations do any calls. I wont blame the lads in the one man stations though because I dont believe anyone should be out in a patrol car or on the beat alone. Apart from safety issues if you have another Garda you have another witness.

Re the files - its crazy that they dont take account of how many files a single Garda has at a time. In many of the busier places people are actively dodging work because they literally cannot take on anymore files. I always thought that no matter who is out in the car that all the calls requiring investigation should be immediately forwarded to the sergeant who then earns his pay by taking responsibility and deciding who investigates what.
The book stops with the Sergeant, the Sergeant arranges times for statements and allocates resources. An actual team effort. Would cut out alot of messing. Years ago we had a fella go sick with an injury, it was the busiest DMR South station, he was going to be out for a few months (this was when we used forms for checking for stolen cars) and every dodgy file that was going was written off.

irishgrover

deputydugs wrote: »

.......

BLUE FLU is the way and the only way....

correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not illegal for members of the Gardaí to strike? do you not sware to uphold the law, or is that just in the movies / on when it suits ?

DubMedic

irishgrover wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not illegal for members of the Gardaí to strike? do you not sware to uphold the law, or is that just in the movies / on when it suits ?

Illegal is such a strong word. Look back on a few pages of this forum , it has been covered before.

.

bo-bo

In my opinion wrote: »

Did you ever serve in a one man station? I
Policing is not all about sect 4s or charge sheets to beat the band the primary role of the Garda Siochana is to prevent crime, protect life and property and then to detect crime. Maybe I am wrong.

try telling management that :mad:

noel32

i think that what they hinted at in closing stations might not be a bad thing, there are sub districts and its an absolute joke that there is gardai based in them when they could easily be covered by the district hq
imo there are defo some places that could be shut
as for going at the pay and allowences and that, i honestly dont think they would get away with it, key is sticking togehter on it

noel32

and another thing, i used work in an industry before joining the job,
well a girl left the certain place of employment and went to work with the hse, she was back with us within a year as where she was they all just sat around doing nothing, and she had to leave with the boredom of it all,
i mean that **** is crazy

Sierra Oscar

noel32 wrote: »

i think that what they hinted at in closing stations might not be a bad thing, there are sub districts and its an absolute joke that there is gardai based in them when they could easily be covered by the district hq

Depends on the area I would think, area I am living in at the moment recently had its local station re-opened with regular staffing. The station always had a Sargent and two officers until the late 90's. When it only opened for office hours a few days a week crime in the area got out of hand with thugs making people feel terrified.

Ever since the area has had its own officers over the last year the thugs have been kept in line.

It made a big difference to have a local police presence. I don't think Gardai should be forced into abandoning rural areas.

What should have happened was smart investment when the government had money to upgrade stations and equipment - however we all know how much waste went on in this country in general during the boom years.

timmywex

They reckon closing half the stations would save 1million per year.

LEaving aside crime rates and the likes, its wont happen.

Its called political suicide, if there was a significant amount of money to be saved then maybe it could happen, but for such a small amount they won't have the balls.

Same thing will happen in social welfare, even though something has to be done there!

TheNog

timmywex wrote: »

They reckon closing half the stations would save 1million per year.

This is a particular problem I have noticed. Presuming this figure of 1million was being spent during the Celtic Tiger times, it was for the upkeep of 300 garda stations which really shows a total lack of funding for the AGS.

Thats €3333 a year for each station which I think we can safely assume is for heating, lighting and general maintenance of each station. All the while it is quite evident that most of these 300 stations are in bad need of modernisation with some of which could be classed as derelict.