Prong/Pinch Collars - Opinions??

laceyl

Jack it is well known that inflicting pain on a dog can turn them aggressive, maybe if you hadnt used prongs collars they wouldnt want to maul things.

Wants wrong with a nice harness? If you get a Sensible one which the lead attaches to the collar and harness, you would have more control over your dogs than using prong collars. They also wouldnt be in pain.

I strongly believe that there is no sitiuation possible where prong collars, choke chains, shock collars etc need to be used, they only create more problems and are frankly cruel.

JackF

no my dogs are trained but that doesnt mean everyone elses dogs are , so if a dog attacked mine , mine will obiously fight back , and my dogs arent on pronged collars anymore , there only made for training , i only had mine on it for about a week and then the collar was hung up never to be used again , until i got another german shephard and put her on it for a week , dont know about you but i woudnt be able to hold back 2 fully grown german shephards

fatmammycat

JackF wrote: »

no my dogs are trained but that doesnt mean everyone elses dogs are , so if a dog attacked mine , mine will obiously fight back , and my dogs arent on pronged collars anymore , there only made for training , i only had mine on it for about a week and then the collar was hung up never to be used again , until i got another german shephard and put her on it for a week , dont know about you but i woudnt be able to hold back 2 fully grown german shephards

So how do you hold them back now- seeing as you don't use pronged collars any longer? What happens if a dog attacks your dogs now?

JackF

ive brought my dogs to a training centre for german shephards , if its a little dog ie a jack russel , id chase it away , but say a rotweiler or a very large dog , id try to keep my dogs back from him as much as possible as both dogs would get seriously hurt , but my dogs arent for fighting there domestic pets.

fatmammycat

I get that they are pets, Jack, my question was how do you restrain your dogs now should they be attacked by another dog- as earlier you suggested the prong collar was to stop them 'mauling the face' off another animal. What happens now if you are out and about? If bringing them to a centre and training them therein was the solution then why the need to use a prong collar at all?

JackF

i used that before i had the dosh to train them , i woudnt recommend it unless ur dog is stubborn , and way to strong for u

Skillie

My 7.5 stone girlfriend can control our 1 year old 9 stone Newf on a harness, this is due to training. he is still a pup and a bit ditzy and gets carried away at times and wants to say hi to everyone and everdog. has the occassional pull but even though she is severly out gunned by him in the strength stakes it still doesn't take a painful positive punishment device to contain him

ofthebeststuff

This thread raises a lot of questions for me. I'm glad I found it. Bear with me if I go a little off topic--I come back to the prong collar.

I grew up around breeders and dog trainers and was trained to train dogs in a rather old-school "force" way. Not cruelty, but lots of choke collars, etc. As I've gotten older and researched things on my own, I've become much more interested in the voice/body/psychology methods of dog training, (one of my favourite books on the subject is "The Other End of the Leash") I've done my research and I haven't used a choke collar on a dog in years.

I now have a nearly 3-year-old rescue who is mostly Irish Setter. There looks to be some spaniel and/or lurcher in him. He's very fast and slight. I've had him for nearly a year. He was a bit of a mess when I got him, really wild and sensitive and destructive. He's mellowed out quite a lot, and responds fairly well to basic training commands. (sit, down, recall) I try to take him out to a pitch or park to run every day because he's got boundless energy, and he is getting better and better at being responsive to me "in the field", ie coming when called, minding me if I tell him "leave it!" about anything, sitting and staying on command. So I'm pretty proud of him.

My main issue though is walking him on a lead. I have never had the peculiar kind of struggle I have with him in my whole life of working with dogs. He doesn't lunge and he's not wildly over-excited, but he has absolutely no attention for me. He's not frantic, but he's completely forward-driven and absorbed in his surroundings. He's always at the end of the lead, straining not violently, but strongly and continuously, enough that my arm aches after a very short distance. He absolutely will not heel. I worry about the damage to his neck (he's got a regular flat collar, but still, it's continuous pressure) and it's unpleasant to walk him on the lead, especially in town where I don't want him sticking his nose in every buggy and crotch that passes by.

I understand that this is very much a breed thing. His genetics ask him to be a hyper-alert, hyper-aroused "scout". I never notice this more than when he's on an off-lead walk in the country...he's happy to trot on about 10 feet in front of me, and pauses and looks back for me on a regular basis, eager to establish communication. But on the lead, he's having none of it. He's in a different world, completely deaf to me. I've tried whispering, calling, continuous "chatter", treats (useless, he's the least food-oriented dog I have ever met), and I've tried stopping every time he exerts tension on the lead until he notices we're not moving. (this means every 3 steps) I did this for an hour at a time, no help. I've tried over long periods of time, and I seem to get nowhere.

I have used prong collars before in the past, to good effect, but that was a long time ago. I actually got one for Rua last year and he went miserable before any correction was even given (ie no pinch). He is a very sensitive dog and he wasn't having it--he tried to paw it off his neck and then crawled behind the couch to hide. I wasn't going to force it on him early in our relationship, but I'd been considering it again now that he has settled so much but this thread is making me think.

I need something to focus him, to bring his attention back to me. I understand that I'm competing with the big fascinating "OUT THERE" and I don't know what to do. It's such a shame because there are so many places I don't bring him and so many errands where he could be my companion, but I don't because it's too stressful and sore. It might be going against his breed instincts, but I don't think a well-behaved walk on a lead is too much to ask. It's so damn basic, and I find it embarrasing that we can't seem to manage it. (He's incredibly intelligent, too, can open all the doors and windows in the house himself)

I think part of this is that I have no experience of this kind of gun dog. I grew up with working retrievers, GSDs and Bouviers. The retrievers were so eager to please and the others were so focused and attentive. I know what makes them tick. With Rua I'm on new territory.

He is a dote, though, and completely devoted to me.

Any ideas?

(excuse the length! obviously this is getting to me!)

Skillie

afraid i'm not nearly experienced enough in any situation like this but have you tried really really good treats? like salami, chorizo sausage etc? with the newf when he was younger he wanted to be withour retriever all the time, she walks off leash and we keep him on due to scaring the bejazus outta everybody. so from when he was small we kept him on. he would pull constantly to try and be with molly. so we just had to do a combination of stop/go, changing direction and walking away from her till he behaved and also bringing a pouch of sausage meat diced every walk and treating him continuously for his attention. every time he checked in he was rewarded, if he wasn't pulling he was rewarded, if he pulled we stopped etc etc. this is tough going, very frustrating and tiring but it eventually worked. i'm sure a pinch would have stopped him faster and with less effort on our part but it still would have been the wrong way to go. best of luck with the training

ofthebeststuff

Changing direction is a good tactic. I hadn't thought of that one!

Have tried commercial training treats, cheese, crumbled bacon, bits of cooked beef or chicken--no luck. He might sniff but the he turns his head and is off again. The only thing he goes nuts for is bread and butter--carrying a sliced pan is a huge pain on a walk, LOL. But I should keep trying. I have a couple of sausages in the fridge...I might cook and dice them up and try them later today with the constant changes of direction.

Thanks very much for the reply--I feel a bit better. I think just posting about it has helped clear my head. It's so easy to get frustrated. :rolleyes:

messygirl

Does anyone else notice how dogs seem to love jaffa cakes?! anyway we took the dog for a walk and the only time he came racing back to us was when we had a juicy bit of bacon from that days dinner in our pocket! I think it is recommended not sure if this works but if you call him back and give him the bacon or cheese or whatever and then next time give him a big petting and then the next time more treats and continue gradually phasing out the treats. Himself never does anything unless its for something tasty! The only trick we didnt have to teach him was beg!

Skillie

ofthebeststuff wrote: »

Changing direction is a good tactic. I hadn't thought of that one!

Have tried commercial training treats, cheese, crumbled bacon, bits of cooked beef or chicken--no luck. He might sniff but the he turns his head and is off again. The only thing he goes nuts for is bread and butter--carrying a sliced pan is a huge pain on a walk, LOL. But I should keep trying. I have a couple of sausages in the fridge...I might cook and dice them up and try them later today with the constant changes of direction.

Thanks very much for the reply--I feel a bit better. I think just posting about it has helped clear my head. It's so easy to get frustrated. :rolleyes:

what we used was skinless sausages and white pudding, chopped uncooked and then frozen. stick a fistful in a poo bag every walk and thats it. you'll have fingers that smell of sausage and pudding but its a small price to pay if it works!! all the best

andreac

messygirl wrote: »

Does anyone else notice how dogs seem to love jaffa cakes?! anyway we took the dog for a walk and the only time he came racing back to us was when we had a juicy bit of bacon from that days dinner in our pocket! I think it is recommended not sure if this works but if you call him back and give him the bacon or cheese or whatever and then next time give him a big petting and then the next time more treats and continue gradually phasing out the treats. Himself never does anything unless its for something tasty! The only trick we didnt have to teach him was beg!

Messygirl, please dont feed Jaffa cakes to your dog as chocolate is toxic to them and can be very harmful, try to stick to meat or cheese based treats.:)

Blueprint

If your dog is toy motivated, a ball or tuggy game can be far more effective at getting their attention than using food. I had my struggles with my guy in the beginning with the lead pulling, which was solved with a lot of walking in circles and standing around like a lemon with the dog looking at me wondering why we're not moving!

For recall, I only got a really reliable one when I gave up trying to get him to come for food and moved on to bubbles. My dog adores bubbles!

He's also trained to know that if he comes in from out the front he will get bubbles, which means that he no longer tries to take himself for a walk when he gets out the front door. He has this habit of asking to go out the front now, sticking just his nose out the door and then coming in and expecting his bubbles though!

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Messygirl, please dont feed Jaffa cakes to your dog as chocolate is toxic to them and can be very harmful, try to stick to meat or cheese based treats.:)

I doubt the odd biscuit is going to kill the dog! Anything is fine in moderation.

Skillie

Blueprint wrote: »

If your dog is toy motivated, a ball or tuggy game can be far more effective at getting their attention than using food. I had my struggles with my guy in the beginning with the lead pulling, which was solved with a lot of walking in circles and standing around like a lemon with the dog looking at me wondering why we're not moving!

For recall, I only got a really reliable one when I gave up trying to get him to come for food and moved on to bubbles. My dog adores bubbles!

He's also trained to know that if he comes in from out the front he will get bubbles, which means that he no longer tries to take himself for a walk when he gets out the front door. He has this habit of asking to go out the front now, sticking just his nose out the door and then coming in and expecting his bubbles though!

thats hillarious, and a great idea must try that with mine, bubbles, i love it

andreac

Lemlin wrote: »

I doubt the odd biscuit is going to kill the dog! Anything is fine in moderation.

Lemlin, chocolate is toxic to dogs and shouldnt be fed in any moderation. Why take the risk??

bionic.laura

Thanks Skillie for your link to dogstardaily.com. I've been trying to stop my dog pulling. Loads of people said I should get a choke chain or similar but I don't agree with them. I think dogs get trained better when you reward them for doing what you want them to do. Praise works for dogs and humans it seems. I tried this method on two short walks today and am getting results! So thanks for the links hopefully in a few weeks he'll stop pulling altogether and without any harsh methods.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Lemlin, chocolate is toxic to dogs and shouldnt be fed in any moderation. Why take the risk??

Do you have a link or any evidence to back this up?

I'm not advocating people feeding chocolate as I know its not good for dogs but last time I checked I haven't seen any dogs fall over and die from being fed a Mars bar.

andreac

Lemlin, what is your problem?? Chocolate is toxic for dogs so im warning the op. You would swear i was trying to tell you something that is wrong.

You want a link, heres one!
http://www.vetrica.com/care/dog/chocolate.shtml

and another

http://www.bigpawsonly.com/chocolate-poisoning-in-dogs-health.htm

and another
http://www.dogtopics.com/165/7-questions-about-dogs-and-chocolate/

You want anymore?
I rest my case

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Lemlin, what is your problem?? Chocolate is toxic for dogs so im warning the op. You would swear i was trying to tell you something that is wrong.

You want a link, heres one!
http://www.vetrica.com/care/dog/chocolate.shtml

and another

http://www.bigpawsonly.com/chocolate-poisoning-in-dogs-health.htm

and another
http://www.dogtopics.com/165/7-questions-about-dogs-and-chocolate/

You want anymore?
I rest my case

Can't get into those in work so will have a read over the weekend at home.

andreac

I dont know why you seem to be having a go, but if i didnt know certain things were toxic to dogs id be glad if someone told me.
There are so many things that are toxic to dogs that you wouldnt even think are, trying doing a search and see what comes up.

http://www.mgbtraining.co.uk/docs/Foods%20Which%20are%20Potenially%20Toxic%20to%20Dogs.pdf

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

I dont know why you seem to be having a go, but if i didnt know certain things were toxic to dogs id be glad if someone told me.
There are so many things that are toxic to dogs that you wouldnt even think are, trying doing a search and see what comes up.

http://www.mgbtraining.co.uk/docs/Foods%20Which%20are%20Potenially%20Toxic%20to%20Dogs.pdf

I can't get into that either. I'm not having a go but I do think some people on here go over the top with the preaching.

I honestly don't see how the odd jaffa cake (with the tiny bit of chocolate that is in it) is going to seriously harm a dog. I wouldn't feed chcocolate to my dogs but we had terriers at home all my youth and I often fed them chocolate (when I didn't know any better) and it didn't do them one bit of harm. One of them lived to be 16 or 17, and even then it wasn't old age that killed her but being poisioned.

I think alot of stuff written about dogs is the same as what is written about our own food e.g. one expert says one thing and another says another. That's why I tend to take things with a pinch of salt.

Its like the regular advice people give on here to go to the IKC to get a reputable breeder. There are plenty of dodgy breeders aligned to the IKC. People also rant regularly about Donedeal. Donedeal and the IKC are the same as everything - you get good breeders and bad through both. Its up to you to carry out the investigation yourself and see if you are happy.

andreac

It was far from preaching, i was trying to advise and warn the op that it is dangerous to feed it to dogs. If you look back i even put a smiley face on the end of it so i wasnt having a go at her.

How can someone warning the op that certain foods are bad and toxic for dogs be considered preaching??

There is a big difference in saying some foods are bad for us and ones that are TOXIC to dogs, toxic means it can seriously harm or kill them, saying a burger or something like that is BAD for us is completely different, as they are not toxic to us.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

It was far from preaching, i was trying to advise and warn the op that it is dangerous to feed it to dogs. If you look back i even put a smiley face on the end of it so i wasnt having a go at her.

How can someone warning the op that certain foods are bad and toxic for dogs be considered preaching??

There is a big difference in saying some foods are bad for us and ones that are TOXIC to dogs, toxic means it can seriously harm or kill them, saying a burger or something like that is BAD for us is completely different, as they are not toxic to us.

I've read the links and, as I said above, I think its all a bit over the top. I don't think chocolate is going to hurt the dog unless its fed pound after pound.

Also, jaffa cakes contain very little chocolate and all the OP has to do is peel the ch0colate part off which is easy with a jaffa cake.

Maybe you weren't preaching but, as has been said by others on this forum before, I think you could find better ways to get your point across.

star-pants

Ok I just noticed this - seriously people what's with the arguing?

Personally I would say not to feed chocolate to dogs too, most especially dark chocolate as it's the cocao that's not good for them afaik.
Then again you have dogs who get chocolate (milk variety) all their lives and they're fine. My friends dog gets buttons regularly and he's fine. However I wouldn't give my dogs chocolate.

Also some dogs are known to be lactose intolerant, which is another reason for steering away from chocolate and dairy products. It's all down to your own personal taste and how your dogs react to certain things.
I used to give my dog a tiny bit of milk at the end of my cornflakes but I don't anymore as it started to disagree with her even though she loved it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but arguing I won't take lightly.


On Topic -- prong/pinch collars I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

It turns out that, for dogs, a chemical in chocolate called theobromine is the source of the problem. Theobromine is similar to caffeine. According to this page, theobromine is toxic to a dog when it ingests between 100 and 150 milligrams per kilogram of body weight.

Different types of chocolate contain different amounts of theobromine: It would take 20 ounces of milk chocolate to kill a 20-pound dog, but only 2 ounces of baker's chocolate or 6 ounces of semisweet chocolate. It is not that hard for a dog to get into something like an Easter basket full of chocolate eggs and bunnies and gobble up a pound or two of chocolate. If the dog is small, that could be deadly.

It turns out that chocolate poisoning is actually not as unusual as it sounds. For a human being, caffeine is toxic at levels of 150 milligrams per kilogram of body weight (see this page). That's the same as for dogs! Humans generally weigh a lot more than dogs, but small children can get into trouble with caffeine or chocolate if they consume too much of it. Infants are especially vulnerable because they don't eliminate caffeine from the bloodstream nearly as quickly as adults.

apparently.

Chocolate Toxicity in Dogs

We've all heard it, "Don't give your dog chocolate it will kill him". We'll how true is it you're probably wondering. Do I have to rush him to an emergency vet if he ate one of my M&M's?

The truth is chocolate contains theobromine that is toxic to dogs in sufficient quantities. This is a xanthine compound in the same family of caffeine, and theophylline.

Toxic Levels

The good news is that it takes, on average, a fairly large amount of theobromine 100-150 mg/kg to cause a toxic reaction. Although there are variables to consider like the individual sensitivity, animal size and chocolate concentration.

On average,
Milk chocolate contains 44 mg of theobromine per oz.
Semisweet chocolate contains 150mg/oz.
Baker's chocolate 390mg/oz.

Using a dose of 100 mg/kg as the toxic dose it comes out roughly as:
1 ounce per 1 pound of body weight for Milk chocolate
1 ounce per 3 pounds of body weight for Semisweet chocolate
1 ounce per 9 pounds of body weight for Baker's chocolate.

So, for example, 2 oz. of Baker's chocolate can cause great risk to an 15 lb. dog. Yet, 2 oz. of Milk chocolate usually will only cause digestive problems.

and here's a link to an irish site too
http://www.irishdogs.ie/articles/Chocolate_and_Your_Dogs_HealthWhat_you_should_Kn.htm
and a wiki saying it's not that bad
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_chocolate_dangerous_for_dogs_to_eat

My personal view is not to give dogs chocolate. Then again as I've said my best friend has given her dog buttons for years and he's just fine.

Skillie

guys can we start dogs & chocolate thread instead of hijacking this one please