Should we have bi-lingual road signs

The debate as to whether we should have bi-lingual road signs has risen again.

tfitzgerald

no we should just have the signs in irish

mike65

Has it?

Bi-lingual in which sense, a return to Gheill sli painted on the road?

L1011

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

If we're to have them bilingual, they should be bilingual EVERYWHERE. We've two official languages and we shouldn't be able to pretend the most used one doesn't exist in certain areas - particularly those where we get the laughable situation of 95% of business (or more) having solely English signage while there are Irish language only road signs. Barna and Dungloe come to mind.

mike65

Ah but the langauge fascists in every Gaeltacht area would be up in arms if you suggest true parity. They aren't interested in that sort of thing.

Judgement Day

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

NO! - It would be another waste of limited resources. Every time that I pick up a bilingual Govt/Local authority/semi-state document I see red. It is a waste of money (paper + printing), environmentally wasteful on the same basis and, in this age of print-on-demand, unnecessary! :mad:

Random

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

We should have English roadsigns only.

This doesn't mean I think we should take down all the old roadsigns, we should just print the new ones in English and over the years the Irish will phase it's way out.

Run_to_da_hills

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Bring back the imperial sign posts.

Breezer

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Absolutely. But it'd be nice if the county councils learned to spell the Irish (and in some cases the English) place names.

louth87

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Absolutely fine as they are, now way should they be only one or the other. only problem in Ireland is a complete lack of roadsigns in the first place!

Breezer

Yes - different fonts

Breezer wrote: »

A prize will be awarded to the person who can, in 10 words or less, explain how 'Dick' is short for 'Richard.' .

Richard's nickname is Rick and Rick's rhyming nickname is Dick

Colm R

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Deleted User wrote: »

Richard's nickname is Rick and Rick's rhyming nickname is Dick

I once saw an anti drink driving sign in Cork. It went like this.

Dick drank
Dick drove
Dick died
Don't be a Richard

Colm R

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

On topic, I am happy with the way the signs are. Weird, but I'm a little proud of it really.

I think the issue though is consistency, or rather the lack of it, when it comes to road signs.

KTRIC

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

The street signs in Ireland are a joke. If you're in an unfamiliar area you have to look at the corners of all the buildings to see the street signs , this is dangerous when driving.

Most other countries have them on the street corner.

topper75

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Another bilingual region I am familiar with, Catalonia, uses same font and colour for Catalan and Spanish. Works well and provides parity. Can't see why they did what they did here with the different fonts. They probably just see Gaeilge as a hertige thing and have no ambitions for it to be restored as an everyday language of the people.

I agree that the real issue though is lack of signage and I totally support the poster who suggested signing streetnames on the corners rather than on buildings.

Breezer

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

topper75 wrote: »

I agree that the real issue though is lack of signage and I totally support the poster who suggested signing streetnames on the corners rather than on buildings.

+1. I'm actually just back from Germany and the difference it makes is unbelievable.

Cheeble

Doesn't this debate belong in the Gaeilge (Irish) forum?

KTRIC

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Cheeble wrote: »

Doesn't this debate belong in the Gaeilge (Irish) forum?

not unless we are going to continue as Gaeilge.

Sponge Bob

What debate ?? Someone publishing a poll is not a debate , it is a poll.

Leave them in Irish Only .

murphaph

There's an obvious option missing from the poll:

Irish signage only in Gaeltacht areas (already in place, albeit with the horrible italics) and english signage only in english speaking areas.

I can cope with An Spideal or Na Forbacha etc. so I'm sure the irish speakers (who also all speak english fluently-more than can be said for my irish) can cope with Dublin and Cork without requiring Ath Cliath and Corcaigh translations (yes of course the english names are actually translations from irish but newsflash-99% of the country does NOT refer to these places in irish).

If we introduced this we could also dispense with crappy italics in the Gaeltach and give the irish signage there an appearance becoming of an area where irish is actually the primary language. We could also scrap the use of all capitals on the signage in the english speaking parts and have a common font (mixed case font of some sort, easier to read hence the UK/US/Germany etc. all use mixed case fonts).

Calina

Gruffalo is on holiday from Commuting and Transport for a week.

Any further off topic posting from here on out - that is anything other than the place of Irish on a roadsign will result in a 7 day ban. Off topic includes individuals linguistic abilities or the place of Irish in general in society or the semantics of native versus mother language. If this thread gets any more fractious it will be closed.

OP I don't know where this debate has arisen again. Perhaps before issuing your poll you could perhaps have linked to where this debate has arisen.

The rest of you should bear in mind that I'm not afraid to close down discussions that descend into puerile name calling.

Calina

Yes - different fonts

Calina wrote: »

OP I don't know where this debate has arisen again. Perhaps before issuing your poll you could perhaps have linked to where this debate has arisen.

From "poor road signage pictures"

G_R

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

i agree with the idea of Irish signs in Gaeltachct areas and English Signs everywhere else.

its a waste of ink, metal and time having them dual languages. I mean, can anyone honestly say that while driving along the road, say to them selves ah Ath Cliath is only another 30km away???? And if for some bizarre reason someone does, then im sure it wont kill them to read the signs as bearla.

dannym08

Yes - different fonts

dannym08 wrote: »

i agree with the idea of Irish signs in Gaeltachct areas and English Signs everywhere else.

its a waste of ink, metal and time having them dual languages. I mean, can anyone honestly say that while driving along the road, say to them selves ah Ath Cliath is only another 30km away???? And if for some bizarre reason someone does, then im sure it wont kill them to read the signs as bearla.

Irish language studants. while they try to remember the Irish for 30!

fh041205

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

Breezer wrote: »

Absolutely. But it'd be nice if the county councils learned to spell the Irish (and in some cases the English) place names.

Absolutely. It would also be nice if they researched the irish placename instead of making it up.

L1011

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

fh041205 wrote: »

Absolutely. It would also be nice if they researched the irish placename instead of making it up.

Problem with researching it is that the Ordnance Survey have usually made up something far worse! Wasn't that long ago that there was an "Innfield" on the N4 on most maps...

Pineapple stu

No - English placenames only everywhere

It works fine in Wales so why not here?

Sponge Bob

Welsh place names are frequently very very long , you cannot expect the average Irish civil servant to hold their attention over words longer than 20 letters .

This , of course, would be an interesting test for some of them as part of an Bord Snip

Micilin Muc

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

A report on bilingual road signs by Rain Design Partners was commissioned by Conradh na Gaeilge.

I haven't seen this report yet but I believe that it's conclusions are that the current design of road signs in Ireland was not designed with international best practice in mind.

There are numerous factors that go in to the design of bilingual road signs: road-safety and colour-blindness being two of them. I'll try and get my hands on a copy and will post a link.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

I've seen the rain design report and the author of that report has some of his ideas on his design blog at http://www.garrettreil.ie/.

Some of his observations apply equally to legibility of the English on our signs as well as the Irish. Basically he concludes that, it's a well known fact that Italics indicate something secondary - not acceptable under Official Languages Act. Italics themselves are hard to read and make the Irish illegible. English in caps makes the ENGLISH less legible. The fonts used are far from ideal.

He concludes, regardless of English v. Irish debate the signs in this country are very very difficult to read which results in the last minute dangerous decisions been taken by road users. He's designed a new font, specifically for Irish Road signs, called "Turas" which is specifically designed to enhance legibility of Irish and English. He proposes the first language (Irish) be in yellow and the second language be in White, equal weight, same font.


In my opinion there is no debate on the issue. The constitution and Official Languages Act are clear that Irish is the first language. Anything issued by government (including local authorities which have authority for road signs) must be (A) IN IRISH ONLY or (B) IN IRISH WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION. There is no ability to have English only signs. Also, Irish must appear first, and must be at least be as legible as the English, ie, no italics, no abbreviations. At the moment, there is an exemption for road signs in the act, though this is time-limited. The chance of this legislation being revoked/amended is virtually non existent due to our obligations under EU legislation, where Irish is an official language. (See case of Teacher vrs. Ireland re. warnings on tobacco products, the EU forced the government to have bilingual warnings in both official languages of the territory). Official status at EU level will not be revoked because some Irish people have reservations over the cost of implementation.


So, the debate is moot, but as Garrett Reil says, we should look at this as an opportunity to get our signs up to scratch in all regards, and not just as an exercise for the national language.

On a personal note, people consistently point to the cost of implementation... The reason cost will be inflated is due to the negligence of government after government in this country. This work was already done on a phased basis from 1922 and through peoples ineptitude and lack of legislation, it was allowed to fall back. The Official Languages Act means we will [be forced] to do this once, we will do it correctly, and we will only pay once. Costs will be reduced by this legislation.

Question: If there was a constitutional referendum tomorrow on article 8, would Irish people vote to remove Irish as the first language? I seriously doubt it. In which case, we need to finally get the thumb out and implement something which we supposedly support.

-jp

Micilin Muc

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, same colour

jamesnp wrote: »

He's designed a new font, specifically for Irish Road signs, called "Turas" which is specifically designed to enhance legibility of Irish and English. He proposes the first language (Irish) be in yellow and the second language be in White, equal weight, same font.

The new font looks great. I wonder how open the Minister for Transport is to using Garrett's ideas.

IRLConor

Not too long ago I was in Finland where they have two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. Swedish is the native language of ~5-6% of the population.

The way they do their roadsigns is based on the blend of native speakers of each language in each municipality (using census data). Municipalities which are monolingual have signs in that language only and municipalities which are bilingual have signs in both languages.

For a municipality to be considered bilingual, 8% or more of the population needs to speak the minority language. IIRC it's pretty rare for the population to change significantly enough for the status to change and when it does then the municipality pays for the signage change out of local taxes.

Why can't we do that? (Apart from the lack of any meaningful local taxation to pay for the signage changes but we need to solve that problem anyway.)

Aard

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

jamesnp wrote: »

Question: If there was a constitutional referendum tomorrow on article 8, would Irish people vote to remove Irish as the first language? I seriously doubt it. In which case, we need to finally get the thumb out and implement something which we supposedly support.

All my schooling has been through Irish (including playschool). I'd consider myself fluent. I love the language, and wish its speakers all the best with its revival/survival. However, were there a referendum tomorrow, I'd more than likely vote to remove Irish as the first language of the state.

I've been thinking about this recently. The best solution I've come up with is to do a Switzerland on it and have a federal state. There would be 4 autonomous regions: Greater Dublin, the South, Border-Midlands-West, and the Gaeltachts. Each region chooses its own official language, by referendum. More than likely the former three would choose English, and the Gaeltachts would choose Irish. Road signs (and other documents) would be paid for by each respective region, so if deemed financially viable then Irish would be used. This would solve the langauge issue, plus a host of other issues, which I will not go into here.

getz

why not just say should ireland road signs ?dammit i am fed up of getting lost

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

IRLConor wrote: »

For a municipality to be considered bilingual, 8% or more of the population needs to speak the minority language. IIRC it's pretty rare for the population to change significantly enough for the status to change and when it does then the municipality pays for the signage change out of local taxes.

Why can't we do that? (Apart from the lack of any meaningful local taxation to pay for the signage changes but we need to solve that problem anyway.)

First, legislation is already in place - the debate is over and the point is moot.

Secondly with 8% as the threshold, every county in the country would still need bilingual signage according to the last census.

And finally, with relation to the last point about "Turas", see the picture below for comparison.


-jp

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Aard wrote: »

I've been thinking about this recently. The best solution I've come up with is to do a Switzerland on it and have a federal state. There would be 4 autonomous regions: Greater Dublin, the South, Border-Midlands-West, and the Gaeltachts. Each region chooses its own official language, by referendum. More than likely the former three would choose English, and the Gaeltachts would choose Irish. Road signs (and other documents) would be paid for by each respective region, so if deemed financially viable then Irish would be used. This would solve the langauge issue, plus a host of other issues, which I will not go into here.

To be honest, that's pretty much what we already have? Each local authority has responsibility for their road signage. I would also imagine that Switzerland has certain central governing rules for signs in all areas. For us, the official languages act is, in effect, only a regulation that each local authority must implement.

-jp

Cionád

Yes - different fonts

jamesnp wrote: »

-jp

That is a great improvement, easy to zone in on the colour you want. My preference anyway.

Alun

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

Cionád wrote: »

That is a great improvement, easy to zone in on the colour you want. My preference anyway.

I have to disagree there. In my own case, for reasons I'm not sure of, but I'm sure there's a physiological reason somewhere, I'm drawn to the yellow text, which just happens to be the one I'm not interested in, so then have to make a conscious decision to move my eye downwards to the white text, wasting valuable time. Surely the whole point of designing road signs properly is that I shouldn't have to consciously 'zone in' on anything.

Road safety requirements trump any other considerations in my opinion, and if having bi-lingual road signs affects that in anyway at all, then they shouldn't be used. (I should point out I'm not Irish, btw).

Cionád

Yes - different fonts

Alun wrote: »

I have to disagree there. In my own case, for reasons I'm not sure of, but I'm sure there's a physiological reason somewhere, I'm drawn to the yellow text, which just happens to be the one I'm not interested in, so then have to make a conscious decision to move my eye downwards to the white text, wasting valuable time. Surely the whole point of designing road signs properly is that I shouldn't have to consciously 'zone in' on anything.

Strange, Im drawn to the white, probably because the road is also in white. I do take your point about zoning in though, its not ideal, but I think its easier to distinuish than the current system.

In any case I'd hate to see the language disappear altogether from non-Ghaeltacht areas. (I'm not a fluent speaker.) I'd prefer Irish-only to English-only, but would prefer bilingual in any case.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Alun wrote: »

I have to disagree there. In my own case, for reasons I'm not sure of, but I'm sure there's a physiological reason somewhere, I'm drawn to the yellow text, which just happens to be the one I'm not interested in, so then have to make a conscious decision to move my eye downwards to the white text, wasting valuable time. Surely the whole point of designing road signs properly is that I shouldn't have to consciously 'zone in' on anything.

Road safety requirements trump any other considerations in my opinion, and if having bi-lingual road signs affects that in anyway at all, then they shouldn't be used. (I should point out I'm not Irish, btw).

With all due respect, this is a bilingual country. Are you suggesting that people who speak Irish should have to learn English simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white? This country's first language is Irish. All around Europe there are examples of societies that have their national language and an extremely high proficiency in English (Netherlands and Sweden are two places I have personal experience with), should they ignore their national languages to to aid foreigners? The attitude of "everyone speaks English anyway"? Absolutely not. The point of bi-lingual road signage is to make sure all sections of our bi-lingual society are able to understand the signs. The differentiation in colour is to aid all people in finding the section of the sign in their particular language. I would contend that you will get used to the signs very quickly.

Let's not forget that legislatively speaking there is absolutely no requirement to have any English on the sign what-so-ever. In your own words "if having bi-lingual road signs affects that [Road safety] in anyway at all, then they shouldn't be used" — Irish only signs are an option?


-jp

gillo_100

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

I agree with Alun, my eyes are naturally drawn to the yellow rather that white. Which makes sense as yellow is more often used as a warning colour and white as an information colour.

And if there is to be one which eyes are more drawn to, i.e. colour and placement (first). Should it not be English considering the fact that the vast majority of road users are going to be refering to English placenames and the point of roadsigns is to get information to the road user in the clearest way.

As regards a referendum to change language, I most certainly would vote to remove Irish as the first language and know a lot of people who also would, even people who appreciate the language and its heritage.

Stark

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

While the one on the right looks more modern and attractive, the one on the left looks clearer imo. Having the road and junction numberings in yellow diverts my attention towards the yellow font, making it more awkward to pick out the English place names in white.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Stark wrote: »

While the one on the right looks more modern and attractive, the one on the left looks clearer imo. Having the road and junction numberings in yellow diverts my attention towards the yellow font, making it more awkward to pick out the English place names in white.

Would you find a Welsh style system easier?

-jp

Yes - different fonts

What do Ortisei, St. Ulrich and Urtijëi have in common?

they are all the same place, in Northern Italy, in the Sud Tirol, it's not uncommon to see place names in 3 languages, Italian the National language, German the regional language, and Laidin the local language.

Nobody seems to have a problem there.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Deleted User wrote: »

What do Ortisei, St. Ulrich and Urtijëi have in common?

they are all the same place, in Northern Italy, in the Sud Tirol, it's not uncommon to see place names in 3 languages, Italian the National language, German the regional language, and Laidin the local language.

Nobody seems to have a problem there.

hear hear!

Alun

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

jamesnp wrote: »

With all due respect, this is a bilingual country. Are you suggesting that people who speak Irish should have to learn English simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white? This country's first language is Irish. All around Europe there are examples of societies that have their national language and an extremely high proficiency in English (Netherlands and Sweden are two places I have personal experience with), should they ignore their national languages to to aid foreigners? The attitude of "everyone speaks English anyway"? Absolutely not. The point of bi-lingual road signage is to make sure all sections of our bi-lingual society are able to understand the signs. The differentiation in colour is to aid all people in finding the section of the sign in their particular language. I would contend that you will get used to the signs very quickly.

Firstly a bit of background ... I'm English originally, but spent 21 years of my adult life in the Netherlands and Germany before moving here 8 years ago, speak Dutch fluently, German almost fluently, and also speak some French, Swedish and even a bit of Russian, so I'm not someone who takes the attitude of 'everyone should speak English' by any means.

Re: your comment about "simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white". It's a well known fact that the human eye is drawn to certain colours more than others, and certain sections of the eye that contain different ratios of cones and rods, have correspondingly more or less difficulty in distinguishing detail in one colour over backgrounds of another. That's why you have to be very careful about colour and background combinations, base their choice on solid scientific principles and not just choose something because it looks nice to you.

Personally, I don't have any strong feelings on the whole Irish language thing one way or another, and don't feel as if I should either. Personally, I have little interest in the language, outside of a little curiosity from a linguistic point of view, since it has no practical use to me in my everyday life, in contrast to my experiences in the Netherlands and Germany. My only concern is in the clarity and readability of the road signs, that's it, and I'm not going to be drawn into a cultural / political argument that's none of my business, or indeed the subject of this thread.

Stark

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

jamesnp wrote: »

Would you find a Welsh style system easier?

-jp

I find the current system easier.

IRLConor

jamesnp wrote: »

First, legislation is already in place - the debate is over and the point is moot.

The legislation may be in place but that hardly closes the debate. If the legislation impedes us from doing the right thing, then we should change the legislation, not just pretend that it's immutable.

jamesnp wrote: »

Secondly with 8% as the threshold, every county in the country would still need bilingual signage according to the last census.

I really doubt that. You reckon 8% of people in every county speak Irish as their first language? Sure, there's more than 8% in each county who can speak but I sincerely doubt that they do.

jamesnp wrote: »

With all due respect, this is a bilingual country. Are you suggesting that people who speak Irish should have to learn English simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white?

With all due respect, are you suggesting that there is anyone on this island who would have to be forced to learn English just for road signs? I really doubt that there's anyone on this island who is monolingually Irish speaking.

I'm not suggesting that we ignore Irish altogether, merely that we recognise that it's very much a minority language and that putting it on road signs in monolingual English-speaking areas will do nothing for increasing its usage.

I'm advocating bilingual signs where they make sense and monolingual signs everywhere else.

getz

as irelands second largest industry is tourism,and most tourists who come over to ireland speak a little english, dosent anyone think that irish only signs may well be a backward step ?i know that in wales its becoming a big problem,very much a north wales/south wales divide,

IRLConor

jamesnp wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

What do Ortisei, St. Ulrich and Urtijëi have in common?

they are all the same place, in Northern Italy, in the Sud Tirol, it's not uncommon to see place names in 3 languages, Italian the National language, German the regional language, and Laidin the local language.

Nobody seems to have a problem there.

hear hear!

Indeed, that's an excellent example of a common sense approach. They put trilingual signs there and monolingual Italian signs in Rome.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Stark wrote: »

I find the current system easier.

The current system is no longer an option.

The sooner a new system is finalised the sooner the local authorities will stop wasting money putting up signs that will need to be ripped down in a few years.

-jp