Learner permits driving alone. Enforcement?

Henry Ford III

I'm being told that the cops aren't really too interested in enforcing the new legislation.

Can anyone confirm this?

Even and consistant enforcement must be the only way to ensure maximum compliance surely?

Guy:Incognito

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm being told that the cops aren't really too interested in enforcing the new legislation.

Can anyone confirm this?

Even and consistant enforcement must be the only way to ensure maximum compliance surely?

I can only assume from seeing huge amounts of people driving alone in cars with L plates and from watching Traffic Corp on RTE that they very much dont care about it.

Stealdo

Stekelly wrote: »

I can only assume from seeing huge amounts of people driving alone in cars with L plates and from watching Traffic Corp on RTE that they very much dont care about it.

Yep - last week on that thing there was a woman pulled over for texting while driving. She had L-plates sitting on the passenger seat of the car. Garda told her to put them up when she gets home, never mentioned the fact that she didn't have a license to be driving on her own (the voice over confirmed the provisional).

Not only are they not interested in enforcing it, they're advertising the fact on prime time TV.

Berty

If you speak to the Garda in Phoenix Park they will tell you that the Gardai have a duty to stop all these drivers and enforce the law but Joe Garda will tell you that they will take a tolerant view.

I am of the opinion that if you are in breach of the law and the terms of your license then you should have no insurance and by not having both of these you are a danger on the road and should be stopped at all costs.

I am aware, however, that the Insurance companies will still cover third party claims if a L driver crashes but they shouldnt really. You should have to sue the L driver because they have no right to be driving alone.

The Law is the Law and the Gardai do not enforce it.

If the Garda were given a special book to carry with them for enforcing it I bet they would. Anything that appears like too much hard work appears to fall by the wayside.(sp).

afatbollix

its up to the gardai you meet... if you fecked up big style like let say have a crash you wont have insurance so they could do you for the €1000 euro fine for driving on your own 12 points for no insurance and could put you in front of the courts again for dangerous driving...

Its up to you if its worth the risk...

saying all that you may never be in a crash or meet the wrong type of gardai...

Busi_Girl08

It really pisses me off though.

I am a learner driver myself. I've seen several of my friends driving around with their L plates, or taking them off, unaccompanied.

Their reason for doing it? "Sure you never get caught". :rolleyes:

I will never drive unaccompanied. Partly because I'm going to be on my Dad's insurance, in his car, and he is sure as hell not going to let me, but mainly because I don't want to break the law, putting other's people's life in danger, just so I can get around.

People say that they don't have any choice or whatever, which just is ridiculous.
I really hope that the Gardai tackle down on it more in the future.

Sorry, needed to rant.

Guy:Incognito

afatbollix wrote: »

saying all that you may never be in a crash or meet the wrong type of gardai...

Surely you mean the right type of Gard? The wrong type are the ones that let people drive around breaking laws with impunity.

messygirl

are posters here for real?! if the gardai start enforcing everyone complains "sure there is no public transport" and if they don't enforce they are being labelled lazy because they don't want the extra hassle. My brother's a garda, and he thinks its better to be fair and give people a chance unless they are being outright dangerous or a dick, this includes people with other offences. It differes with who pulls you over, and it also depends on if they ar traffic corp (stricter) or regular gardai. And frankly when I was a learner I was a lot more careful on the roads. Now i have my full licence I've noticed my speed increasing. But give the guards a break, I always drove on my own because of circumstances I didn't have someone to sit beside me. When I pased checkpoints they waved me on even though i had L plates and i am damn grateful too!

Paulw

They very much should enforce it. It's the law.

A prime example was on Traffic Blues - a woman, learner driver, L plates up, driving alone (no full license with her) with 5 kids in the back (not wearing belts), and she tried to reverse away from a Garda checkpoint, but yet when the Gardai got to her, they just spoke to her, nothing more than that - a warning.

Now, she was a danger to herself, the kids, and cars around (as she tried to escape the checkpoint). Surely that should be dealt with????

Cionád

If your in the local lidl carpark doing doghnuts you might get the fine, otherwise its not enforced at all.

messygirl

Paulw of course they should enforce it when a woman has five kids and none wearing seatbelts and reverses out of the checkpoint, the issue in this thread is just the L plates and should it be enforced, and frankly i think the gardai use there own judgement, and some L drivers are as good or better than full licence. I just don't like when people categorisethe gardai as lazy because they are giving people a break regarding the L drivers, and the issue i was referring to was that L drivers should be cut out from the roads. it has to be introduced gradually and more support systems set up, like providing driving lessons in schools. You have to have ten driving lessons before you take your test, what about all the people on the dole now? think they will be able to afford loads of driving lessons? I don't think learner drivers are the most serious problem,

Henry Ford III

What message does this non enforcement give to road users? Comply with road traffic laws if you wish?

It's a complete jokeshop.

People without full licences should not be allowed drive alone. It's that simple. They've had plenty of time to sit and pass a test at this stage.

ardmacha

There is a role for discretion in enforcement, someone may generally be law abiding and make a mistake. But if you have a L driver routinely driving around with no accompanying driver then this is deliberate and should attract the penalty defined in law. A warning is "don't do it again", it should not be "carry on".

me_shell_86

i have a provisional and some of the dumb asses i see driving with full licences really annoys me! who the hell passed them on the test, the whole system is a joke

Henry Ford III

messygirl wrote: »

Paulw of course they should enforce it when a woman has five kids and none wearing seatbelts and reverses out of the checkpoint, the issue in this thread is just the L plates and should it be enforced, and frankly i think the gardai use there own judgement, and some L drivers are as good or better than full licence. I just don't like when people categorisethe gardai as lazy because they are giving people a break regarding the L drivers, and the issue i was referring to was that L drivers should be cut out from the roads. it has to be introduced gradually and more support systems set up, like providing driving lessons in schools. You have to have ten driving lessons before you take your test, what about all the people on the dole now? think they will be able to afford loads of driving lessons? I don't think learner drivers are the most serious problem,

1/. If the L driver is good enough they should take and pass the test.

2/. L drivers deliberately flouting the law is the subject matter here.

me_shell_86

Henry Ford III wrote: »

1/. If the L driver is good enough they should take and pass the test.

2/. L drivers deliberately flouting the law is the subject matter here.

i know this is said a lot and some driving testers are grand but some of them fail you on the slightest little thing when you can drive just fine!

i failed because i didnt stop at a pedestrian crossing...but there was no one crossing so why would you stop? i think they never should have changed the law and that when your on your second provisional, you should be able to drive by yourself...

what's the person sitting next to you with a license gonna do if something happens anyway....??

AdamusAdonis

In response to the original post, they were never too keen on enforcing the same law which existed before the "learner permit"...

Henry Ford III

me_shell_86 wrote: »

i know this is said a lot and some driving testers are grand but some of them fail you on the slightest little thing when you can drive just fine!

i failed because i didnt stop at a pedestrian crossing...but there was no one crossing so why would you stop? i think they never should have changed the law and that when your on your second provisional, you should be able to drive by yourself...

what's the person sitting next to you with a license gonna do if something happens anyway....??

1/. True. Life unfortunately is frequently unfair.

2/. Subject to correction but you are not obliged to stop at a pedestrian crossing if nobody is there.

3/. Dunno. The rules are the rules however.

Henry Ford III

AdamusAdonis wrote: »

In response to the original post, they were never too keen on enforcing the same law which existed before the "learner permit"...

I agree, but the legislation was blamed.

That's now been changed however.

R.O.R

me_shell_86 wrote: »

i think they never should have changed the law and that when your on your second provisional, you should be able to drive by yourself...

Well, if you think it's alright then they should change the law back. Let's not follow the rest of the developed world and allow inexperienced drivers behind the wheel of a deadly weapon.

[/climb off high horse]

AdamusAdonis

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I agree, but the legislation was blamed.
That's now been changed however.

No matter, were talking about people enforcing it. The legislation in the background makes no odds unless the guy/gal actually wants to use it

Paulw

messygirl wrote: »

You have to have ten driving lessons before you take your test, what about all the people on the dole now?

Where does it say you need to have 10 driving lessons? I certainly didn't have 10.

I had 4, with a brilliant instructor, and then loads of practice in prep for my test. My girlfriend was brilliant (she's the full license) and went around with me most evenings. I passed my test first time.

Yes, driving schools, etc would be better, but we all have to work within the laws.

And, the law was changed ONLY for those on a 2nd provisional license. It didn't change for those on a 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th provisional.

me_shell_86

R.O.R wrote: »

Well, if you think it's alright then they should change the law back. Let's not follow the rest of the developed world and allow inexperienced drivers behind the wheel of a deadly weapon.

[/climb off high horse]

not all of them are inexperienced though.... i totally agree if you dont have proper experience 6 months etc i think u need to have before applying for your test, then obviously dont go driving on your own... but 2nd provisional drivers should have enough experience to be able to drive without someone beside you who cant do anything anyway.....

R.O.R

me_shell_86 wrote: »

not all of them are inexperienced though.... i totally agree if you dont have proper experience 6 months etc i think u need to have before applying for your test, then obviously dont go driving on your own... but 2nd provisional drivers should have enough experience to be able to drive without someone beside you who cant do anything anyway.....

Well, if they are that good - WHY DON'T THEY PASS THE FU**ING TEST???

AdamusAdonis

To an extent, take me for example. I've a second provisional... but zero experience.
Best medicine: Allow no-one but fully licensed drivers on the road alone.

me_shell_86

R.O.R wrote: »

Well, if they are that good - WHY DON'T THEY PASS THE FU**ING TEST???

you can fail a test on the smallest of things, some ppl with full licences drive like crap too , im not saying every person on a provisional is a good driver, just dnt agree with that law , thats my opinion , thats all!

Alanstrainor

Driving lessons are not compulsory. There is no requirement to have taken any prior to taking the test. Although they are handy! Just to clarify the test is not about being a good driver, it's about being a 'safe' driver.

R.O.R

me_shell_86 wrote: »

you can fail a test on the smallest of things

If you fail, you fail and aren't a good enough driver to drive by yourself on the road.

me_shell_86 wrote: »

just dnt agree with that law , thats my opinion , thats all!

And it's that sort of attitude that (IMHO) is responsible for the shocking state of the majority of driver in this country. People think driving is a right rather than a privilege

me_shell_86

R.O.R wrote: »

If you fail, you fail and aren't a good enough driver to drive by yourself on the road.



And it's that sort of attitude that (IMHO) is responsible for the shocking state of the majority of driver in this country. People think driving is a right rather than a privilege

yes and every car accident in Ireland is caused by provisional drivers

UrbanSea

To skip all this banter,no the gaurds arent enforcing it.
A provisional driver I know went into the garda station and asked them this and they were told they werent stoppin L drivers just for been unaccompanied in their car while driving.

hobochris

me_shell_86 wrote: »

yes and every car accident in Ireland is caused by provisional drivers

R.O.R never implied that.

The fact of the matter is, you are expected to abide by the law and when driving do so in a safe manner while observing the rules of the road.

The test is in place to make sure you can drive to a certain standard, abide by the rules of the road and drive safely.

Weather some fully licensed drivers seem worse on the roads or not is irreverent to the fact that they have at one stage proved they can drive in a competent and safe manor unlike provisional drivers who have not yet proved this through the test.

If fully licensed drivers want to flaunt the rules of road then they risk losing their privilege of driving, as do learners who do likewise, but the difference is the learner is risking a privilege they have not yet earned by proving themselves competent and safe through the test.

Wishbone Ash

me_shell_86 wrote: »

some driving testers are grand but some of them fail you on the slightest little thing

That's a myth usually peddled by those who have been unsuccessful. You need to have had several "slighest little things" in different categories and combinations before failing a test.

No one fails a driving test on "the slightest little thing".

mondeo

Lots of people driving alone with their L plates up and they dont appear to be stopped. Their is not a witch hunt going on like people initially thought their would be when the law was first brought in. You could take your L plates off and get away with it for the moment if your careful and not cutting corners and taking wide left turns which makes it obvious you took your L plates off.

The driving testers have to have a certain number of pass's and fails each month so you could become a fail statistic even if you are a perfect driver...

ardmacha

Their is not a witch hunt going on

So law enforcement against delinquents is a "witch hunt".

The driving testers have to have a certain number of pass's and fails each month so you could become a fail statistic even if you are a perfect driver...

Bollix.

I think the government lost the plot on this one. Having finally ended the ridiculous situation where you could fail a driving test and just drive off, they had a long period for people to get used to the idea. They should have brought in regulations prohibiting the display of L plates by by other than learner drivers and should have stopped everyone with L plates and one person in the car, or on motorways etc. They should have sought from insurance companies a list of vehicles insured for learner drivers, to assist detection of those not displaying L plates. People could have had a warning, but this would recorded and any further offence would have be enforced.

This would have seen motoring laws being respected, for once, rather than a situation where the least experienced drivers are the least law abiding.

mondeo

ardmacha wrote: »

So law enforcement against delinquents is a "witch hunt".



Bollix.

I think the government lost the plot on this one. Having finally ended the ridiculous situation where you could fail a driving test and just drive off, they had a long period for people to get used to the idea. They should have brought in regulations prohibiting the display of L plates by by other than learner drivers and should have stopped everyone with L plates and one person in the car, or on motorways etc. They should have sought from insurance companies a list of vehicles insured for learner drivers, to assist detection of those not displaying L plates. People could have had a warning, but this would recorded and any further offence would have be enforced.

This would have seen motoring laws being respected, for once, rather than a situation where the least experienced drivers are the least law abiding.

It's not "Bollix" Ask a tester and they will tell you they have to have a percentage of pass's and fails...

"witch hunt being a figure of speech"

VolvoMan

R.O.R wrote: »

Well, if they are that good - WHY DON'T THEY PASS THE FU**ING TEST???

The driving test is the luck of the draw for some. There are test centres that have a dreadful pass rate and some people are unlucky enough to get them when they apply for the test. Other people can be rubbish drivers and it can be the other way around.

Ally Dick

Lets face the facts a) Irish cops are extremely lazy and brassed off with the government for being included in the pension levy
b) This is reflected in the huge amount of law breaking going on

Seth Brundle

moved to LTD!

Wishbone Ash

VolvoMan wrote: »

There are test centres that have a dreadful pass rate and some people are unlucky enough to get them when they apply for the test

Eh, the candidate selects the test centre!

What test centres have a "dreadful" pass rate?

No matter how high an average is, someone has to be at the bottom of an overall list.

If you were to list the top speeds of all Ferraris made over the past 20 years, one model has to be the slowest. Does that mean that it is a slow car?

Wishbone Ash

mondeo wrote: »

The driving testers have to have a certain number of pass's and fails each month so you could become a fail statistic even if you are a perfect driver...

It's times like these that we need a massive 'roll eyes' icon! :rolleyes:

DrivingMad

Statistics...../ numbers...... hmmmm
I have my own statistics. In the last two years, two members of my family have been involved in accidents with two learner drivers. One was so serious that my relative nearly died.
I do have to wonder if the law had been enforced, would these two accidents have occurred?
(Yes I know the new law was only passed last year on 2nd permit holders, these two accidents were by first year permit holders, which to my knowledge, has always prohibited them from driving unaccompanied. I'm sure I will be corrected if not.)

These are my statistics and dont personally feel that there is any excuse for this law not to be enforced.
Having said that, pleeeaaase instead of thinking of ways to outsmart this law, why not just go for it and pass your test?

ardmacha

The driving testers have to have a certain number of pass's and fails each month so you could become a fail statistic even if you are a perfect driver..

There are test centres that have a dreadful pass rate and some people are unlucky enough to get them when they apply for the test

Let's see if I have this right. So testers are required to have a specific number of passes and failures, but this number differs from centre to centre. This must be confusing if a tester goes to work in another centre! You would think they would just "force" the testers to have the same pass rate everywhere.

ztoical

me_shell_86 wrote: »

but 2nd provisional drivers should have enough experience to be able to drive without someone beside you who cant do anything anyway.....

your assuming that someone on a 2nd provisional has been driving for at least two years on a 1st before getting a 2nd but in alot of cases people applied for a 1st provisional and never used it. They either got it just to use as id or they planned to learn to drive but something came up. I got my 1st provisional but then moved to New York so when I came home and wanted to learn to drive I ended up on a 2nd provisional having never sat behind the wheel of a car.

messygirl

Ally Dick wrote: »

Lets face the facts a) Irish cops are extremely lazy and brassed off with the government for being included in the pension levy
b) This is reflected in the huge amount of law breaking going on

excuse me but my brother is a garda and he spends too much time on rape cases and child abuse cases to be worrying about learner drivers. His friend in garda college had a gun pulled on hi, when chasing on foot a robber and my brother had drugged up men attack him with slash hooks so PLEASE don't make assumptions that all gardai are lazy, my dad is also a cop and when I was young he would be working every christmas day, every new year night, asleep during the day because he was on shift duty, got chased and nearly killed by a guy on lsd and broke his two hands while on duty, so if you have met every single garda in the country and observed what they have done and still deem them lazy then I will take my post back, but blaming law breaking on cops caring less because of the pension levy is ridiculous, next you will be having a go at the teachers, maybe they are involved in some conspiracy too to wreck the country with their laziness. I personally would prefer to se the gardai working on the biggest killers like speed and drugs and drink

Regarding the 10 lessons my bad I heard they were going to bring in a rule saying you had so much experience and lessons before you could take the test, open to corrections.

When i did my test I had a perfect sheet except for gears (as in an estate i should have been driving on 4th apparently but stayed on 3rd) can you tell me how gears makes me an unsafe driver?had like 5 ticks, which personally i think is ridiculous because i always drive between 2-2500 revs which is what my car can handle, and i had taken about 8 driving lessons before that

Driving mad I am very sorry to hear about your relatives,it must be heard wondering what if all the time, my cousin died because he wasnt wearing his seatbelt about 15 years ago and it was traumatic for his parents, if the government had made it their job to ensure everyone was wearing setabelts he could be married with kids by now, this must be a tough topic for you.

not14talk

Paulw wrote: »

They very much should enforce it. It's the law.

A prime example was on Traffic Blues - a woman, learner driver, L plates up, driving alone (no full license with her) with 5 kids in the back (not wearing belts), and she tried to reverse away from a Garda checkpoint, but yet when the Gardai got to her, they just spoke to her, nothing more than that - a warning.

Now, she was a danger to herself, the kids, and cars around (as she tried to escape the checkpoint). Surely that should be dealt with????

She got two penalty point for the kids not wearing there seat belts and at the time of the recording of the program there was no penalty points for driving unaccompanied which there is now.

I am a learner and as much as I find it a pain in the ass to find someone to come with me I do think its a good law even though its not enforced. Like people using 'there is no public transport where I live' excuse to them driving unaccompanied is just stupid waiting times are now down from 48 to 10 weeks and you should take the time to do your test.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ztoical

messygirl wrote: »

excuse me but my brother is a garda and he spends too much time on rape cases and child abuse cases to be worrying about learner drivers..

Why would members of the Garda traffic corps be investigating rape cases? I understand getting protective when people start dissing the Garda, my mums a doctor and I'm quick to step in when people start saying all doctors are money grabbing and lazy. Not all Garda worry about driving laws but for some of them that's all they focus on so they should be enforcing all the laws.

RSA ADI MARK

hi all did any one watch traffic blues,then you will see how lacks the law is:rolleyes:

TwoShedsJackson

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Good question, and it boils down to the old Irish attitude of 'ah sure go on, you're causing no harm'. Not right now they're not, but they have a much higher chance of causing themselves or someone else harm in the future, if this stuff is ignored.

Slowly but surely attitudes change, so we can hope that in say, 20 years, the idea of driving on your own on a provisional will seem ridiculous, in the way that smoking in a pub does now

ardmacha

The smoking ban is a good example of the difference between doing the job right and the present approach. When the smoking ban was introduced they simply said that it would be enforced, end of story. When a few pubs tried to give the finger to the law they simply prosecuted them. The others then fell into line. All that is needed with L drivers is exactly the same approach. State that the law will be enforced, round up any scofflaws and then the problem will be minimal, but if you subsequently encounter any chancers at checkpoints etc then fine them too.

Ally Dick

messygirl wrote: »

but blaming law breaking on cops caring less because of the pension levy is ridiculous.

Well I do blame them. Little apples grow into an orchard. Lazy community policing and the fact that garda patrols seem to be a thing of the past has caused anarchy on our streets. Small petty crime is "let go" by the guards and then this leads to more and more serious crime. We need zero tolerance in this country and the gardai are not prepared to do it. They put on their poor victimised civil servants hats now, and hide in their police stations. They are fuming over the pension levy. They are on a work to rule e.g. a go slow. They are quite prepared to let the country go to rack and ruin so they can hold the government to ransom for a wage increase. They don't deserve the huge wages they are currently earning, as it is !