Should we have bi-lingual road signs

Pineapple stu

No - English placenames only everywhere

getz wrote: »

as irelands second largest industry is tourism,and most tourists who come over to ireland speak a little english, dosent anyone think that irish only signs may well be a backward step ?i know that in wales its becoming a big problem,very much a north wales/south wales divide,

There is No problem with it in Wales.

Richard

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

topper75 wrote: »

They are not translations.

Some of them are.

Irlpol

http://www.photopol.com/signs/bta_cymru.html

IIMII

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Deleted User wrote: »

..Paris is spelt the same in french, just pronunces Parie).
If so when can we expect to see the sign to "Galliv".

When Paris is spelt Parie. Many English people pronounce the English form of Irish placenames like the English form of Droichead Átha arse-ways (Drog-eda being the most common in this instance), so there is little point in altering it in Gaelic for them as they'll still pronounce it like Phil Mitchell even when using their own version in English

Yes - different fonts

What I am referring to is the use of the phonetic (transliterations) spelling out of Irish placenames on the signs (for English speakers) the signs are still bi-lingual.

Here is an example from Cyprus where they have replaced all the Anglicised names with ones that sound like the original Greek ones.

Limssol is now Lemesos for example, Nicosia is now Lefosa (sp)etc

Irlpol

sorry,i a am supposed to know better ,would you lke a bit of lanky ?ee by gum and all that

Getz: you must have copied the incorrect version from somewhere. Do tell.

Alun: even if it is a makey-up name, it is always good for illustrating a point and also draws tourists to the railway station and the adjoining commercial mall. Particularly now that the new motorway definitively bypasses the village.

As far as our own "Irish" English language names are concerned. The 1837 OS transposed a lot of Irish language names into gobbledygook English. It would be nice to retrieve some of the originals.

Of course the new housing estates would have to stay in English, unless they are public housing, in which case, the local authority will already have burdened them with promoting our Fenian/IRA heritage "as Gaeilge".

:P

L1011

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

Irlpol wrote: »

As far as our own "Irish" English language names are concerned. The 1837 OS transposed a lot of Irish language names into gobbledygook English. It would be nice to retrieve some of the originals.

For the most part, we have. There aren't many places left with completely made up English transliterations. Kildrought down the road is Celbridge, Mostrim has even vanished off Irish Rail's routes...

Richard

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

MYOB wrote: »

For the most part, we have. There aren't many places left with completely made up English transliterations. Kildrought down the road is Celbridge, Mostrim has even vanished off Irish Rail's routes...

Hang on, isn't Mostrim an alternative English-language name for Edgeworthstown, which had been derived from an Irish name?

Richard

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

IIMII wrote: »

When Paris is spelt Parie.

But it isn't. And many European languages have alternative names for places not in their country e.g. Londres, Edimbourg, Dublino and Aix-la-chappelle (Aachen). What's the problem?

Calina

Guys,

Please remember that this is about actual signposting. Anything else is off topic. "Off topic" includes discussions about translation versus transliteration. Infractions will ensue if this is ignored again.

IIMII

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Deleted User wrote: »

What I am referring to is the use of the phonetic (transliterations) spelling out of Irish placenames on the signs (for English speakers) the signs are still bi-lingual.

Here is an example from Cyprus where they have replaced all the Anglicised names with ones that sound like the original Greek ones.

Limssol is now Lemesos for example, Nicosia is now Lefosa (sp)etc

Droichead Átha
Drogheda

Drogheda is already a phonetic version of Droichead Átha. I don't think we should add another line to the signs. Unless you are talking about replacing the Gaelic language with a form of English language based phonetic text speak?

IIMII

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Richard wrote: »

But it isn't. And many European languages have alternative names for places not in their country e.g. Londres, Edimbourg, Dublino and Aix-la-chappelle (Aachen). What's the problem?

But are the people of France willing to change their languages spelling to match that of the English language - ie change their signs to read Parie so that their pronunciation matches English spelling

The OP wants to change Gaelic signposts to English spelling, my point is that the French are unlikely to change their spelling to use English phonetics, as what will emerge will be a problem whereby whilst the Anglocised spelling will make sense to English ears that know how the French pronounce those placenames in French, it will create a completely different sounding name once the Anglicised spealling is read back into French

English itself is a linguistic puddle with all sorts of quirky oddities, with a bit of French, German, Greek and whatever you are having yourself thrown in. English whilst widely spoken, is hardly a standard par excellence in language terms

murphaph

I just have a quick input on this one related to a trip myself and the girlfriend took yesterday.

We took a spin from Berlin down the A113->A13->A15->B115 to Goerlitz in Saxony, right by the polish border. On the Bundestrasse element (B115 bit) on the way down you pass through a bilingual region called Sorbia, where they speak a slavic language called Sorbian.

The only comment I will make is that my girlfriend (german, can obviously read german at high speed) really struggled to make out any information from the various ADS's (particularly th roundabouts) and she simply said to me "there's too much text on these signs and you end up reading nothing by the time you've passed them". I had to agree-a wall of black on yellow text.

The Welsh sytem must be even worse-at least in Sorbia they use a slightly smaller font for the minority language.

getz

Irlpol wrote: »

Getz: you must have copied the incorrect version from somewhere. Do tell.

Alun: even if it is a makey-up name, it is always good for illustrating a point and also draws tourists to the railway station and the adjoining commercial mall. Particularly now that the new motorway definitively bypasses the village.

As far as our own "Irish" English language names are concerned. The 1837 OS transposed a lot of Irish language names into gobbledygook English. It would be nice to retrieve some of the originals.

Of course the new housing estates would have to stay in English, unless they are public housing, in which case, the local authority will already have burdened them with promoting our Fenian/IRA heritage "as Gaeilge".

:P

i looked at my irish surname and found out its origninal irish spelling, about 16 letters in it ,so i am thinking many irish place names would be the same ,unpronounceable and if the names are shortened wouldent this be a bastardisation of the irish language?-look how i have cocked up the english one

Calina

I'm locking this thread.

There are two in thread warnings to discuss signposts not linguistics. They've been both ignored.

Calina

OP has requested I re-open this thread. I am doing so on the single condition that if there are any more off topic posts regarding the transliteration of Irish, the place of Irish in Irish society and personal assessments of other people's ability to speak languages other than English this thread will close again. Bans will also be applied even with a thread closure.

There are two moderation warnings to this effect on the thread already. This is the last warning.

This is a signposting discussion, not a language politics discussion. Make sure you stay on topic.

Yes - different fonts

This Greek cypriot sign is a very good example of how a bi-lingual sign should look, easy for greek speakers and for english speaker to understand the placenames without having to know greek (looks over shoulder).

I see no reason why Irish bilingual signs can't be the same.

Calina

Yes - different fonts

Calina wrote: »

OP has requested I re-open this thread. I am doing so on the single condition that if there are any more off topic posts regarding the transliteration of Irish, the place of Irish in Irish society and personal assessments of other people's ability to speak languages other than English this thread will close again. Bans will also be applied even with a thread closure.

There are two moderation warnings to this effect on the thread already. This is the last warning.

This is a signposting discussion, not a language politics discussion. Make sure you stay on topic.

I have started a thread in the Gaeilge forum to discuss the merits of translation, transliteration etc.

Hopefully that will allow this one to be for the signs format, fonts etc only.

Pineapple stu

No - English placenames only everywhere

Irlpol wrote: »

http://www.photopol.com/signs/bta_cymru.html

I think they failed to get the joke in that one.

IIMII

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Deleted User wrote: »

This Greek cypriot sign is a very good example of how a bi-lingual sign should look, easy for greek speakers and for english speaker to understand the placenames without having to know greek (looks over shoulder).

I see no reason why Irish bilingual signs can't be the same.

You mean Greek with an Anglicised version below it? Isn't that what we have? The Gaelic name with an anglicised version below it. I take it you want to revamp the Irish language to an English standard? Because if that is what you mean, you would have to scrap the Greek alphabet on the the signs in the photo, and work it to English phonetics. The Greeks will be delighted with your cultural imperialism.

IIMII

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

cymro wrote: »

I think they failed to get the joke in that one.

What does it translate as? Would you have the name with spaces between words?

IIMII

Yes - different fonts

IIMII wrote: »

You mean Greek with an Anglicised version below it? Isn't that what we have? The Gaelic name with an anglicised version below it. I take it you want to revamp the Irish language to an English standard? Because if that is what you mean, you would have to scrap the Greek alphabet on the the signs in the photo, and work it to English phonetics. The Greeks will be delighted with your cultural imperialism.

I mean the exact opposite, but translituration is OT here now follow the thread in Gaeilge forum.
[OT]
The Irish name remains the same but the english text is made to sound like the Irish pronunciation.
[/OT]

The sign I showed is just as an example of how its done elsewhere.

Calina

IIMII this thread is about how bilingual signs might be laid out, not about how transliteration will be done. There are three warnings in this thread to that effect now.

The next time you argue the toss on anything that goes beyond the positioning of two languages on road signs you will be banned. Do I make myself clear?

IIMII

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Calina, work away. My point is the signs are grand, are bilingual etc. Do you understand?