It just occurred to me today......

Whiskey Devil

Biggins wrote: »

I think you haven't thought the above through.
So we would be up the creek if we were only speaking our own language and not English?
Gee - I can't imagine how other European countries are coping with their other languages!
They must be really behind the times and more downtrodden, trying to cope socially, politically and economically. :rolleyes:

Class. :pac:

BraziliaNZ

devereaux17 wrote: »

oh and people who say ireland would have been too small, if growth had continued at the level before the famine and we never became the nation of emmigrants, irelands population would be something like 30 million today, its a vast country with so much empty space. i'm not sure if this is completely right but at the time of the famine we had a population of 8 million and the uk something like 21 million and our population was growing at a much faster rate than that of the uk.

Munster is bigger than Netherlands yet has a population of just over 1 and a half million today.

LOL. How could you possibly want more people on this island? The whole island is ruined with farms everywhere, and our scenic areas are dotted with ugly houses. We have no forests and not many national parks. The place has had too many people on it for too long that's why it's such a boring looking island for the most part, just farm after farm. If we had less people we'd have tonnes of oak forests like the way it used to be. Having a packed country like holland is nothing to be proud of.

devereaux17

Acacia wrote: »

That's not really fair. You can criticize what Britain did to Ireland in the past, and still have no problem with British people /culture now. Isn't it better to move on from the past than say ''I won't support any English football teams/ shop in English shops. etc because of what their ancestors did 800 years ago?"

It's not like the British people alive now have anything to do with what happened in the past. So I don't think it's hypocritical to criticize the British (not all of them , just those in power, of course) of 800 years ago , and still be perfectly okay with those that are around now.

The only hypocrites are those who hate the present day British people (i.e. the type that would give someone abuse for having an English accent, for example) while wearing a Man U jersey.




To the OP, I get your point, but I think even if we weren't colonised by Britain we would no doubt have had trading partnerships etc, with them and in this way, we would probably have learned English. I'd say we would be bilingual now - I seriously doubt we would have remained an isolated island that only spoke Irish.

Well if my post is anything to go by, the east would definetly have spoken English anyway but people in the west might have taken up Spanish.

devereaux17

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

LOL. How could you possibly want more people on this island? The whole island is ruined with farms everywhere, and our scenic areas are dotted with ugly houses. We have no forests and not many national parks. The place has had too many people on it for too long that's why it's such a boring looking island for the most part, just farm after farm. If we had less people we'd have tonnes of oak forests like the way it used to be. Having a packed country like holland is nothing to be proud of.

too many people????? wtf.

Its one of the least densley populated countries in all of Europe.

brummytom

*Steps very cautiously in to thread*

As an English person, I'm fully expecting my opinion to be torn apart. I must say however, that - and I am in no way defending the actions of the English in Ireland, nor the bigotry my family suffered when they moved over here - but in all honesty, I think that in a strange way, being colonised has given you more of a national identity.
America, Scotland, Ireland etc. were all invaded by the English and much of their populations are now feveruntly proud of being their respective nationality. They rose above the opression.
When I look at English, there is... nor has there been for centuries.. a true English identity. No national figures on a par with Boru, Parnell, O'Connell, Plunkett et. al. For all the horror suffered, I think you came out of it for the better.
Again, I'm not defending the English - what they did was inexcusable, but just my opinion.


*Makes hasty retreat*

devereaux17

i don't think a national identity is that important really but i get what ur saying mate(;) )

dsmythy

devereaux17 wrote: »

too many people????? wtf.

Its one of the least densley populated countries in all of Europe.

And that's what makes us unique. I never understood people's obsession with catching up with other European countries in the population density stakes.

karlog

I for one am glad that english the most widely spoken language in the world is my native language. I'm one of those people who if asked to say hello in irish i wouldn't know what to say back (yes im that bad at languages)

If we all had irish as a native language sure we could learn english but how hard would that be. Not everyone can learn a language and be fluent in it, especially me

Imagining having to go to watching blockbuster movies with irish subtitles makes me physically sick

Nearly every other country in the world uses english as a secondary language i think were so lucky that its are primary

P.C.

Lu Tze wrote: »

the OP missed out the best arguement, we can holiday in all the other former british colonies without having to carry a travel adapter for the plugs

You have not left Ireland then.

dsmythy

karlog wrote: »

I for one am glad that english the most widely spoken language in the world is my native language. I'm one of those people who if asked to say hello in irish i wouldn't know what to say back (yes im that bad at languages)

If we all had irish as a native language sure we could learn english but how hard would that be. Not everyone can learn a language and be fluent in it, especially me

Imagining having to go to watching blockbuster movies with irish subtitles makes me physically sick

Nearly every other country in the world uses english as a secondary language i think were so lucky that its are primary

As the saying goes; Optimists learn English for the future. Pessimists learn Chinese.

devereaux17

dsmythy wrote: »

And that's what makes us unique. I never understood people's obsession with catching up with other European countries in the population density stakes.

well its good that we have beutiful areas like the west of ireland but it sucks when you only have one real city(which is where i live)

dsmythy

devereaux17 wrote: »

well its good that we have beutiful areas like the west of ireland but it sucks when you only have one real city(which is where i live)

Well i've no problem with expanding cities and big towns. Dundalk, Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Galway, Sligo, Kilkenny and Limerick, all at the expense of Dublin. Maybe also a new urban zone in the Athlone/Mullingar/Tullamore triangle. All to cope with natural growth but not just for the sake of increasing our population density.

waitinforatrain

candlegrease wrote: »

........that we are very fortunate the English colonised us for hundreds of years.* If it never happened we would still be speaking Irish exclusively, not that I have a problem with that, but without English we would be completely shut off from the outside world, our economy would never have got going at all due to the language barrier, and the whole country would generally be an awful lot worse off.

I actually just can't believe that Irish people are so filthily obsessed with money and hold it in the highest regard over all other things.

All the people that suffered and died so that you don't have to live under an oppressive, imperialist, elitist ruling class, was it just so you could sit on your fat greedy arse?

Besides, know your enemy. It wasn't the English or Welsh or Scottish that who invaded us, but the upper class "British"

g5fd6ow0hseima

waitinforatrain wrote: »

I actually just can't believe that Irish people are so filthily obsessed with money and hold it in the highest regard over all other things.

All the people that suffered and died so that you don't have to live under an oppressive, imperialist, elitist ruling class, was it just so you could sit on your fat greedy arse?

Besides, know your enemy. It wasn't the English or Welsh or Scottish that who invaded us, but the upper class "British"

The reality is that the Irish would have **** on the British had they had the chance. Your average english person would to me, be far nicer a person than one of us. So many people I know would **** over their friend for a few pound, and yet we go on about the brits ****ing us over so many centuries ago....

Jesus Juice

That means I would be getting A's in Irish!!!

Acacia

Carlee Proud Stork wrote: »

The reality is that the Irish would have **** on the British had they had the chance. Your average english person would to me, be far nicer a person than one of us. So many people I know would **** over their friend for a few pound, and yet we go on about the brits ****ing us over so many centuries ago....

We learned from the best...

Dudess

Carlee Proud Stork wrote: »

The reality is that the Irish would have **** on the British had they had the chance.

The "reality"?

Your average english person would to me, be far nicer a person than one of us.

What the ****? "One of us"? You don't know all of us. Listen, some Irish people are assholes, some English people are assholes. In the case of both nationalities, most are ok. It's a pattern you'll find repeated throughout the world.

So many people I know would **** over their friend for a few pound, and yet we go on about the brits ****ing us over so many centuries ago....

So a lot of people you know would **** over their friend for a few pound... and that's not because they're people of poor morals but because they're Irish?
And some Irish people (not "we") do go on about the Brits ****ing us over but it wasn't "so many centuries ago" - it was up to well under a century ago.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Typical boards.ie west-brit nonsense tbf

What do you actually think "west-brit" means? And how is it "typical" of Boards.ie? I'd have thought there wasn't really a "typical Boards.ie" attitude, just various ones.

DublinWriter

brummytom wrote: »

When I look at English, there is... nor has there been for centuries.. a true English identity. No national figures on a par with Boru, Parnell, O'Connell, Plunkett et. al. For all the horror suffered, I think you came out of it for the better.

The English don't even have their own national holiday or regional parliment...now there's oppression for you!

I find most comparative nationality arguments to be totally circular in nature, e.g. We suffered more....no we suffered more...etc etc. Don't forget that Ireland was conducing slave-raids in Cumbria for the greater part of the mediaeval age.

All in all, it's basically an argument between two fleas about which is the better part of the dog they reside on.

devereaux17

in kev ps3's mind i think he believes tolerance and stuff like that are the signs of a 'west-brit' on top of someone who believes Ireland is better off that the UK colonised us.

also if u say your not proud of ireland that also makes u somehow a west brit even tho the uk has nothin to do with it.

The irony of the language shift was that as soon as most of those that learned English in the 19th century immediately emmigrated. The English language was at that time a ticket to "a better life".

Had it not being for that, it's quite likely that Irish would have remained the dominant language of the "working class*" or peasants.

Followed by a rapid reverse language shift after independance, with English as the second language spoken by a minority (the opposite of today's situation)

*(I hate that expression, just not sure what the best adjective is to describe the general population as opposed to the ruling classes)


/Retires to air raid shelter.....

Paddo81

brummytom wrote: »

*Steps very cautiously in to thread*

As an English person, I'm fully expecting my opinion to be torn apart. I must say however, that - and I am in no way defending the actions of the English in Ireland, nor the bigotry my family suffered when they moved over here - but in all honesty, I think that in a strange way, being colonised has given you more of a national identity.
America, Scotland, Ireland etc. were all invaded by the English and much of their populations are now feveruntly proud of being their respective nationality. They rose above the opression.
When I look at English, there is... nor has there been for centuries.. a true English identity. No national figures on a par with Boru, Parnell, O'Connell, Plunkett et. al. For all the horror suffered, I think you came out of it for the better.
Again, I'm not defending the English - what they did was inexcusable, but just my opinion.


*Makes hasty retreat*

I disagree. The kind of patriotic fervour that you see from, the Scots and the Welsh for example, is different to that of modern day Ireland and America. And its for the explicit reason that those countries are still united to England in a united kingdom. Their national identity exits in many ways to differenciate themselves from England. Theres always this "Us against the English" atitude.
Whereas the US and Ireland (at this stage) are proud of their respective heritages for what they are. Theres still a post colonial anger from older Irish people who remember being told about the bad old days in Ireland by their parents, but for most young Irish people, being Irish and being proud of your heritage doesnt really involve a healthy dislike for the "English opressor"

devereaux17

i like that post and i agree.

Shane_C

brummytom wrote: »

When I look at English, there is... nor has there been for centuries.. a true English identity. No national figures on a par with Boru, Parnell, O'Connell, Plunkett et. al. For all the horror suffered, I think you came out of it for the better.

From experience I have found patriotism in english people is rooted in pride in their history (as in all other nations), which is nothing to be proud of.
Also there is empathy to our ancestors to consider (which i think is the pivotal flaw in the OP's argument).
I would give up my english, all my national pride, holidays and national figures if it meant millions of irish people hadn't died needlessly over a period of half a millennium.

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

The place has had too many people.

What are you comparing Ireland to?
We are one of the least populated habitable nations in the world. We are the best of a bad bunch......the bad bunch being the WORLD!!

karlog wrote: »

If we all had irish as a native language sure we could learn english but how hard would that be. Not everyone can learn a language and be fluent in it, especially me

You would pick it up. I am in the same boat as you when it comes to languages but once you get an interest it becomes a lot easier

Carlee Proud Stork wrote: »

So many people I know would **** over their friend for a few pound.

I do not want to know any of your friends .

This not an Irish trait, or a European trait but a human trait.

T-K-O

We have a winner, dumbest thread ever.

The fact that we are so close to the UK there is no doubt we would all speak fluent English.

devereaux17

well northern french people don't speak english fluently and their even closer, so i don't think all of us would, the younger generations like in sweden and norway would probably though.

maby over time different regions would have had different languages, as i mentioned earlier people in the west would have dealt with spanish traders more than british so their need to know spanish for example would have been much higher than someone from the east of the country.

T-K-O

Obviously we are a small nation, the comparison with the French doesn't really work, IMO we would be more like the dutch and they are probably the best English speakers in Europe, as a second language of course.

whadabouchasir

T-K-O wrote: »

IMO we would be more like the dutch and they are probably the best English speakers in Europe, as a second language of course.

And they have the coolest accent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

T-K-O

whadabouchasir wrote: »

And they have the coolest accent.

Its pretty cool alright - anyone remember the two cops from hale and pace

Húrin

candlegrease wrote: »

3. I know we wouldn't be completely banjaxed, but the whole colonisation thing definitely helped.

Think about this. As with all colonies, the colonising country extracted a good chunk of our economic production. In contemporary terms, the British Empire was taking out (say) 10% of our GDP, ecah year, every year, for centuries. If they weren't getting out more than they were putting in they wouldn't have bothered.

Shane_C

whadabouchasir wrote: »

And they have the coolest accent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

I dunno, Shmokenapancake anyone?