Dogs and crazy parents

karlog

Was walking my dog in the country a while ago. Seeing that there was no one around i decided to let her off the lead. Shes a friendly dog but she does tend to chase and jump up on alot of things.

Eventually I came up to a father walking with his kids. One of the kids was very young and my dog being the lively one jumped up and knocked the child down. Now it didn't bite or attack the child in any way, just jumped up playfully im guessing.

Problem was the father went absolutely ape**** and kicked my dog so hard that i'm surprised he didn't break any of her ribs. I wont go into detail about the argument that followed but there was alot of cursing which i'm sorry to say his kids had to hear.

He basically threatened to put my dog down for apparently attacking his child which it did not do.

I know i was in the wrong somewhat for having an untrained dog off a leash, but does that give him the right to actually kick my dog and even have it put down or is that just a false threat and he really is just an ***hole?

biko

You were totally in the wrong. If your unleashed dog approaches a child and knocks it over, I understand why the father would kick it. He can't know that "it's the friendliest dog in the world".
What type dog is it? Not a chihuahua?

Silverfish

Should probably have kept the dog on the lead, because there WAS people around, and you knew what your dog was capable of.

He doesn't have the right to kick your dog or have it put down, but neither do you have the right to let your dog knock over kids who are going for a walk.

Was the child hurt or scared?

TanG411

also the father was being protective of his child. If he sees the dog knocking over his child, he's not going to stare at it, he's going to react harshly. He didn't know your dog was a friendly one.

Silverfish

When people say 'my dog is friendly' they mean 'my dog is friendly to me / friendly when I am about'.

I've been bitten or snarled at by some of the world's 'friendliest' dogs as soon as their owner left the room.

karlog

Yeah i guess

It's a border collie by the way oh and i forgot to mention the child wasn't hurt just shaken up a bit

Ddad

You had no right to have the dog off the lead. He had every right to bring his small children for a walk without disturbance. Would I have kicked the dog? No. Would I have bol$%cked the head off you, you betcha.

What age was the child? An incident like that can scare the living daylights out of a small one and leave them with a complex about dogs.

I hope this doesn't turn into another 'he/she's harmless'; 'never caused any trouble';'only playing' sort of threads. The father doesn't have a clue of any of that. All he see's is an animal hurting his child.....not a great leap to giving it a dig.

biko

Well border collies are known to be friendly. I'm sure that things would have been different if it had been a dog on the Dangerous Dogs list.
Hopefully the guy won't bring you up on charges for having an unleashed dog.

What could have happened

Unleashed dog shot in park
Uxbridge, MA (US)
Francis Daignault, 63, shot a 10-year old border collie mix-breed in the mouth with a .38-caliber handgun when the dog ran up to his wife at the West Hill Dam. His wife was panicked as the unleashed dog ran up to her.

Daignault was summoned to the U.S. Federal Court in Worcester on charges of carrying a firearm on federal property, an offense punishable by a fine of $50 to $500 and up to six months in jail.

Dave Mitchell, 46, owner of the dog, will be fined $25 for walking an unleashed dog.

Uxbridge police Sgt Scott Freitas said, "If he didn't have a gun, this wouldn't have happened and if the dog was leashed this wouldn't have happened. The major issue is that we don't want people walking around the park with a firearm."

Mitchell said, "The dogs got 20 feet from them and the woman started screaming. Her husband kicked Coco, and Coco went up on his hind legs. The guy pulled out a gun and shot him right in the mouth."

Daignault said, "They ran at us headlong for about 50 yard. We were being attacked by two animals."

Sgt Freitas said, "His argument is going to be self-defense."

Coco had surgery for wounds resulting from the bullet entering his mouth and exiting his neck. Coco will survive the shooting and will be released from the Uxbridge Animal Hospital.

Maddison

All dogs irregardless of breed should be kept on a leash at all times, as an owner of 2 rottweilers & a parent. I see my dogs as being the friendliest dogs in the world but under no circumstances would I allow my child near our dogs without full supervision. Today I am adopting a JRT and the same rules with still apply to this dog. As a parent & dog owner I feel that it was entirely your fault that your dog got that kick.

doctorjohn

"Was walking my dog in the country a while ago. Seeing that there was no one around i decided to let her off the lead."

Being the country = all the more reason for KEEPING him on the lead

"she does tend to chase and jump up on alot of things."

All the more reason for keeping her on the lead

"One of the kids was very young and my dog .... jumped up and knocked the child down. "

All the more reason for keeping her on the lead

"the father kicked my dog"
I would have too

"there was alot of cursing which i'm sorry to say his kids had to hear".
If the dog was on the lead they wouldn't have heard that.

"He basically threatened to put my dog down for apparently attacking his child"

Well the apparently bit is how it appeared to the father. I can't blame him. All the more reason for having the dog on the lead

"I know i was in the wrong somewhat for having an untrained dog off a leash"

All the more reason for having him on the lead

", but does that give him the right to actually kick my dog"

The ISPCA would say no but every father would say yes

"and he really is just an ***hole?"
Glasshouses and stones!!!!!!!!!!

I am a father of little kids and a dog owner. If our dog (tiny little terrier) jumped up on any of my kids or the neighbours kids and knock them down they would develop a lifelong fear of dogs. Not fair on the kids. The dog would know about it and never do it again.

If you haven't yet trained your dog to behave appropriately around children or in the countryside then keep him on a lead or just don't take him out of the house or do a bit of introspection to see if you are the right person to be a dog owner.

Come down off your high horse and get your own house in order.

YT

I was out walking with my dad when I was about 10 and a St Bernard dog ran and jumped on me, it knocked me down to the ground and wouldn't get off me. My dad kicked it off me. The owner went mad saying the dog was just playing and wanted my icecream and was calling my dad every name under the sun.

What the f*ck was he supposed to do? "Oh it's ok, that huge big dog has my young daughter pinned down, it's only playing, darling give it your icecream"

F*ck off.

I've been afraid of dogs (and gollybars!) since, actually not so much afraid as wary, and I hate when people who have their dogs off their leads at the beach and the dog runs up at you, they tut and moan saying at you when you flinch.
Not everyone likes dogs, and not everyone knows your dog is playing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Magnus wrote: »

Well border collies are known to be friendly. I'm sure that things would have been different if it had been a dog on the Dangerous Dogs list.
Hopefully the guy won't bring you up on charges for having an unleashed dog.

What could have happened

First off Ireland doesn't have a 'dangerous dogs list'.

Second its not an offence to have a border collie off the leash, where the OP falls down is not having effective control over his dog.

I can completely understand the father reacting the way he did had the dog shown any aggression, but from reading this the dog playfully jumped at the child - in which case the childs father over reacted to the situation, but he probably knew that when he cooled down & infact probably upset and caused more fright to his child than the dog did.

karlog

Ok well i have been training my dog to be more tame, i think the father gave it a kick in the right direction so to speak. Luckily no person/animal was fatally injured.

I just hope the child does'nt grow up with a fear of dogs like you did and no more unsuspecting animals come in contact with fathers kick of wrath

Thanks for the comments:D

Kiera

Hazel Curved Slugger wrote: »

First off Ireland doesn't have a 'dangerous dogs list'.

Second its not an offence to have a border collie off the leash, where the OP falls down is not having effective control over his dog.

I can completely understand the father reacting the way he did had the dog shown any aggression, but from reading this the dog playfully jumped at the child - in which case the childs father over reacted to the situation, but he probably knew that when he cooled down & infact probably upset and caused more fright to his child than the dog did.

Mairt you have kids. If a dog you didnt know ran towards your child would you not try protect her? The OP knows that the dog is playful and jumps up on people/things. Therefor he should have kept it on the lead in a public place.

Maddison

Makikomi, Im sorry but I have to disagree with you there, I dont feel that the father of the child would have calmed down afterwards, I personally wouldnt have, I dont feel that he over reacted at all. And there may no be a ''dangerous dog list'' per se but there is a ''Restricted dogs list''. All dogs have the potential to be dangerous and I feel that more attacks are carried out by the more ''harmless'' dogs & its the owners of our restricted breeds that have to put up with the doggie discrimination. As far as I am aware you are an owner of one of these restricted breeds & you would be aware of the restrictions that are imposed on our ''friendly'' dogs.

biko

Hazel Curved Slugger wrote: »

First off Ireland doesn't have a 'dangerous dogs list'.

Second its not an offence to have a border collie off the leash, where the OP falls down is not having effective control over his dog.

I can completely understand the father reacting the way he did had the dog shown any aggression, but from reading this the dog playfully jumped at the child - in which case the childs father over reacted to the situation, but he probably knew that when he cooled down & infact probably upset and caused more fright to his child than the dog did.

Sorry I meant "Control of Dogs Regulations, 1998" which states

5. (1) This article shall apply to every:—
(a) American Pit Bull Terrier,
(b) Bull Mastiff,
(c) Doberman Pinscher,
(d) English Bull Terrier,
(e) German Shepherd (Alsatian),
(f) Japanese Akita,
(g) Japanese Tosa,
(h) Rhodesian Ridgeback,
(i) Rottweiler,
(j) Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and to every dog of the type commonly known as a Ban Dog (or Bandog), and to every other strain or cross of every breed or type of dog described in this article.

(2) A person shall not permit a dog to which this article applies to be in a public place unless such dog is:—
(i) securely muzzled; and
(ii) being led by a sufficiently strong chain or leash, not exceeding two metres in length, by a person over the age of sixteen years who is capable of controlling the said dog.

OP, about the leash - you can check with your local council what applies to your area. Some bye-laws will allow dogs without, some won't.

Lafortezza

Hazel Curved Slugger wrote: »

I can completely understand the father reacting the way he did had the dog shown any aggression, but from reading this the dog playfully jumped at the child - in which case the childs father over reacted to the situation, but he probably knew that when he cooled down & infact probably upset and caused more fright to his child than the dog did.

Read the OP again, the dog jumped at the small child and knocked him/her to the ground.
Kids and dogs can be unpredictable. A dog jumps at a child, the child freaks out, maybe screams or grabs the dog, and the dogs snaps. All because an untrained dog was off a lead.

I've no kids, but I'm sure if you polled the parents of small children, say 7 and under, that if a dog knocked them over and didn't immediately run away, then that dog is getting a boot.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Kiera wrote: »

Mairt you have kids. If a dog you didnt know ran towards your child would you not try protect her? The OP knows that the dog is playful and jumps up on people/things. Therefor he should have kept it on the lead in a public place.

But your not reading what I posted.

I think most of us would know the difference between a playful dog and an aggressive one.

The father in this case clearly didn't and has most likely instilled a life long fear of dogs into his child.

I'm not excusing the OP in all of this either. It should be the resposiblity of dog owner's to have effective control over their dogs.

Its also clear that the OP feels no responsiblity in in this regard, dog training isn't that expensive and is easily accessible in most area's of the country.

My advice as a boards.ie user would be that the OP visit the 'Animals & PEts' forum and seek advice on training for him and his dog.

YT

lafortezza wrote: »

Read the OP again, the dog jumped at the small child and knocked him/her to the ground.
Kids and dogs can be unpredictable. A dog jumps at a child, the child freaks out, maybe screams or grabs the dog, and the dogs snaps. All because an untrained dog was off a lead.

I've no kids, but I'm sure if you polled the parents of small children, say 7 and under, that if a dog knocked them over and didn't immediately run away, then that dog is getting a boot.

I just want to add to your excellent post, it's not just children who are afraid of dogs either.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Magnus wrote: »

Sorry I meant "Control of Dogs Regulations, 1998" which states

OK, taking that into account how would the outcome have been different had the dog been one on that list?.

Maddison

In my opinion there is no 100% friendly dog & there is no true way of telling that a dog is going to be friendly on approach, dogs can turn within a split second.

Kiera

Hazel Curved Slugger wrote: »

But your not reading what I posted.

I think most of us would know the difference between a playful dog and an aggressive one.

The father in this case clearly didn't and has most likely instilled a life long fear of dogs into his child.

I'm not excusing the OP in all of this either. It should be the resposiblity of dog owner's to have effective control over their dogs.

Its also clear that the OP feels no responsiblity in in this regard, dog training isn't that expensive and is easily accessible in most area's of the country.

My advice as a boards.ie user would be that the OP visit the 'Animals & PEts' forum and seek advice on training for him and his dog.

I totally agree with this to a point. I think the father and the dog owner would be to blame if the child had a fear of dogs after this.

lafortezza wrote:

Kids and dogs can be unpredictable. A dog jumps at a child, the child freaks out, maybe screams or grabs the dog, and the dogs snaps. All because an untrained dog was off a lead.

This is exactly what could happen. The dog might be friendly BUT could turn due to the child grabbing it or hitting it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

lafortezza wrote: »

then that dog is getting a boot.

Give it a boot by all means, but just remember that most dogs don't bite us because they have either been trained not to, or simply because they don't want to.

But as soon as a dog decide's YOU deserve a bite, regardless how big or small that dog is, or what breed it is - YOUR in the sh*t!.

.

Duckjob

You were totally in the wrong because you know your dogs behaviour better than anyone else, and should have known better.

If the dog had just ambled up quietly and the guy gave it a kick, that would be out of order. But it bounded up and knocked his child over. How could he know in that second whether your dog is friendly or if it's about to sink its teeth into the kids face?

I'm speaking as a dog owner who leaves my doggie off the lead in parks myself. Not being hypocritical - she pays no attention to kids. Usually the other way around- they chase her and she walks away from them.

Lafortezza

Hazel Curved Slugger wrote: »

Give it a boot by all means, but just remember that most dogs don't bite us because they have either been trained not to, or simply because they don't want to.

I agree. In the situation described in the OP it's incredibly rare that the dog would be in any way aggressive more than excited and playful, but we're talking about a dad whose child has just been knocked to the ground by an unknown dog, he's not taking any chances to wait and see how friendly or otherwise the dog is.

But as soon as a dog decide's YOU deserve a bite, regardless how big or small that dog is, or what breed it is - YOUR in the sh*t!.
.

I'd take my chances vs the dog after kicking it, instead of a small child on the ground with a strange dog standing over/beside them.

Maddison

I dont think ANY dog should be allowed off the lead unless trained to recall, if they are in a park & there are no children about yes I dont see the problem with the dogs being off the lead but If children come into said park I think It should be the responsibility of the dog owner to recall the dog & put its leash back on.

biko

Hazel Curved Slugger wrote: »

OK, taking that into account how would the outcome have been different had the dog been one on that list?.

You tell me, don't you have a couple dogs yourself on that list? What happens when a unleashed and unmuzzled Rottweiler or Staffordshire Bull Terrier runs up to and knocks over a child?

doctorjohn

"I think most of us would know the difference between a playful dog and an aggressive one."

Agree but that is as applies to the "most of us" who have or have had dogs or have grown up around dogs. Also applies to the "most of us" who are drawn to read a thread about dogs.

There is a massive majority of the community who haven't and have no experience of "reading" dogs and within that group is a large chunk who have been intimidated or frightened by dogs either as children themselves or as adults.

Dog ownership is a decision made by us dog owners to enrich our lives and with it comes its responsibilities. It is not a decision that the greater community was party to and they shouldn't have to be influenced in ANY way about our decision unless they choose themselves to be involved.

That applies to
1) the ****e our dogs make (it is our obligation to remove same and not leave it for others to come upon)
2) our dogs behaviour on and off the leash
3) whether our dogs even approach anyone else (child or adult) uninvited whether on or off the leash
4) If someone has a fear of dogs (no matter how rational or irrational) they are within their rights to ask us to remove our dogs from their presence when out in public and we should have the common decency and courtesy to remove them and not try to argue the toss by saying "ahh sure he wont bite - he's harmless"

we live in a society. We can do what we want in our own backyards but outside in public be it roads / beaches / parks / mountains / streets / estates we need to consider the others who chose not to live with dogs.

time for us to think of others first and ourselves and our dogs second.

"they're not just for christmas".

ps
I work in an area where I have to call to may houses and a sizeable chunk of them have farmhouse collies as farmdogs but most of them are underworked and are viscous and believe me their bite is as bad as their bark and "don't mind him he's harmless" is a throway lazy comment not based on what might happen but just on what probably hasn't happened to often up 'till then.

Duckjob

Maddison wrote: »

I dont think ANY dog should be allowed off the lead unless trained to recall, if they are in a park & there are no children about yes I dont see the problem with the dogs being off the lead but If children come into said park I think It should be the responsibility of the dog owner to recall the dog & put its leash back on.

Some kids should be on a leash as well

Maddison

Duckjob wrote: »

Some kids should be on a leash as well

I agree completely, when Im out shopping Id sometimes love to put a leash on my darling little boy but unfortunately It might be seen as child abuse.:pac:

doctorjohn

Maddison wrote: »

I agree completely, when Im out shopping Id sometimes love to put a leash on my darling little boy but unfortunately It might be seen as child abuse.:pac:

I agree totally. My youngest is a greater threat to the safety of society than any dog I know. However if I put him in the kennel out back at night the social workers would come a knocking