Learner permits driving alone. Enforcement?

Permabear

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messygirl

i stand corrected, i just think it is a really good idea to have some system in place where teenagers learn the importance of driving right from the start,

ztoical

messygirl wrote: »

America has a good system and it means the quality of drivers over there are (so i heard before anyone feels like jumping down my throat) superior to over here.

there is no system, there are about 51 of them. There is no such thing as an american drivers license as each state issues it's own therefore the american standard of driving varies from state to state and in some cases the standard is great and in others it's turely awful. Lived there for several years and saw some fantastic driving and saw some truely scary driving. One friend took her driving test in Washington state and it lasted 15 mins and they never left the test center - just drove around the car park. She's a truely awful driver and I would never get into a car with her driving. In New Jersey you can sit the driving test in about 30 different languages but the road signs are all in english so they are having issues in some areas with drivers not being able to read basic road signs. It's a running joke in new york that if you see a car with yellow plates [ie New Jersey plates] get out of it's way cus they are awful drivers and will run you over. Connecticut seems to have a good standard, any of my friends there who are good drivers all seem to have learned in connecticut.

Driving is a big part of the culture over there as well, hence why they start so young. New York is the only city with a good, affordble 24 hour public transport system. In most other places if you don't drive you can't work, get food, go to school etc etc

alrightcuz

ive lived all over this country and its the f***ers in the flash cars the bmw's the 08 the 09's that cant drive for s**t the only difference is when they crash there ok and when a learner in his 96,97 crashes his car crumbles and people die instead of looking at the death tole and going ahh they were all learners why not start looking at there cars they were driving and seeing what safety grade it has, i bet the next person that dies wont be driveing a 08 ,5 star toyota , geting your 1st car should be like buying ur first house you should get a tax break for ur 1st car or even have a 5 star affordable car

Alanstrainor

Right everybody, i'll only say this once.
There is no need for foul language, it serves no purpose on this forum, any more posts in breech of the charter will result in infractions/warnings.

Alanstrainor

alrightcuz wrote: »

ive lived all over this country and its the f***ers in the flash cars the bmw's the 08 the 09's that cant drive for s**t the only difference is when they crash there ok and when a learner in his 96,97 crashes his car crumbles and people die instead of looking at the death tole and going ahh they were all learners why not start looking at there cars they were driving and seeing what safety grade it has, i bet the next person that dies wont be driveing a 08 ,5 star toyota , geting your 1st car should be like buying ur first house you should get a tax break for ur 1st car or even have a 5 star affordable car

Alrightcuz, Please keep in mind my previous post when posting again.

I've said this before, and i'll say it again. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Having a roof over your head does not compare to driving.
So let me get this straight, everyone should drive a new 5 star NCAP rated car? What happens to the second hand market? And Those 5 stars constantly change as car safety improves, as a car that got 5 stars in 98 would not get 5 stars in 2009.

RSA ADI MARK

well said alanstrainor it's privilege and you have to earn that right by passing you'r test .( And yes i'm an instructor ):D

Wishbone Ash

alrightcuz wrote: »

ive lived all over this country and its the f***ers in the flash cars the bmw's the 08 the 09's that cant drive for s**t

How do you explain that insurance claims are much greater from the younger (and more likely to be learners) age group?

alrightcuz wrote:

geting your 1st car should be like buying ur first house you should get a tax break for ur 1st car

Having adequate shelter is a basic human right - ownership of a car is not.

alrightcuz

you can say what you you want about the second hand car market ,but what kind of car would you have your daughter and son drive,econmonics doesn't save lives good safe cars do,and in the 90's there wasn't as many cars on the roads as there are today and our road infrastructure was totally different, and personly i would have everyone drive a 5 star car i value lives over everything else and as for the driving instructor maybe if ye teach people to drive and not how to past a test ie stop giving them the route it would be a farer test ever notice how people who rent the cars off the learner company for the test never fail!!!!!! 30 an hour is a joke ps im a qualified car/bike mechanic an a quality inspector for a haulage company im also a electronic eng i no the difference between 09 and 90's cars and its a hell of a difference

Alanstrainor

alrightcuz wrote: »

you can say what you you want about the second hand car market ,but what kind of car would you have your daughter and son drive,econmonics doesn't save lives good safe cars do,and in the 90's there wasn't as many cars on the roads as there are today and our road infrastructure was totally different, and personly i would have everyone drive a 5 star car i value lives over everything else and as for the driving instructor maybe if ye teach people to drive and not how to past a test ie stop giving them the route it would be a farer test ever notice how people who rent the cars off the learner company for the test never fail!!!!!! 30 an hour is a joke ps im a qualified car/bike mechanic an a quality inspector for a haulage company im also a electronic eng i no the difference between 09 and 90's cars and its a hell of a difference

Where to start?
If i had an infinite amount of money to spend on a car of course i would buy the safest car for my son/daughter to learn in. But i don't, and to expect the government to foot the bill in this economic climate is quite frankly, insane. 5 star ratings doesn't mean you're guaranteed to survive in a crash either, once you get above 80km/h you can forget your 5 stars, it's just not going to end well.
I would love to see some statistics on your claim that those who rent driving school cars NEVER fail. Infact i would say that you're no more or less likely to pass/fail in an instructors car.
As for the price of lessons, as an instructor, you have to pay tremendous amounts on getting qualified, paying for a car, running costs of the car, insurance, tax etc so €30 is not very much.
My point about the difference between a car built in 99 and one built in 09 was to do with you saying everyone should drive a 5 star rated car. The 5 stars really means nothing after a few years, i believe a yaris was a 5 star car in 99, but the same car built in 99 put through todays test would not get 5 stars, as the general standard in car safety has risen enormously.

Cabaal

Its a false economy to assume that your 100% safe just because your driving a 5 star safety rated car, ultimately it comes down to it being your job to drive in a safe and reasonable manner and if you can't then you should not be driving.

Further to this cars cost money, between fuel, tax, insurance, garage work etc they are expensive things to own and if you can't afford to run one you shouldn't have one, you can't expect another person or the government for that matter to fund a car for you,.

Owning and driving a car is not some sort of human right in fairness

Raskolnikov

It's amazing just how often the law is being flouted.

A middle-aged relative of mine was stopped while I was in the car. She was asked to produce her licence, to my horror, she produced a ten year expired provisional licence. Garda simply lets her off with a warning that she needs to get a new learner permit, without even mentioning the fact she was unaccompanied.

Another time, I saw a woman with two kids in the back take over ten atempts to get her Micra into parking space with acres of room. You guessed it, another L plater. I couldn't believe that someone with such a basic lack of driving comprehension would put herself behind a wheel.

alrightcuz

a 98 toyota would have a 3 star rate and 09 would have a 5 star rate, a 98 civic would have 2 stars and a 09 would have a 5 star rate,, the major improvements in cars have been the design if a 98 car hit a pedestrian at any speed that person is in serious trouble if 09 hits a pedestrian the car is designed to spread out the impact minamizeing the damage making it safer for the pedestrian,so is less likely to be seriously hurt,,, the result of this is any kind of a tip the car has to be repaired thats why insurance clams have gone up as the old saying goes they dont make um like they used to,,,, they make them safer, and back to the point at hand the hole system is out dated after 5 years everyone should be retested after all its only the learners causing the crashes so no one should have a problem. id say a 98% fail rate myself the 2% are the learners

Spiritoftheseventies

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm being told that the cops aren't really too interested in enforcing the new legislation.

Can anyone confirm this?

Even and consistant enforcement must be the only way to ensure maximum compliance surely?

seen loads of learner drivers on their own. and saw a learner driver overtake around three cars on a county stretch around a fortnight ago.

BrigR

Is every unaccompanied driver in a car with L plates really a Learner Driver? We, and I'm sure lots of other families, have sticky L plates that stay on the car no matter who drives it. So the unaccompanied driver is actually the one that holds the full license. I only know one family- recently returned from the UK- that uses magnetic L plates and go through the trouble of fastening them every time the Learner Driver takes over!

Spiritoftheseventies

BrigR wrote: »

Is every unaccompanied driver in a car with L plates really a Learner Driver? We, and I'm sure lots of other families, have sticky L plates that stay on the car no matter who drives it. So the unaccompanied driver is actually the one that holds the full license. I only know one family- recently returned from the UK- that uses magnetic L plates and go through the trouble of fastening them every time the Learner Driver takes over!

no but a lot of them are

P.C.

BrigR wrote: »

Is every unaccompanied driver in a car with L plates really a Learner Driver? We, and I'm sure lots of other families, have sticky L plates that stay on the car no matter who drives it. So the unaccompanied driver is actually the one that holds the full license. I only know one family- recently returned from the UK- that uses magnetic L plates and go through the trouble of fastening them every time the Learner Driver takes over!

That is the correct way of doing it.

How am I to know if it is a learner driver driving, or a driver with a full licence (and 20 years experience) driving.

When I see 'L' plates in a car, I assume it is a learner driver.

alrightcuz

just because you passed the test doesn't make you a good driver and doesn't mean that, that's it your finished. driving is on going it only takes one stupid mistake,ive been in cars with learners who failed there test and are very good drivers and ive been in cars with fully licensed people who have been qualified 4-5 years and ive actually feared for my life any bit of open road and there off,

Mena

Well, from an enforcement point-of-view, apparently there have already been 6000 fines issued, according to an article in the Independent.

The Independent wrote:

THOUSANDS of learner drivers face having to pay fines of up to €1,000 after being caught driving alone or without having an 'L' plate displayed.

The Irish Independent can reveal that gardai have caught almost 6,000 provisional licence holders breaking tough new laws introduced on July 1 last year.

I note the "of up to €1000.00" fines... I thought the minimum was €1000.00?

John Mason

I bought my OH plastic plates taht you wet and stick them to the window, so i can take off easy.

i forgot to take them off one morning going to work. i had an horrendous journey into work. i was shaking by the time i got in.

i had cars so close to me, they were pratically sitting in the car with me, the mil-second the lights changed cars were beeping, one nut job kept trying to over-take me on a very road which only had enough space for car.

i only realised later in the day when i was getting something from the booth that the L's were still up - the attitude of road users is shocking

i can tell you, i never forgot to take the L's down again.

it was normal service after i took the L's down

this country really should be ashamed of themselves

Sunjammer

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

i had cars so close to me, they were pratically sitting in the car with me, the mil-second the lights changed cars were beeping, one nut job kept trying to over-take me on a very road which only had enough space for car.

i only realised later in the day when i was getting something from the booth that the L's were still up - the attitude of road users is shocking

i can tell you, i never forgot to take the L's down again.

it was normal service after i took the L's down

this country really should be ashamed of themselves

I though it was just me some idiots see an L plate like a red rag to a bull I have had idiots pass me on the wrong lane on roundabouts pull out pass and cut in at a junction but the best is these clowns that spot the plate then scream past you then slow down so you have to slow down...

A friend of mine is in the traffic corp and was telling me when he drives the unmarked speed car he loves these idiots who race up behind him and sit in his back seat he said he gives a few gentle tugs on his hand brake forcing them into taking evasive action then he pulls em

Permabear

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Noobsaibot21

They should change a few rules for learner permits. I can understand the frustration of building up experience and trying to get a full licence holder free to help out. It's not that easy to "book" someone on these occasions or if you rely on your car for work (especially in these tough times). Perhaps learners should only be allowed by law to drive Tata's or Fiat Cinquecento's (or something equally rubbish) until they get their full licence? Alone or accompanied, that's incentive .

Also, with the exception of professional sports drivers, nobody under 26 should be allowed to get high powered cars or kits (in a vain attempt) to increase the performance of average cars - I'm looking at Honda Civic's and Toyota Celica's here. If they weren't planning on speeding, why spend all that cash on trying to make it look fast? Why not just get a Mondeo? Comfy, Spacious, cheap and is a pleasure to drive (no, I dont work for Ford).

As for the fines, while i'm sure Gardai would enforce these rules on everyone, as long as your 10-2 and not driving (or acting) like a tool, you'd get away with it. While it will never be officially uttered, i'm sure that Gardai would rather target the stereotypical boy racer in a Skyline than someone driving safely and sensibly (who happers to have an LP). And rightly so in my humble opinion. I was chuffed to read an article in the Indo on Thursday re: tinted windows and overly loud exhausts:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boy-racers-face-threat-of-jail-in-garda-crackdown-1826481.html

It's drivers like these which give regular provisional licence holders, who drive sensibly and are only prov because they are waiting for the RSA to get their arses in gear, a bad rep

And with regards to the L plates raging bull syndrome, that's why I took mine down. I work in motor insurance and know exactly where liability would rest if someone hit me so I rarely let impatient drivers "bully me" on the roads L plates or not. One of my mates gave me the best advice out of anyone when I started driving:

"Other drivers, Cyclists, Motor cycles, pedestrians - assume everyone is stupid."

For example, someone might inch out of a side road so much that it would leave me minimal room to pass. I'd assume they were stupid and let them out (grudgingly). Even though I know I had right of way, i'd rather just give them a beep or a stern look as opposed to crashing (despite the principle).

I have my test at the end of the month in Raheny - Only booked it last month - a rare bit of quick work on the RSA's part. Hope I get it.

SuperDude87

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That's a myth usually peddled by those who have been unsuccessful. You need to have had several "slighest little things" in different categories and combinations before failing a test.

No one fails a driving test on "the slightest little thing".

Sorry I don't agree.

My mother is the best driver I know. She failed her test twice before passing. Why? Because the tester she got was horrible, asking questions that didn't even exist for her theory questions and unrightfully marking her down in areas.

They are in the minority but they do exist because quotas exist so I don't believe if 50 people were eligable to pass 50 people would because there a some power ridden eejits out there testing.

Wishbone Ash

SuperDude87 wrote: »

My mother is the best driver I know

That doesn't mean she is a good driver.

SuperDude87 wrote:

Why? Because the tester she got was horrible, asking questions that didn't even exist for her theory questions

How do you know? Were you present?

Many people who are unsuccessful tend to blame the system and bend the truth somewhat to justify themselves and to make others believe that they were treated unfairly.

It's just human nature and happens in all aspects of society. It's the same with job/promotion interviews. Have you never heard those who were unsuccessful at interviews saying that they got awful questions that weren't relevant? There questions were probably the same as other candidates but they didn't show the same ability at answering them.

But you will rarely hear individual complaints about written examinations for the simple reason that the questions are there for all to see and the unsuccessful person has little opportunity to express personal discrimination.

And why is it always the ones who fail who get these 'horrible' testers? Surely, on the law of averages, those who pass, must also meet these 'horrible' testers?

SuperDude87 wrote:

they do exist because quotas exist

SuperDude87 wrote:

so I don't believe if 50 people were eligable to pass 50 people would

If 50 people successfully demonstrated their competence, of course they would all pass. However, we live in a diverse society. It it is extremely unlikely that those 50 people would present themselves at a driving test centre where there are no other candidates. Everything boils down to averages at the end of the day. On average about half those who do a test will not pass.

That average is relatively similar throughout the country like lots of other averages in our society. That doesn't mean that a 'quota' exists.

Posy

I agree and disagree with the 'slightest little thing' remark.
I think Wishbone Ash is right. There is a good system of grading and if you get a certain amount of grade twos or one grade three you fail, fair and square. You can see the sheet and it will show the person exactly what they did wrong.
However, one thing people do fail on is nerves unfortunately, which is a shame. Some people could be a very competent driver but put them in a test situation and they fall apart. Obviously this is not the testers fault, they can't assume 'well, he went through a red light, but sure he's probably just nervous' but it can be a pity and frustrating as nerves are something you can't control.

As for enforcement of the L laws, I'm in two minds. I think guards should be more lenient on a learner in the cul-de-sac of a housing estate practicing turnabouts than a learner speeding down the motorway unaccompanied. But does that mean the guards should let someone drive away if they're only a little bit over the alcohol limit?
I think it's up to the guard to use his/her own judgement with L drivers as they're the ones who will have to live with the guilt if that person causes an accident or kills themself after being allowed drive away.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Posy

Indeed. Passing the test (especially on the first attempt) can make many people cocky and think they are fantastic drivers just because they made it through 40 or so minutes without mucking up. Driving is a life long learning experience and a huge responsibility, not one that can be fully assessed in a driving test and certainly not one to be taken for granted.

tomtom66

I have a provisional License and since 2010 when i started driving, i only been stopped once for no Tax disc.. ok yes my fault and i got a 60 euro Fine.. but i thought the whole idea of driving your own car was have your own Insurance and pay for tax.. i live alone and no parents to go around with me.. So since im paying my way.. So what right have the gardai with respect to them, can they do ... im doing what the LAW wants me to do to my best intent... drive safely and pay for my car..

Faith+1

tomtom66 wrote: »

I have a provisional License and since 2010 when i started driving, i only been stopped once for no Tax disc.. ok yes my fault and i got a 60 euro Fine.. but i thought the whole idea of driving your own car was have your own Insurance and pay for tax.. i live alone and no parents to go around with me.. So since im paying my way.. So what right have the gardai with respect to them, can they do ... im doing what the LAW wants me to do to my best intent... drive safely and pay for my car..

No you're not Tom. The law was changed back in 2008 which stipulated that all learner drivers must be accompanied at all times by a full licence holder. Paying for road tax and insurance has nothing to do with this law.