Should we have bi-lingual road signs

IRLConor

Not too long ago I was in Finland where they have two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. Swedish is the native language of ~5-6% of the population.

The way they do their roadsigns is based on the blend of native speakers of each language in each municipality (using census data). Municipalities which are monolingual have signs in that language only and municipalities which are bilingual have signs in both languages.

For a municipality to be considered bilingual, 8% or more of the population needs to speak the minority language. IIRC it's pretty rare for the population to change significantly enough for the status to change and when it does then the municipality pays for the signage change out of local taxes.

Why can't we do that? (Apart from the lack of any meaningful local taxation to pay for the signage changes but we need to solve that problem anyway.)

Aard

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

jamesnp wrote: »

Question: If there was a constitutional referendum tomorrow on article 8, would Irish people vote to remove Irish as the first language? I seriously doubt it. In which case, we need to finally get the thumb out and implement something which we supposedly support.

All my schooling has been through Irish (including playschool). I'd consider myself fluent. I love the language, and wish its speakers all the best with its revival/survival. However, were there a referendum tomorrow, I'd more than likely vote to remove Irish as the first language of the state.

I've been thinking about this recently. The best solution I've come up with is to do a Switzerland on it and have a federal state. There would be 4 autonomous regions: Greater Dublin, the South, Border-Midlands-West, and the Gaeltachts. Each region chooses its own official language, by referendum. More than likely the former three would choose English, and the Gaeltachts would choose Irish. Road signs (and other documents) would be paid for by each respective region, so if deemed financially viable then Irish would be used. This would solve the langauge issue, plus a host of other issues, which I will not go into here.

getz

why not just say should ireland road signs ?dammit i am fed up of getting lost

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

IRLConor wrote: »

For a municipality to be considered bilingual, 8% or more of the population needs to speak the minority language. IIRC it's pretty rare for the population to change significantly enough for the status to change and when it does then the municipality pays for the signage change out of local taxes.

Why can't we do that? (Apart from the lack of any meaningful local taxation to pay for the signage changes but we need to solve that problem anyway.)

First, legislation is already in place - the debate is over and the point is moot.

Secondly with 8% as the threshold, every county in the country would still need bilingual signage according to the last census.

And finally, with relation to the last point about "Turas", see the picture below for comparison.


-jp

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Aard wrote: »

I've been thinking about this recently. The best solution I've come up with is to do a Switzerland on it and have a federal state. There would be 4 autonomous regions: Greater Dublin, the South, Border-Midlands-West, and the Gaeltachts. Each region chooses its own official language, by referendum. More than likely the former three would choose English, and the Gaeltachts would choose Irish. Road signs (and other documents) would be paid for by each respective region, so if deemed financially viable then Irish would be used. This would solve the langauge issue, plus a host of other issues, which I will not go into here.

To be honest, that's pretty much what we already have? Each local authority has responsibility for their road signage. I would also imagine that Switzerland has certain central governing rules for signs in all areas. For us, the official languages act is, in effect, only a regulation that each local authority must implement.

-jp

Cionád

Yes - different fonts

jamesnp wrote: »

-jp

That is a great improvement, easy to zone in on the colour you want. My preference anyway.

Alun

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

Cionád wrote: »

That is a great improvement, easy to zone in on the colour you want. My preference anyway.

I have to disagree there. In my own case, for reasons I'm not sure of, but I'm sure there's a physiological reason somewhere, I'm drawn to the yellow text, which just happens to be the one I'm not interested in, so then have to make a conscious decision to move my eye downwards to the white text, wasting valuable time. Surely the whole point of designing road signs properly is that I shouldn't have to consciously 'zone in' on anything.

Road safety requirements trump any other considerations in my opinion, and if having bi-lingual road signs affects that in anyway at all, then they shouldn't be used. (I should point out I'm not Irish, btw).

Cionád

Yes - different fonts

Alun wrote: »

I have to disagree there. In my own case, for reasons I'm not sure of, but I'm sure there's a physiological reason somewhere, I'm drawn to the yellow text, which just happens to be the one I'm not interested in, so then have to make a conscious decision to move my eye downwards to the white text, wasting valuable time. Surely the whole point of designing road signs properly is that I shouldn't have to consciously 'zone in' on anything.

Strange, Im drawn to the white, probably because the road is also in white. I do take your point about zoning in though, its not ideal, but I think its easier to distinuish than the current system.

In any case I'd hate to see the language disappear altogether from non-Ghaeltacht areas. (I'm not a fluent speaker.) I'd prefer Irish-only to English-only, but would prefer bilingual in any case.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Alun wrote: »

I have to disagree there. In my own case, for reasons I'm not sure of, but I'm sure there's a physiological reason somewhere, I'm drawn to the yellow text, which just happens to be the one I'm not interested in, so then have to make a conscious decision to move my eye downwards to the white text, wasting valuable time. Surely the whole point of designing road signs properly is that I shouldn't have to consciously 'zone in' on anything.

Road safety requirements trump any other considerations in my opinion, and if having bi-lingual road signs affects that in anyway at all, then they shouldn't be used. (I should point out I'm not Irish, btw).

With all due respect, this is a bilingual country. Are you suggesting that people who speak Irish should have to learn English simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white? This country's first language is Irish. All around Europe there are examples of societies that have their national language and an extremely high proficiency in English (Netherlands and Sweden are two places I have personal experience with), should they ignore their national languages to to aid foreigners? The attitude of "everyone speaks English anyway"? Absolutely not. The point of bi-lingual road signage is to make sure all sections of our bi-lingual society are able to understand the signs. The differentiation in colour is to aid all people in finding the section of the sign in their particular language. I would contend that you will get used to the signs very quickly.

Let's not forget that legislatively speaking there is absolutely no requirement to have any English on the sign what-so-ever. In your own words "if having bi-lingual road signs affects that [Road safety] in anyway at all, then they shouldn't be used" — Irish only signs are an option?


-jp

gillo_100

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

I agree with Alun, my eyes are naturally drawn to the yellow rather that white. Which makes sense as yellow is more often used as a warning colour and white as an information colour.

And if there is to be one which eyes are more drawn to, i.e. colour and placement (first). Should it not be English considering the fact that the vast majority of road users are going to be refering to English placenames and the point of roadsigns is to get information to the road user in the clearest way.

As regards a referendum to change language, I most certainly would vote to remove Irish as the first language and know a lot of people who also would, even people who appreciate the language and its heritage.

Stark

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

While the one on the right looks more modern and attractive, the one on the left looks clearer imo. Having the road and junction numberings in yellow diverts my attention towards the yellow font, making it more awkward to pick out the English place names in white.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Stark wrote: »

While the one on the right looks more modern and attractive, the one on the left looks clearer imo. Having the road and junction numberings in yellow diverts my attention towards the yellow font, making it more awkward to pick out the English place names in white.

Would you find a Welsh style system easier?

-jp

Yes - different fonts

What do Ortisei, St. Ulrich and Urtijëi have in common?

they are all the same place, in Northern Italy, in the Sud Tirol, it's not uncommon to see place names in 3 languages, Italian the National language, German the regional language, and Laidin the local language.

Nobody seems to have a problem there.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Deleted User wrote: »

What do Ortisei, St. Ulrich and Urtijëi have in common?

they are all the same place, in Northern Italy, in the Sud Tirol, it's not uncommon to see place names in 3 languages, Italian the National language, German the regional language, and Laidin the local language.

Nobody seems to have a problem there.

hear hear!

Alun

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

jamesnp wrote: »

With all due respect, this is a bilingual country. Are you suggesting that people who speak Irish should have to learn English simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white? This country's first language is Irish. All around Europe there are examples of societies that have their national language and an extremely high proficiency in English (Netherlands and Sweden are two places I have personal experience with), should they ignore their national languages to to aid foreigners? The attitude of "everyone speaks English anyway"? Absolutely not. The point of bi-lingual road signage is to make sure all sections of our bi-lingual society are able to understand the signs. The differentiation in colour is to aid all people in finding the section of the sign in their particular language. I would contend that you will get used to the signs very quickly.

Firstly a bit of background ... I'm English originally, but spent 21 years of my adult life in the Netherlands and Germany before moving here 8 years ago, speak Dutch fluently, German almost fluently, and also speak some French, Swedish and even a bit of Russian, so I'm not someone who takes the attitude of 'everyone should speak English' by any means.

Re: your comment about "simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white". It's a well known fact that the human eye is drawn to certain colours more than others, and certain sections of the eye that contain different ratios of cones and rods, have correspondingly more or less difficulty in distinguishing detail in one colour over backgrounds of another. That's why you have to be very careful about colour and background combinations, base their choice on solid scientific principles and not just choose something because it looks nice to you.

Personally, I don't have any strong feelings on the whole Irish language thing one way or another, and don't feel as if I should either. Personally, I have little interest in the language, outside of a little curiosity from a linguistic point of view, since it has no practical use to me in my everyday life, in contrast to my experiences in the Netherlands and Germany. My only concern is in the clarity and readability of the road signs, that's it, and I'm not going to be drawn into a cultural / political argument that's none of my business, or indeed the subject of this thread.

Stark

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

jamesnp wrote: »

Would you find a Welsh style system easier?

-jp

I find the current system easier.

IRLConor

jamesnp wrote: »

First, legislation is already in place - the debate is over and the point is moot.

The legislation may be in place but that hardly closes the debate. If the legislation impedes us from doing the right thing, then we should change the legislation, not just pretend that it's immutable.

jamesnp wrote: »

Secondly with 8% as the threshold, every county in the country would still need bilingual signage according to the last census.

I really doubt that. You reckon 8% of people in every county speak Irish as their first language? Sure, there's more than 8% in each county who can speak but I sincerely doubt that they do.

jamesnp wrote: »

With all due respect, this is a bilingual country. Are you suggesting that people who speak Irish should have to learn English simply because you find it difficult to differentiate between yellow and white?

With all due respect, are you suggesting that there is anyone on this island who would have to be forced to learn English just for road signs? I really doubt that there's anyone on this island who is monolingually Irish speaking.

I'm not suggesting that we ignore Irish altogether, merely that we recognise that it's very much a minority language and that putting it on road signs in monolingual English-speaking areas will do nothing for increasing its usage.

I'm advocating bilingual signs where they make sense and monolingual signs everywhere else.

getz

as irelands second largest industry is tourism,and most tourists who come over to ireland speak a little english, dosent anyone think that irish only signs may well be a backward step ?i know that in wales its becoming a big problem,very much a north wales/south wales divide,

IRLConor

jamesnp wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

What do Ortisei, St. Ulrich and Urtijëi have in common?

they are all the same place, in Northern Italy, in the Sud Tirol, it's not uncommon to see place names in 3 languages, Italian the National language, German the regional language, and Laidin the local language.

Nobody seems to have a problem there.

hear hear!

Indeed, that's an excellent example of a common sense approach. They put trilingual signs there and monolingual Italian signs in Rome.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

Stark wrote: »

I find the current system easier.

The current system is no longer an option.

The sooner a new system is finalised the sooner the local authorities will stop wasting money putting up signs that will need to be ripped down in a few years.

-jp

getz

Yes - different fonts

getz wrote: »

as irelands second largest industry is tourism,and most tourists who come over to ireland speak a little english, dosent anyone think that irish only signs may well be a backward step ?i know that in wales its becoming a big problem,very much a north wales/south wales divide,

again I quote the Sud Tirol, the Val Gardena area, ( with signs in 3 languages)

Ortisei - St. Ulrich - Urtijëi

population 5700, It's a big village, bed nights 750,000

http://www.val-gardena.com/en/ortisei-in-val-gardena/page39.html

Putting up signs in 3 languages, doesn't seem to hurt their tourism industry.

jamesnp

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

IRLConor wrote: »

I really doubt that there's anyone on this island who is monolingually Irish speaking.

There's no real data on the subject. Estimates are that there are in the region of about 2,000 - 5,000 people with Irish only. These are mostly in the very young or very old age bracket, though.

I don't understand why there is such opposition to bilingual signage. They are not inherently difficult to understand, they are in use in virtually every country in the world in some form or another. Some countries have trilingual + signage. Why should the two languages of this country not be accommodated?

On the point of tourists: If a good signage system is implemented, most of the meaning should be conveyed in pictogrammes and not language. With regard to place names, a tourist will have a map and can match place names quite easily, regardless of language. If one is going to a Gaeltacht area, modern OSi maps will only list the Irish name, as will the sign = no confusion. Tourists are not stupid. We have all made our way around countries where we do not speak the language.

-jp

astrofool

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

English everywhere, with bi-lingual in gaeltacht areas.

A placename is a placename is a placename, no matter what the language.

getz

astrofool wrote: »

English everywhere, with bi-lingual in gaeltacht areas.

A placename is a placename is a placename, no matter what the language.

you think so ?try reading this one when driving in wales llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwilllcantysiliog, thats the kind of thing that can happens when one goes too pc

Alun

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

getz wrote: »

you think so ?try reading this one when driving in wales llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwilllcantysiliog, thats the kind of thing that can happens when one goes too pc

They shorten that one to Llanfair PG on the signs there IIRC.

Oh and BTW you've misspelt it a bit and missed the 'ogogoch' off the end Should be Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.

topper75

Yes - but with the same font for both languages, different colours

On the question of tourism, what is more interesting for your average European tourist:

- to visit a place exclusively signed in English (just like Canada, US, Aus, UK etc.)

- to visit a place that has English and also its own language

Surely the second place is a more curious and interesting option. Irish is a tourist attraction not a putoff.

I remember crossing into Wales for the first time and enjoying the different flavour on the roadsigns with the odd looking Welsh names. Tourists revel in this.

getz

Alun wrote: »

They shorten that one to Llanfair PG on the signs there IIRC.

Oh and BTW you've misspelt it a bit and missed the 'ogogoch' off the end Should be Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.

sorry,i a am supposed to know better ,would you lke a bit of lanky ?ee by gum and all that

getz

topper75 wrote: »

On the question of tourism, what is more interesting for your average European tourist:

- to visit a place exclusively signed in English (just like Canada, US, Aus, UK etc.)

- to visit a place that has English and also its own language

Surely the second place is a more curious and interesting option. Irish is a tourist attraction not a putoff.

I remember crossing into Wales for the first time and enjoying the different flavour on the roadsigns with the odd looking Welsh names. Tourists revel in this.

canada has a lot of french names, no i dont have a problem with irish road sign names ,just with irish road signs;like the one near new ross is says [;a cute curve;]

G_R

No - Irish placenames only everywhere

the constitution says we have two national languages, irish and english so we have to have signs in english and irish. Personally, i'm in favour of just english out side gaeltachct and bi-lingual in gaeltachct areas. but lets face it, thats not going to happen any time soon.

our roadsigns are in need of a redesign imo. i like the turas idea but not the two colours in their current order. as another poster said i feel drawn towards the yellow, and the same as (im guessing) 99% of others on the roads, i speak English as my main language. I think that the english shoud be in yellow and the irish in white.

getz

look at dublin street names in irish on www.photopol.com good for a laugh