So many 'junkies'

Odysseus

Pace2008 wrote: »

Not Barbiturates, if that's what you mean. According to the Wikipedia page - which is quite comprehensive - death can occur occur from convulsions or catatonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome

I have never heard of death due to benzo withdrawal, I must check that out in work tomorrow. However, they are a terrible drug to come off. A lot of "so called treatment centres" in for example some of the ones run by various Christian groups just offer cold turkey detoxes. Because of this, and no medical supervision within the HSE we can refer people to them, because of the dangers.

board om

Acacia wrote: »

Sorry, just saw your reply now. I didn't mean actually moving them to live out in the middle of nowhere, I just meant to move the actual treatment centres out of the city to reduce drug-related crime.

I don't see drug users as 'undesirables' (I'm not that snobby, LOL) I'm just trying to think of a way that would lessen the damage potentially caused to innocent people as a result of a their drug abuse (muggings, etc.) and also provide help for addicts.

if they moved all the treatment centres to the suburbs then you would have a few problems. firstly addicts would be less likely to get help if they had to travel an hour or two on a bus on a daily basis to attend a clinic. one of the reason they have clinics in eash locality is to encourage addicts to attend them so that they get the help they need. addicts would eventually have to start moving closer to the clinics and then you would end up with areas that were drugged up 'no go' areas. secondly, who would decide what areas get stuck with these clinics? because when a clinic opens it is going to attract all sorts, and nobody wants that on their doorstep. so if you decided that tallaght was to get a few clinics, but ballsbridge was to be clinic free, then that would be a bit unfair to expect tallaght to deal with all the addicts. there are always going to be arguments for and against clinics being opened in every area. in the likes of ballyfermot they actually want more clinics to help deal with the large amount of addicts. but in the likes of D4 they dont want a clinic anywhere near them.

lets face it, snobbery or not, addicts are undesirables. and not because they might wear tracksuits and baseball caps etc. but because there is the fear you will be mugged by them, or that they might attack you in a drugged up state. it doesnt matter if they wore 3 piece suit or tracksuits, the fear of muggings and robbery are there regardless. its there state of mind and prediciment that scare people, not their dress code.

studiorat wrote: »

Some good posts there. Was just wondering how much a habit costs these days? Anyone have any idea?

Regarding living with a habit, I suppose if you could get a regular supply of pharmacutical grade Heroin you could go on for years. But you will get problems with collapsed veins etc as you progress. Problem is that the street stuff is usually cut with other chemicals that don't dissolve in the blood.

Of course living with a gear habit is all well and fine until you loose your job or something else goes wrong. Then it all begins to go pear shaped very quickly...

it is very dificult to say how much a habit would cost an addict because you have street deals and bulk. for instance you see in the papers about anto the addict having a €500 a day habit. but the chances of anto actually spending €500 a day is ridiculous. at this stage he would be buying bulk and selling smaller deals on, so most likely his habit is costing him very little. but saying that, your tolerance to heroin grows very quickly, so you can go from spending €20 a day to €100 a day very quickly. smoking it would cost more as you need more, but then once you start injecting you depend more on it and your tolerance builds up very quickly when injecting so your habit will grow very fast.

if its any help then for someone who uses daily and would have a full time habit of smoking during the day and injecting at night, you would be looking at about €80 a day if you bought in bulk, or €160 if you bought street deals. now that is not to say you would not want more, but to keep it managable and affordable you have to have to limit yourself.

the daily price for a crack addict is unlimited. you could not put a cap on the amount these guys will spend. you will never have enough crack.

you could quite happily live a productive life using heroin. aside from the problems with veins it would not cause massive health risks. you could hold down a normal job and live a normal life. but once you lose control of the addiction you start missing work, and then you lose your job, and then you lose your home, and so on and so on down the spiral until your life is completley out of control. but if you were in a position where funds were unlimited, and you had some self control, you could get away with it for as long as you wanted. its all about self control, which unfortunatly addicts dont have much of.

i know a lot of people who worked and used heroin for years. it was only when they lost their jobs (not only by their own doing) that their habits got out of control. becuase where they were keeping busy during the day working, when they lost their jobs they had nothing to do so they started using more.

Marc Dazzling Show wrote: »

Very informative post board om. Any idea what can be done for the children of these addicts? For example if I see a child with a parent or parents who are obviously addicts and reported this to a Garda or Health Board, can they/will they do anything?

i dont think anything be done can as it is nearly impossible for the state to take custody of a child. and also the state doesnt have the money to keep all these children. they would have to prove that the child is being abused. now you and i would consider that this treatment is abuse, but it doesnt constitute the child being taken away.

i have heard quite a few times of situations where the parents of children were completley strung out and the children were being dragged around town, and being left on there own in the house, so the parents or family of the addicts have stepped in and taken the children away and they are brought up by the family member.

all i can say is there is nothing worse than sitting in somones house and they are amoking heroin and joints around the kids. i have seen it enough times but i still never get used to it. it really disturbs me. the amount of times i have been told "its grand, have a smoke there if you want" while there are kids in the room is just crazy. and worse is when there are infants running around and they pick up a bit of tinfoil and run off with it because its shiny and attractive, and the parents just take it off the child and curse it saying "god, he/she is always grabbing at stuff", as if its the childs fault for being in the situation isntead of theirs.

Odysseus wrote: »

Out of intererst why would you say that, whilst sharing it not a thing of the past and of course Hep C rates at about 75% for IV users. Most I know are quite good around that now. The falling down part is around spoons and filters, people forget about that.

i dont think the figure for Hep C is that high, but you are correct that it is the sharing spoons and other untensils that is the problem. its like they all know not to share needles because "that is just stupid", but then they go and share a spoon or use each others syringes to put out their water. its crazy. and Hep C is very contageous. it can be picked up from sharing pipes and tooters (used for smoking gear).

Odysseus wrote: »

Withdrawal from heroin will not kill anybody, its uncomfortable yes, but the reality is in most cases it can be compared to a really bad case of the flu. You know the type that will put you in bad for about a week. The rest is more of a withdrawal phobia.

However, in Dublin a large % are also using benzos, i.e. valium withdrawal here can be more problematic people can experience fits during withdrawal. However, you still won't call withdrawal fatal

withdrawal from smoking heroin can be like a really bad flu, but from injecting is a lot worse. we arent talking as bad as trainspotting, but its not far off it either. and the longer you use then the worse the withdrawals. then add in the mental cravings and you have a horrible situation. crippling pains, cramps, sweating crazy sweat, diahorrea, etc. and you cant sleep at all. i mean you are as wide awake as if you drank a tray of redbull, and this goes on for days. you will hallucinate crazy stuff. its like you are dreaming while you are awake. your think absolutley insane things and it feels like your head is never going to be sane again. the worst thing is that it doesnt come on slowly, you can feel it creeping in over a few hours, and the next thing you know it hits you like a train and there is no turning back. you either have to ride it through, or go and score. and most in this situation will go and score.

Amalgam wrote: »

I would class withdrawal from certain benzodiazepines as being worse, a much more aggressive experience, both mentally and physically.

benzos are the worst because there is nothing you can take to come off them. they effect your head very badly, your memory in particular. you will forget words and simple names of things, and this will go on for a very long time afterwards. you actually feel like part of your brain is missing. alongside methadone it is one of the worst things to withdraw from. and it is a very long withdrawal.

although i dont know of anybody who has died from withdrawals from benzos, that is not to say it cant happen. it is very serious.

Pace2008 wrote: »

Wow, that was great. Someone on AH who seems to know something about this type of thing, who'd have thought?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Suboxone ( Buprenorphine) is used in Ireland for the management of opioid dependence? I've heard that it's more effective than methadone, but is a lot more expensive.

Suboxone and Subutex are available in limited supply in some of the clinics. they say they are still trialling it and therefore wont give it out to everyone, but that is BS as i know they have been dispensing it for a couple of years from at least 2 clinics in the city centre.

it is far superior to methadone, especially the newer Suboxone as this can not be misused like Subutex was. it is actually used nearly everywhere else in the world except ireland. it is suppsoedly a cost thing. but also the crossover from methadone to suboxone is quite difficult. you see one of the benefits of suboxone is that you dont have to take it every day like with methaodne. you can take it every 2-3 days, and while you are on it other opiates will not work. so even if you did get the cravings to take heroin it would have no effect on you, so it is pointless taking it. with methadone you can still use heroin, so you get a craving and you go and use it. although opiates not working while you are on suboxone is a good thing, it makes it very difficult to crossover from methaodne becuase methaodne is an opiate.

its like this, suboxone takes a few days to start working, and while you are waiting for it to start woking you will start going through withdrawals, but you cant take methadone for the withdrawals as it wont work. so there would be that 2-3 day period where you would be very sick. and becuase of this the clinics are very reluctant to transfer patients from methaodne to suboxone. now if you are coming off just heroin then it is much easier as you are already using, so you can just have your last hit and ease into the suboxone.

now if you are on methadone and you approach the clinics to ask about taking suboxone, be prepared for a very strange conversation. they will basically 'off the record' tell you that you would be better off going back using heroin for a bit and come back to them when the methaodne is out of your system, then they will start you on suboxone. they will not tell you to go out and start using heroin again, they will just 'suggest' that this is an easier route to go down.


And this concludes todays lesson on 'How to be a junkie and survive in todays climate'.

AdamusAdonis

yeah, Dublin is full of junkies, such a shame... never really see any on the streets back home, though I don't deny they're around somewhere... :P

Amalgam

Just out of interest, I read somewhere that 'Rathdown' (Dun Laoghaire etc), not Dublin City had the highest number of registered addicts, per head of population.

Odysseus

[QUOTE=board om;611




i dont think the figure for Hep C is that high, but you are correct that it is the sharing spoons and other untensils that is the problem. its like they all know not to share needles because "that is just stupid", but then they go and share a spoon or use each others syringes to put out their water. its crazy. and Hep C is very contageous. it can be picked up from sharing pipes and tooters (used for smoking gear).




withdrawal from smoking heroin can be like a really bad flu, but from injecting is a lot worse. we arent talking as bad as trainspotting, but its not far off it either. and the longer you use then the worse the withdrawals. then add in the mental cravings and you have a horrible situation. crippling pains, cramps, sweating crazy sweat, diahorrea, etc. and you cant sleep at all. i mean you are as wide awake as if you drank a tray of redbull, and this goes on for days. you will hallucinate crazy stuff. its like you are dreaming while you are awake. your think absolutley insane things and it feels like your head is never going to be sane again. the worst thing is that it doesnt come on slowly, you can feel it creeping in over a few hours, and the next thing you know it hits you like a train and there is no turning back. you either have to ride it through, or go and score. and most in this situation will go and score.

[/QUOTE]

The figures for Hep C are old I grant you, a few years. I would like to think that the % has reduced. I don't think there are any current figures, I could be wrong though. But this was the figures being quoted for a good few years.

You clearly know your stuff around opiate use,/abuse/addiction, but hallunicating whilst withdraw from heroin, nah. I don't believe its possible and of the 1000s of drug users I have worked with over the years, never had one case of this. If someone reported this to me I would be thinking of a psych symptom.

Amalgam

You can have fairly 'delirious' sensations on withdrawal from benzodiazepines. Sadly, I have experience of this.

loveissucide

Letterkenny's swarming with bloody junkies.There really has to be a better way of sorting out idiots.

Pal

Any way we can have Custom House Quay returned to the people please ?

board om

Odysseus wrote: »

The figures for Hep C are old I grant you, a few years. I would like to think that the % has reduced. I don't think there are any current figures, I could be wrong though. But this was the figures being quoted for a good few years.

You clearly know your stuff around opiate use,/abuse/addiction, but hallunicating whilst withdraw from heroin, nah. I don't believe its possible and of the 1000s of drug users I have worked with over the years, never had one case of this. If someone reported this to me I would be thinking of a psych symptom.

i would believe the Hep C figure is high, i just didnt think it was anything as serious as that figure. i know a lot of the old school users from the eighties would most likely have Hep C through the lack of awareness of it and from not having the acces to clean tools like they do now. the number might have come down with newer users being educated better, but really i dont know. i actually hope it isnt that high because that is just scary.

im not talking hallucinations as in big pinks elephants tap dancing on tables, im talking more like very active day dreams that are hard to distingush between them and reality. when you are sick it is very traumatic, as in you are completely all over the place and you mind is a mess. you are completely unsure of anything really. its hard to describe but its like sobriety is slowly coming back, and you have been used to living in this cloudy bubble that you have created for yourslef, like your own little world. and when sobriety starts to kick in you start to remember feelings and things you havent experienced for a long time, so you are trying to distingush between what is normal and what is from your own cloudy little world. you are overly alert to every little thing because you have been so used to having most of your senses switched off, but now that everything is starting to work again you are alert to every noise and smell. things like cigarette smoke that you wouldnt normally notice is really strong and chemically smelling.

you see when you are a full time user you usually know when sickness is coming. because being a full time user you will always have some gear stashed away, and when that runs out you will have a few contacts to get it off. so you would rarely just run out. you will usually only end up going through sickness because you have decided to get clean, or there is a drought on, or for some other reason like that. it is rarely ever just sprung on you. so because of this you know its coming in advance and you are aware of everything. usually what ever the last thing you were doing before sickness kicks in will stick in your head, and you cant get it out or stop thinking about it. like say you were watching a film, then that will be stuck in your head and its all you can think about. then because you cant sleep you lay there wide awake with your head going around in circles thinking about complete nonesense. even though you dont sleep, every now and then your mind will drift off as if you are dreaming, but you are still awake, so it is very vivd. and when you snap out of it you arent sure if you were asleep for a few minutes, or if you were awake, or if anything happened at all. like i have had situations where i have thought about conversations ive had with people, and afterwards im not completely sure whether i have had that conversation or not. as i said, it is like dreaming while you are awake, and you can remember the dreams very clearly, to the point where you could write them down afterwards. and all the time this is happening your body is going through pains and feelings of sickness. and this goes on for days.

so as i said, it isnt extreme 'trainspotting' type hallucinations, it is more like the kind of hallucinations you get from sleep depravation, more confused and delirious.

Crackerspray

I was in Dublin centre the other day, just at the end of North Earl Street where the little corner shop is.... the one thats usually surrounded by junkies. I noticed as I was passing that there was a severe lack of junkies for the first time in years when out of the corner of my eye I saw two Gardi in the junkies 'spot' I was looking in amazement at them as I was delighted they finally got off their arses to tackle the problem!

My elation was short lived when one of the Gadi shouted "ah now GIRLS" I looked over in the direction of his voice only to see a deal between two women, about 20 feet away from the Gardi, which they continued to carry out after the warning. At this stage I was waiting around to see what would happen.... good job I didnt hold my breath, cause the two lazy pricks did nothing to stop them or even take a name.... thats mainly the reason theres drunks and junkies littered around our streets and out of their minds laying at the bases of monuments around our cities... the Gardi are doing NOTHING!! And they're excuses usually range from the amount of paper-work thats involved to "theres no-where to put them"

Im sick of not being able to walk the streets without being afraid of those cnuts hanging around, its very frustrating for the decent citizens of our cities that we are not protected, but the scum are minded like babies!

Sorry for the angry rant, but it really gets to me that the goverment are doing nothing, but why would they? They never have to come into contact with these people!!

Odysseus

board om wrote: »

i would believe the Hep C figure is high, i just didnt think it was anything as serious as that figure. i know a lot of the old school users from the eighties would most likely have Hep C through the lack of awareness of it and from not having the acces to clean tools like they do now. the number might have come down with newer users being educated better, but really i dont know. i actually hope it isnt that high because that is just scary.

im not talking hallucinations as in big pinks elephants tap dancing on tables, im talking more like very active day dreams that are hard to distingush between them and reality. when you are sick it is very traumatic, as in you are completely all over the place and you mind is a mess. you are completely unsure of anything really. its hard to describe but its like sobriety is slowly coming back, and you have been used to living in this cloudy bubble that you have created for yourslef, like your own little world. and when sobriety starts to kick in you start to remember feelings and things you havent experienced for a long time, so you are trying to distingush between what is normal and what is from your own cloudy little world. you are overly alert to every little thing because you have been so used to having most of your senses switched off, but now that everything is starting to work again you are alert to every noise and smell. things like cigarette smoke that you wouldnt normally notice is really strong and chemically smelling.

you see when you are a full time user you usually know when sickness is coming. because being a full time user you will always have some gear stashed away, and when that runs out you will have a few contacts to get it off. so you would rarely just run out. you will usually only end up going through sickness because you have decided to get clean, or there is a drought on, or for some other reason like that. it is rarely ever just sprung on you. so because of this you know its coming in advance and you are aware of everything. usually what ever the last thing you were doing before sickness kicks in will stick in your head, and you cant get it out or stop thinking about it. like say you were watching a film, then that will be stuck in your head and its all you can think about. then because you cant sleep you lay there wide awake with your head going around in circles thinking about complete nonesense. even though you dont sleep, every now and then your mind will drift off as if you are dreaming, but you are still awake, so it is very vivd. and when you snap out of it you arent sure if you were asleep for a few minutes, or if you were awake, or if anything happened at all. like i have had situations where i have thought about conversations ive had with people, and afterwards im not completely sure whether i have had that conversation or not. as i said, it is like dreaming while you are awake, and you can remember the dreams very clearly, to the point where you could write them down afterwards. and all the time this is happening your body is going through pains and feelings of sickness. and this goes on for days.

so as i said, it isnt extreme 'trainspotting' type hallucinations, it is more like the kind of hallucinations you get from sleep depravation, more confused and delirious.

Yeah I know you not talking Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds;) BTH I still dont get, I have never come across hallunication with opiate withdrawal in real life or with the literature.

I know you trying to describe something which is diffiuclt to describe, when you say like the ones associated with sleep depravation I know what you mean, which leads me to question are you talking about the lack of sleep associated with withdrawal caising this? As I don't believe opiates can cause it. However, people still manage to get a few mins of sleep here and there so I don't think that can be the cause either. After all in most cases people with be getting a few hours of sleep within a week of stopping.

The subjective experience of increased awareness isn't a hallunication either, same with the racing thoughts your describing when a person is lying awake. Could you expand on the sleep depravation in relation to the "more confused and delirious" part of you post?

I'm not trying to be smart or catch you out, its an area of interest of mine which is why I'm posting. Also I forgot to metion it in my last post your comment of IV "causing" [if that the correct word you used] more severe withdrawal. As I would view psychical withdrawal to be related to the quanity rather than route of adminstration.

Cheers.

board om

Odysseus wrote: »

Yeah I know you not talking Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds;) BTH I still dont get, I have never come across hallunication with opiate withdrawal in real life or with the literature.

I know you trying to describe something which is diffiuclt to describe, when you say like the ones associated with sleep depravation I know what you mean, which leads me to question are you talking about the lack of sleep associated with withdrawal caising this? As I don't believe opiates can cause it. However, people still manage to get a few mins of sleep here and there so I don't think that can be the cause either. After all in most cases people with be getting a few hours of sleep within a week of stopping.

The subjective experience of increased awareness isn't a hallunication either, same with the racing thoughts your describing when a person is lying awake. Could you expand on the sleep depravation in relation to the "more confused and delirious" part of you post?

I'm not trying to be smart or catch you out, its an area of interest of mine which is why I'm posting. Also I forgot to metion it in my last post your comment of IV "causing" [if that the correct word you used] more severe withdrawal. As I would view psychical withdrawal to be related to the quanity rather than route of adminstration.

Cheers.

It is very hard to describe any more than I already have. I have been wrecking my head trying to think of a better way of explaining it but its just one of those things that you have to go through to fully comprehend. it could very well be the sleep depravation. you see, even though there are certain feelings everyone experiences while going through heroin withdrawals, there are also certain things that effect some worse than others. for instance when i go through withdrawals i will not sleep at all for at least the first 48-72 hours. i would be absolutely wired and i wont get a wink of sleep. this would be most likely what causes me to be confused and delerious. most of what i have described above happens within the first 48-72 hours so the lack of sleep could attribute to most of it. i dont believe that somehow the lack of opiates is causing me to halucinate and be confused and delerious, i think it is more the state of mind i would be in at the time. the combination of withdrawal of opiates, no sleep, constant sickness, etc. that is another problem that i have going through withdrawals. i am constantly vomiting. i cant stop myself. if im not vomiting then i am retching. this is actually one of the things that stops me getting clean. i cant face that fear of uncontrollable vomiting. i hate it. its like my throat is numb so i cant swallow without retching, let alone drink something. it is a horrible experience. now i know that not everyone experiences this but it is something that really effects me.

regarding IV use causing more severe withdrawals, this would definitly be the case. no matter how much heroin you smoke, you will always get worse withdrawals from injecting. its like the higher you go, the harder you fall, and you will always get higher from injecting. no matter how much you smoke, you could never smoke enough to get the same feeling as you would from injecting. its a completley different hit altogether.

years ago when i first started injecting, i was only doing it occasionally and smoking the rest of the time. i was used to going through withdrawals every now and then, but the first time i went through withdrawls after i started injecting it was 1000 times worse. i didnt know what hit me. sure you can even feel the difference the next day after injecting. lets say you smoke heroin, then the following day you havent smoked, you will be fine for most of the day. the sickness wont hit you straight away and you can function well enough. and when sickness does start, it will come on slowly and gradually. but when you inject, if you dont use the next day the sickness just hits you. one minute you will be fine and the next minute you will be breaking out in sweats and your stomach will be churning. there is a huge difference in the sickness. the symptoms are the same but on two very different levels, the symptoms from injecting being the more severe.

the route of administration plays a bit part. smoking it will never get you in the same league of sickness as injecting it. but also i used to find i got very little sickness from snorting it. i used to snort it quite a bit, and even though it really hit you hard, it never had that bad a sickness off it. and i actually know a few people who will snort it for that very reason. now that is not to say there is no sickness from snorting it, there is of course, just not as severe. and if you smoke it, no matter how bad your habit is, you will never have as severe withdrawls as when you inject.

Pal wrote: »

Any way we can have Custom House Quay returned to the people please ?

no worries, ill bring it up at the next general meeting.