Photography

Anouilh

Curvy Vixen wrote: »

...but as has already been said, the original question was a fair one but was there a need to add the 'are women less technically minded' question at the end?

Yes.

I chose a question in order to stimulate debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

And here is another one:

Would the posters here like to join the Photography Forum and post photos, please?

This is an open invitation...

(And thank you for your time and for such an interesting discussion.)

KarmaGarda

Curvy Vixen wrote: »

Again, as has already been stated, why do we need so many questions that 'blame' the lack of something in the gender rather than query as to why specific people don't do the act in question.

As a statement I completely agree with this, there are far to many people too quick to cast blame and cause gender related arguments. I hope you understand that this isn't what I've been debating here with ye. All I'm simply debating is that the original post from the photography forum was taken out of context.

I appreciate that you here can get annoyed when things like this crop up, but I feel that this time is was way off the original topic, so for me I was disappointed that this post ever happened. But that's just personal opinion.

On the otherhand though, if the argument was gender related, I don't think there's anything wrong with debating gender differences in this manner. It happens across all manners of differing social views/positions/etc. I think that having a poll on religion/sexuality/ethnicity isn't ethical, but the idea of age based debate isn't. The views of different people depending on their age bracket is extremely interesting to me. Doesn't make me ageist though.

So my question is:

Why do so many people hate gender related discussions?



On a side note:

Jules wrote: »

Karmagarda and kumate champ07 if you have nothing of value to add to the conversation please refrain from commenting at all.

Consider yourselves warned.

All I can do is laugh at this. Come back when you've something constructive to warn me about!

g'em

KarmaGarda wrote: »

All I can do is laugh at this. Come back when you've something constructive to warn me about!

No, you can come back in a week when you learn how to speak to other people courteously and not argue with a Moderator in-thread.

AnCatDubh

Anouilh wrote: »

Would the posters here like to join the Photography Forum and post photos, please?

Well, you don't quite join the photography forum, or the ladies lounge, so i'm not sure what the above question is intended to raise. You join boards.ie thereafter you participate in the forums as you wish with the exception of the hosted forums (is my understanding).

I could be wrong, but the way the debate has been received here as it's been lifted from the photography forum hasn't been with great gusto - if I were an active member here, I certainly wouldn't be encouraged by what has transpired. But I think the question posed here in the ladies lounge is fundamentally different to that which originally inspired the thread on the photography forum.

What is interesting to me (having posed the original thread on the photography forum) is that the piece I read which suggests in general (obviously not all circumstances) that the female gender are the more creative and more edgy and that their work generally floats to the top passing out their male counterparts, hasn't been disputed (iirc) once on either thread. Its just an interesting observation.

shellyboo

AnCatDubh wrote: »

What is interesting to me (having posed the original thread on the photography forum) is that the piece I read which suggests in general (obviously not all circumstances) that the female gender are the more creative and more edgy and that their work generally floats to the top passing out their male counterparts, hasn't been disputed (iirc) once on either thread. Its just an interesting observation.

Trying to get to the crux of the question here.

Are you asking why, when women are allegedly more creative and are better photographers, more men than women post pics in the photography forum?


If that's the gist, I'd go with a mix of the fact that there are more men on boards than women, and secondly, that women in general are more afraid of censure than men.

I was going to call it modesty, but it's not really. Women in general are less likely to put themselves or their work out there for criticism because - well, for a number of reasons, really. Women are harsher on other women, and men can also be harsher on women - as evidenced by this thread.

If a woman is bad at photography, that apparently means women are less technical. But if a man is bad at it - what sweeping generalisation can we draw from that? Men are less technical? Everyone is less technical?

Or, some people aren't good at some things. Some people includes both men and women.

The reason this thread has gotten such a hostile reaction is because about ten threads a week in here boil down to the above statement.

Curvy Vixen

Anouilh wrote: »

Yes.

I chose a question in order to stimulate debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

Well what was your real question then?

a) Why don't women post more photos in the photography forum?

Or

b) Are women less technically minded (and for that a lot of people read 'less intelligent') than men???

One is a very valid query and the other is a generalised insult tbh.

Silverfish

Ok, for clarity, I would like to point out the posts on that thread I was responding to.

I have my own theory, which is that fora like this can get very technical which can appeal to the boys a lot more.

At DCC the emphasis is more on the image itself & the technicalities are an aside to that. I think that approach appeals to the girls a lot more.

It's hard for women to be single minded & focused on a goal without letting other distractions getting in the way.

Personally, I think that there is a little more male involvement in photography only because cameras are geeky toys, always were and always will be.

Most the female photographers i know ( bar a few of course) aren't very creative at all... women in general almost have a set style the all follow

And the way it was paraphrased here, which was 'Are ladies less technical than men?'.

So it was presented to us that way here, when I read the thread it still reads that way to me. Yes, I admit I was probably too strong with my post on the thread, I should in fact have posted that here and not there, but I believe I paid the price with the venom I received in response.

It may not have been the way the thread was intended or started, but it was the turn the thread took long before the posts here. In my opinion, none of the quoted posts above answer the original query in the OP either, so it wasn't just the people here defending ourselves that got the wrong end of the stick.
And like shellyboo said, a lot of us here are tired explaining and justifying people's prior misconceptions continually on this forum, and many others.

WindSock

Anouilh wrote: »

Would the posters here like to join the Photography Forum and post photos, please?

This is an open invitation...

Ok. Just tell me how to compress pics on my PC and I'm away...:pac:

Invitation works both ways, btw.

AnCatDubh

Just a point on the poll as it appears to be part of what the misunderstanding is. The poll which btw Dev has posted an excellent refute on thread (but probably missed it's original intention) tells one thing and one thing only - Of those that respond to it(which isn't definitive), what respondents indicate is the breakdown in gender of users of the forum.

It has shifted a little over the time of it but it basically says 1 of 4 boards users who frequent the photography forum (posters or lurkers) are female - this according to Dev is similar to the boards census average. The Magnum photo agency average (which is what the original post referenced) was about 1 of 5 so in theory albeit with unproved statistics we are a little better than the Magnum agency.

shellyboo wrote: »

Are you asking why, when women are allegedly more creative and are better photographers, more men than women post pics in the photography forum?

The question resolved around why women who in a generalised sense appear to be 'better' photographers (evaluated on a criteria of creativity and edgyness) don't actually transcend into those recognised at the top of their game - in the Magnum agency's example at a ratio of only 1 of 5. Some absolutely do - Eve Arnold is one of my favourites. Jenn Ackerman has just been awarded a burn emerging photographer award - she produces some bleeding edge stuff. We have some amazing creative and edgy talent over on the photography forum from female photographers (a number of males too). But the odds (anecdotialally) are against this talent from making the leap or transcending whatever chasm is there.

Silverfish has passionately and eloquently posted on both threads - the content of which I am grateful for. At one point Silverfish suggested that life circumstance doesn't favour the female gender in this regard. (Silverfish - I hope I understood and haven't misrepresented your posts which also has to be added refute much of the technical/geeky perhaps irrational discourse). My original question may be answered as simply as that although I had thought that it might have a far more complex (or less travelled) reason. It does stack up and probably withstands argument.

Again, thanks for your time here folks. I appreciate this isn't my natural home forum on boards and hope I haven't upset anyone unduly. If I have then I apologise sincerely.

WindSock

Perhaps it is only the edgy female photographers that get noticed? The ones that have to work that little bit harder to be at the top of the game?

Rhyme

WindSock wrote: »

Ok. Just tell me how to compress pics on my PC and I'm away...:pac:

Invitation works both ways, btw.

If you upload them to Flickr, you can link people to a large thumbnail as far as I know, I'll have to investigate that when I start using Flickr again

/offtopic

Being 'edgy' will get you noticed but it's talent that will usually get you recognised. I wouldn't consider Cindy Sherman edgy but I would call her talented and has earned her reputation through the clever use of that talent. Incidentally, she's one of my favourite photographers

Dragan

WindSock wrote: »

Ok. Just tell me how to compress pics on my PC and I'm away...:pac:

Invitation works both ways, btw.

Don't worry about compressing. Depending on the camera you have the size of the actual output might be pretty small.

Set up a Flickr account ( this is what i use ) it's incredibly easy to batch load stuff and add tags and names and all that jazz, plus on the free account you still get 100MB a month to upload, which can be plenty of pictures.

It's always interesting to see new work so if you do it would love to get a link to your stuff.:)

mrmac

What an emotive thread, sadly, producing some mis-guided hostility imho.
I'm going to stay away from any generalised comments and try to bring this back to what the original thread in the photography forum was started for.

I have posted a few pictures on the photography forum, and have greatly enjoyed the good natured camaraderie that pervades that forum. I feel it is particularily void of any gender reference, and when giving or recieving comments, I wouldn't be aware of the posters gender (or care for that matter).

My Wife, of 15 years, is much more creative/artistic than me! She has a portfolio in the attic that is amazing, but now a days, her hobbies are else where. If I get a quite hour, I'll have a read through some of the posts on boards, if my Wife gets a quite hour, she'll do some gardening or watch some TV in peace! Not easy with two little ones!

In our circumstances, I like to, (or try to,) be creative in order to escape, whereas my Wife needs to escape in order to be creative. If you can understand what I mean?
Therefore it is much easier for me to participate. My Wife has different interests - (that's allowed!) - and I'd be totally rubbish at her hobbies! (I'm just not talented enough tbh!).

To put it another way, I can be in a room full of kids, working on a picture, my head miles away!
Where as, my Wife needs to be in a quite room, left on her own, to let her imagination blossom.

I'm not painting a picture of everyone, or saying this is a gender issue, merely trying to give a resonibly response to the original question, based on personal experience.

Fajitas!

IronyMaiden wrote: »

However, this is the Ladie's Lounge, and sometimes the community here gets annoyed at being treated like a focus group for "what women think of this". At least when it comes from people who don't post here normally, regardless of their sex.

Just poking fun here, but that's opposed to when someone comes into the photography forum, and treats it as a focus group for "What photographers think of this" or into Gigs & Events and look for "Gig lovers opinions of this"...

I don't think any offence was meant by the thread - I don't think it needed to be posted here, but it was, and it is. *shrugs shoulders*

WindSock wrote: »

Perhaps it is only the edgy female photographers that get noticed? The ones that have to work that little bit harder to be at the top of the game?

Oh, absolutely not. Look at Hilla Becher' straight-on-studies on buildings, or June Winters' fashion photography back in the 70's/80's/90's. Susan Sontag's studies of the banal and ignored. There's loads of female photographers out there that stay away from the sensationalist dream, and still make it quite big. There's loads more names that I could drop (And be a big fan of... and not be edgy... or sensationalist... or just boobs-out-self-portraits-for-the-lads...)

But, Windsock, do as Aidan said, set yourself up a Flickr, add a few folk on it (You can even keep your photos hidden from the public) and see what happens. As I mentioned before, the best way of learning is through showing your photos and looking at other peoples, asking questions and giving answers!

With regard to Curvy Vixen's post;

Well what was your real question then?

a) Why don't women post more photos in the photography forum?

Or

b) Are women less technically minded (and for that a lot of people read 'less intelligent') than men???

One is a very valid query and the other is a generalised insult tbh.

I don't think any insult was meant by the thread starter, the original thread starter or any other posters (Inc. myself ). I'd hate to think any of this was a case of "Women don't know how to use *blah blah blah*". As such, I don't think the real question was a question at all, but a prompt to a debate, which has certainally happened.

Apologies if any of the above is seen as nasty (Esp. the first part), I don't mean it to be.

Silverfish

Fajitas! wrote: »

But, Windsock, do as Aidan said, set yourself up a Flickr, add a few folk on it (You can even keep your photos hidden from the public) and see what happens. As I mentioned before, the best way of learning is through showing your photos and looking at other peoples, asking questions and giving answers!
.

I've another question.

Why flickr? Everyone told me to use picasa which I did cos I always used it so I was all smug, now (and indeed, before picasa) everyone says flickr again.

Is it just to confuse and bewilder me, or is there another reason?

Fajitas!

Tbh, it's just to piss you off :pac:

Well, the main reason is... We're all there (Mostly). There's a Boards.ie group, it's easy see other Boards.ie contacts, which makes it all so much easier to post on each others photographs! I think there's a bit of a changover these days to www.pix.ie but I'm not cool enough to follow through on it... in fact, I stopped uploading photographs publically to Flickr.

Tbh V, there's nothing wrong with your photoblog either, which is another (Very active in Ireland) side to photography on t'internet.

Silverfish

Fajitas! wrote: »

Tbh, it's just to piss you off :pac:

I knew it!!!


Ooh I'll show them.... I'll show them all.....



/creates flickr account


EDIT: yeah, I prefer picasa.

CONFUSE ME, WILL YE?!

Anouilh

Silverfish wrote: »

I knew it!!!


Ooh I'll show them.... I'll show them all.....



/creates flickr account


EDIT: yeah, I prefer picasa.

CONFUSE ME, WILL YE?!

Here's looking forward to seeing your work.

The poll now shows an increase in the number of women on the Photography Forum.

We should all stand up and take a bow...

Lia_lia

I like photography. I do multimedia in college and I have a camera. I don't like putting pictures up on the photography forum because I feel like they are awful compared to to the others.

Silverfish

Anouilh wrote: »

Here's looking forward to seeing your work.

The poll now shows an increase in the number of women on the Photography Forum.

We should all stand up and take a bow...

Well Ive posted a number of photos on the photography forum in the past, but in light of that thread and this I don't really feel that welcome there anymore, there were a lot of venomous comments.


Sorry.

Anouilh

Silverfish wrote: »

Well Ive posted a number of photos on the photography forum in the past, but in light of that thread and this I don't really feel that welcome there anymore, there were a lot of venomous comments.


Sorry.

Oh, people got het up and let off steam.

We're back chatting about street photography and calendars.

How would you like to have posters following in your wake and trying damage limitation, as happened when I started this thread?

I just went off and took more photos to upload and present for the pleasure of all.

It's only the Internet, after all, and since posters who make angry remarks don't know one personally, it's not exactly life threatening.

I'm sorry you had your feelings hurt.

Anouilh

Lia_lia wrote: »

I like photography. I do multimedia in college and I have a camera. I don't like putting pictures up on the photography forum because I feel like they are awful compared to to the others.

You have some lovely portraits on your threads list.

They would be very welcome and sometimes there are threads on the subject of modelling and how to make portraits sparkle.

It is not necessary to ask for criticism on your work.

If you would like help with improving a photo that you are working on, just add C&C in the new thread title.