Prong/Pinch Collars - Opinions??

Skillie

Hi guys i've a Newfoundland Dog and I'm a member of a newf forum which predominantly has US members. I was horrified just earlier to find a thread complaining about being judged for using prong collars.

It was 5 pages long and pretty much everyone on there backed up the OP that they were right to use one and they use them too and people who condemn them are PC hippy types!!

Am i very naive or missing something here to suggest that in the 21st century any device which uses pain or the threat of pain to get a dog to walk calmly is as barbaric as giving a kid in school 40 lashes when they step outta line? Are they legal in ireland? i've seen very few?

Does anyone here have a valid, plausable and convincing reason why these should be used instead of any positive and humane method?

such excuses on there are that the dog outweighs and outpulls them, they have back probs or are in poor health etc, statements like "i love my dog and would never hurt him but hes not a person and needs different methods of training" etc.

I'm 11 stone and 5'8" and my dog is stronger than me if we were in a tug of war scenario but never has the situation arose where he's pulled me over or i haven't been able to control him when needed. he walks well on his harness or canvas collar ocassionally he will get excited to see another dog etc but i can hold him and is usually easy enough to refocus him. He was trained just using treats, praise, rubs and patience. Am i just lucky and in another situation could i see these torture devices as essential tools?

Just wondering what people think of them

looserock

Skillie wrote: »

Does anyone here have a valid, plausable and convincing reason why these should be used instead of any positive and humane method?

No!

mairsmi

looserock wrote: »

No!

What looserock said. I don't think there is ever any justified reason to use one.

Slightly off topic but I get soo annoyed when people bang on about how wonderful the dog whisperer is when as far as I can see all his 'training methods' involve pain and discomfort or threats of. he is a big user of prong collar.

Skillie

mairsmi wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I get soo annoyed when people bang on about how wonderful the dog whisperer is when as far as I can see all his 'training methods' involve pain and discomfort or threats of. he is a big user of prong collar.

but i totally agree with ya he's the devil!! i used to like him, read the book etc and then just started to think eh thats cruel, oh look so is that, hang on a damn second.....ever watch it with the sound off makes a huge difference all you see is petrified and broken dogs

ncmc

I liked Victoria Stillwells program, 'It's Me or the Dog', she was able to control any dog of any size by using a 'haltie' style head halter. I don't see any reason for choke chaims or prong collars. They're inhumane. full stop.

fionav3

I agree with everyone else. Those collars are horrendous. Positive, consistent training will help your dog respect and listen to you rather than obey you just because he's cowering in fear.

My local pet shop tried to sell me one the other day saying everyody wants them at the moment as the dog whisperer uses them .

fatmammycat

People want a quick fix instead of training their dog to walk properly on a leash. It's ridiculous.

peasant

The argument the the prong collar would only come into action in case of emergency when other methods of control over the dog fail is also pants.

If you let the dog get so excited that it slips out of your control, adding pain to the mixture is hardly going to help de-escalate the situation now, is it?

Skillie

i'm blue in the face from trying to convince these yanks they need to stop taking the easy way out. they are so blinkered and stubborn and most will insist that the collar does not hurt the dog yet the dog is completely transformed by it. HOW THE HELL DOES IT WORK IF IT DOESNNT HURT!!!! lots of "its just a training aid when all else fails and not meant to be used long term" yet the majority there seem to use it as a first port of call and daily indeffinately and are baffled and angered by my protestations.

maybe if i had what the describe as 11 stone out of control dogs i would understand better but i took steps early to make sure my guy was gonna be well behaved on lead by the time we arrived at a stage where he is stronger than me.

i'm gonn ahave to give up on that thread or i'll get booted off the forum or not have any of them answer my other questions anymore (although i'm beginning to value their info less based on their attitudes on thsi topic)

Morganna

Exhibited and worked obedience since the 1960s/70s and they werent heard of then .Now they seem to be a neccesety what is wrong with people

cloudy day

Have never seen one, have they huge sharp spikes that dig into the dogs neck and make it bleed, like a true torture device from the middle ages ?

Skillie

cloudy day wrote: »

Have never seen one, have they huge sharp spikes that dig into the dogs neck and make it bleed, like a true torture device from the middle ages ?

http://www.ehow.com/video_2348829_fit-prong-collar-dog-youre.html

kildara

Can I ask if anybody criticising these have actually used these collars to base their opinions on or if these opinions are based purely on what the collars look like? (They dont look great I do admit)

I have researched these collars and read alot of good things about them. There was some research done that examined dogs (after they died) that had used these collars and also dogs that had been trained using the choke chain (possibly even martingale collar) and basically it concluded that far fewer dogs trained on the prong collar suffered from neck injuries.

I think (although stand to be corrected) that the pinch that these collars produce, is similar to the nip given by a mother to a pup's scruff and this is what the dog associates the collar to.

The prongs are also distributed over a wide area of the dogs neck and so do not (or should not) stick into the dog like a pin.

Oh, just to be clear - I DO NOT USE ONE! Just thought I would try to balance the argument out a wee bit! If people have used the prong collar and found it to be cruel, sore, etc, I would easily take that on board, but as it is I, personally, would not judge someone that uses one.

Besides, a cattle prod is much more effective.
^Joke!

peasant

kildara wrote: »

I think (although stand to be corrected) that the pinch that these collars produce, is similar to the nip given by a mother to a pup's scruff and this is what the dog associates the collar to.

That's a nice way to dress it up.
It's painful. And the dog is not stupid ...if there is no mother present, then the pain can't be associated with her. :rolleyes:

Training whith pain is a two edged sword:

- Yes, there are cases when a short, sharp pinch (or whatever you want to call it) will shock the dog out of the excited state it's in and make it responsive to your commands again

BUT

- The dog may also associate the pain with whatever is getting it excited in the first place. Example: dog meets favourite enemy, dog lunges into the prong collar for an attack while still one hundred percent focussed on enemy number one. Now there is pain ...and the enemy ...pain,enemy...enemy = pain. All you have achieved now is that the next attack on the favourite enemy is going to be even more furious. All ends in an ever increasing spiral of chaos.

- If the dog is out of control due to fear / insecurity, add pain to that and you get a dog that switches from defensive barking and growling towards a full blown self-defense attack and in case of a big, strong dog no pokey prong collar is going to stop it from doing real damage. If anything the constant pain round the neck is only going to encourage it. And if the dog is really clever, it'll figure out that the pain is coming from you ...in that case ...good luck !

cloudy day

kildara wrote: »

Can I ask if anybody criticising these have actually used these collars to base their opinions on or if these opinions are based purely on what the collars look like? (They dont look great I do admit)

I have researched these collars and read alot of good things about them. There was some research done that examined dogs (after they died) that had used these collars and also dogs that had been trained using the choke chain (possibly even martingale collar) and basically it concluded that far fewer dogs trained on the prong collar suffered from neck injuries.

I think (although stand to be corrected) that the pinch that these collars produce, is similar to the nip given by a mother to a pup's scruff and this is what the dog associates the collar to.

The prongs are also distributed over a wide area of the dogs neck and so do not (or should not) stick into the dog like a pin.

Oh, just to be clear - I DO NOT USE ONE! Just thought I would try to balance the argument out a wee bit! If people have used the prong collar and found it to be cruel, sore, etc, I would easily take that on board, but as it is I, personally, would not judge someone that uses one.

Besides, a cattle prod is much more effective.
^Joke!

I see the pic now. Not spikes at all then then dig in the dog and torture him.

I understand what you are saying.

Pressure is not the same as pain.

And tbh, unless someone has actual experience training dogs and hands on experience of using them I fail to understand how they can comment ?

peasant

cloudy day wrote: »

And tbh, unless someone has actual ...hands on experience of using them I fail to understand how they can comment ?

I don't need to actually stick my hand into a flame to know that it'll hurt and that it's not a good idea

Skillie

kildara wrote: »

Can I ask if anybody criticising these have actually used these collars to base their opinions on or if these opinions are based purely on what the collars look like? (They dont look great I do admit)

I have researched these collars and read alot of good things about them. There was some research done that examined dogs (after they died) that had used these collars and also dogs that had been trained using the choke chain (possibly even martingale collar) and basically it concluded that far fewer dogs trained on the prong collar suffered from neck injuries.

I think (although stand to be corrected) that the pinch that these collars produce, is similar to the nip given by a mother to a pup's scruff and this is what the dog associates the collar to.

The prongs are also distributed over a wide area of the dogs neck and so do not (or should not) stick into the dog like a pin.

Oh, just to be clear - I DO NOT USE ONE! Just thought I would try to balance the argument out a wee bit! If people have used the prong collar and found it to be cruel, sore, etc, I would easily take that on board, but as it is I, personally, would not judge someone that uses one.

Besides, a cattle prod is much more effective.
^Joke!

agreed they are not as bad as chokers but thats like saying slapping someone is ok cos it would be worse if you were hitting them with a stick.

as for the mothers nip thing thats absolute garbage and is right up there with The Dog Whisperers magic sshh hand nip. A mothers disciplining of a pup would seldom if ever produce pain, dogs mostly posture, gesture and threat but the amount of times an actual bite is delivered even in a fight situaton is fairly low. Its more psychological than anything. Even if a mothers nip of a pup was similar when a dog is fully grown and he's getting nipped when walking hes not gonna think "oh thats my mother telling me i'm bold"

i have never used one but i don't think you need to; to realise that there are far far better ways of arriving at having a well disciplined and controlled dog without using such a device. it does not have skin puncturing spikes no but it does pinch and drag the skin and as a result it can cause pain. these have been researched and condemned by modern day forward thinking dog behaviour experts, there are always those who stick to the old fashioned ways of training and disciplining dogs by bullying and scaring/hurting their dogs but these ways could and should be a thing of the past.

http://ipdta.org/Findings.html#Pinch_(Prong)_Collars

all i know is i've never used one, we have a 9 stone newf who is rambuncious at times and when he was younger we recognised he needed to be trained out of pulling /dragging (which he did a lot) etc while he was still small enough to not cause a problem. This was done but stopping on the walk anytime he did so, turning away from what he was pulling towards, praising, treating, rubbing when behaving etc. I don't know if we've arrived at having a well behaved dog by luck or by effort but all i know is we have not used any physically reprimanding device and are at a stage where he is now huge and would cause probs if he was out of control but he is not he is well behaved and does not need anything bar words and positive reinforcement

Killme00

Skillie wrote: »

Jaysus, i wouldnt want that around my neck. I know two people that use them.

The first is an eastern european man who uses it on his huge rottie. He is such a gentle dog around females. When my Ellie was a pup he would lie on his back and let her jump and him. He was very aggressive towards male dogs though.

The second is a close friend of mine with two gsd's. The use of this collar was recommended by the gsd club that he is a member of, one of the members even ordered it from Germany for him. His dogs are very good on the lead but can get overly excited around other dogs.

In both cases i think the owners use the leads as a safety first approach. If said dogs did make a leap for another dog then the use of this collar would stop them quickly in their tracks, giving the owner more time to react properly. When they walk as normal the collar isnt sticking into them so i would say that they hardly know that it is there.

It would be torture if the prongs were sticking into the dogs neck at all times but that is simply not the case. Also, the dont pierce the skin as some of you are saying.

Skillie

Killme00 wrote: »

Jaysus, i wouldnt want that around my neck. I know two people that use them.

The first is an eastern european man who uses it on his huge rottie. He is such a gentle dog around females. When my Ellie was a pup he would lie on his back and let her jump and him. He was very aggressive towards male dogs though.

The second is a close friend of mine with two gsd's. The use of this collar was recommended by the gsd club that he is a member of, one of the members even ordered it from Germany for him. His dogs are very good on the lead but can get overly excited around other dogs.

In both cases i think the owners use the leads as a safety first approach. If said dogs did make a leap for another dog then the use of this collar would stop them quickly in their tracks, giving the owner more time to react properly. When they walk as normal the collar isnt sticking into them so i would say that they hardly know that it is there.

It would be torture if the prongs were sticking into the dogs neck at all times but that is simply not the case. Also, the dont pierce the skin as some of you are saying.

agreed they don't pierce the skin or stick in all the time. i would be more tolerant of these if they were used as a redundant backup collar in a double lead setup whereby its employed in a state of emergency only. i still feel you can arrive at the situation where your dog does not have these triggers and responses to those situations by training and positive methods though thus rendering the collar unneccessary and the dog trained and behaving the way you want.

Education is the key i met a man last night with a collie cross on a choke chain and i asked him why and was he aware of the damage it could cause and had he tried training her with treats or any other method instead? no pint lecturing him cos people just get defensive i asked the question and left it at that. Tends to be the more tradional hardman dogs you see these on alright like rotties and gsds etc which is a shame as these dogs are very trainable if this was the last port of call instead of the first.

made me very sad recently on holiday in spain when i saw a golden on one, he was sniffing some flowers and rather than call the dogs name the girl just yanked the leash hard there is no excuse for that. even in their "proper" function prong collars are to be a training aid a short term stop gap solution while trying to remdy a problem behaviour but people seem to just use them indeffinately

Killme00

Skillie wrote: »

i still feel you can arrive at the situation where your dog does not have these triggers and responses to those situations by training and positive methods though thus rendering the collar unneccessary and the dog trained and behaving the way you want.

I agree

Skillie wrote: »

made me very sad recently on holiday in spain when i saw a golden on one, he was sniffing some flowers and rather than call the dogs name the girl just yanked the leash hard there is no excuse for that. even in their "proper" function prong collars are to be a training aid a short term stop gap solution while trying to remdy a problem behaviour but people seem to just use them indeffinately

You see this with all types of leads / collars not just choke chains or prong collars.

Skillie

Killme00 wrote: »

You see this with all types of leads / collars not just choke chains or prong collars.

and it is wrong with all types of leads/collars its unpleasantness with a prong collar on would be worse than a flat collar though

kildara

peasant wrote: »

That's a nice way to dress it up.
It's painful. And the dog is not stupid ...if there is no mother present, then the pain can't be associated with her.

I'm not trying to dress it up. I am merely stating what I thought to be the case.

peasant wrote: »

If anything the constant pain round the neck is only going to encourage it.

There shouldn't be constant pain around the dog’s neck. It should be fitted snugly, although admittedly it may be slightly tighter than a normal collar (in order to keep it in place), but it should not be so tight as to cause continuous pain to the animal.

Skillie wrote: »

as for the mothers nip thing thats absolute garbage and is right up there with The Dog Whisperers magic sshh hand nip. A mothers disciplining of a pup would seldom if ever produce pain, dogs mostly posture, gesture and threat but the amount of times an actual bite is delivered even in a fight situaton is fairly low. Its more psychological than anything. Even if a mothers nip of a pup was similar when a dog is fully grown and he's getting nipped when walking hes not gonna think "oh thats my mother telling me i'm bold"

peasant wrote: »

if there is no mother present, then the pain can't be associated with her.

I accept your argument with regard to this. I'm still learning!
I had just read this (numerous times). Just like when a pup nips you, you should let out a yelp so the dog knows he hurt you, like his litter-mates would do... surely the pup will realise you ain’t no litter-mate?!

Skillie wrote: »

http://ipdta.org/Findings.html#Pinch_(Prong)_Collars

Thanks for this.
Nice to see some proper literature rather than what is usually out there, submitted by the anti-prong brigade who seem to base their opinions purely on what the item looks like.

Killme00

Skillie wrote: »

and it is wrong with all types of leads/collars its unpleasantness with a prong collar on would be worse than a flat collar though

the point is the same though

Skillie

kildara wrote: »

I accept your argument with regard to this. I'm still learning!
I had just read this (numerous times). Just like when a pup nips you, you should let out a yelp so the dog knows he hurt you, like his litter-mates would do... surely the pup will realise you ain’t no litter-mate?!

Well you have a good attitude to learning which means the more you dig the more you'll learn.

you are right when a puppy nips to make a big deal about it not neccessarily having to sound like a litter mate but let them know its not on. this is to teach them bite inhibition and thus learn how to use their mouth without hurting everyone and anyone while playing etc. A mother being all growed up will already have developed her bite inhibition and which is why she can nip at them etc without actually harming them. Our newf learned his from our retriever they would playfight like mad and at the start he would always get over exhuberant and hurt her she would get mad as hell with him but not hurt him and he would always come back with an appologetic face licking before the play resumed.

see them below when he was a pup and again when he was 10 months, now hes much bigger than her and they play fight just as much but never hurt each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86gpLMn6Tng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRemMYojf6g

biko

Killme00 wrote: »

It would be torture if the prongs were sticking into the dogs neck at all times but that is simply not the case. Also, the dont pierce the skin as some of you are saying.

It does look like not too comfortable:

How to Fit a Prong Collar


The correct position for a prong collar is to sit right behind the ears and up under the jaw line like you see in the photo above. The photo shows how many people mistakenly let a dog wear a prong.



This collar is correctly sized and fits properly.
The rings on the leash are attached to the right place on the side of the neck.


I would suggest something like this, if the dog pulls hard it gets off balance

peasant

kildara wrote: »

There shouldn't be constant pain around the dog’s neck. It should be fitted snugly, although admittedly it may be slightly tighter than a normal collar (in order to keep it in place), but it should not be so tight as to cause continuous pain to the animal.

The pain would be constant and continous however while the dog is pulling fully at the lead and the chain is constricted.

This is what I was referring to.

While the dog is lunging into the lead it is experiencing pain ...so if it is really raging (for whatever reason) the pain is constant, increasing the rage.

Skillie

the variety of harnesses, collars and leads etc are there to contain symptoms of the problem, with training from an early age problems shouldn't arise and when they do training again should be able to combat them.

the man i met last night was a desperately nice fella and i believe he just got the choke chain for the dog out of knowing no better so its hard to combat that

kildara

peasant wrote: »

The pain would be constant and continous however while the dog is pulling fully at the lead and the chain is constricted.

This is what I was referring to.

While the dog is lunging into the lead it is experiencing pain ...so if it is really raging (for whatever reason) the pain is constant, increasing the rage.

So would that make it any worse then than a choke chain?

Is the idea behind these that when the dogs feels the pinch it stops doing whatever it is that it shouldnt be doing? Therefore the dog shouldn't be pulling repeatedly or continually on the lead.

As a matter of interest, what would you recommend?

I use the half-check, martingale type collar for ours. Recommended by the obedience class instructor. It works (generally) by the sound of the "check" as opposed to the choking of a full choke collar.
I will not be cruel to our dogs, which is why I will not use a full choke chain - which in my opinion is worse than a prong collar.

Skillie

kildara wrote: »

So would that make it any worse then than a choke chain?

Is the idea behind these that when the dogs feels the pinch it stops doing whatever it is that it shouldnt be doing? Therefore the dog shouldn't be pulling repeatedly or continually on the lead.

As a matter of interest, what would you recommend?

I use the half-check, martingale type collar for ours. Recommended by the obedience class instructor. It works (generally) by the sound of the "check" as opposed to the choking of a full choke collar.
I will not be cruel to our dogs, which is why I will not use a full choke chain - which in my opinion is worse than a prong collar.

what kind of dog do you have?

could you contain him/her with a normal collar or harness while training loose leash walking, google it there are lots of ways to get there and make your life better by not having a dog who pulls on leash

check out this guy Ian dunbar he is fantastic and has a great website full of valuable resources called

dogstardaily.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOW0IKO_zfM

kildara

Skillie wrote: »

what kind of dog do you have?

13 month old Shar Pei, male.
And a 7 month old Rottweiler, bitch.

We have them both at obedience classes - him moreso for socialisation as he's not very good with other males. He will pull like crazy when he see's another dog which is why I dont like using any of these "choke" methods. We got that Cesar Milan one (please forgive me!) - worst thing ever. First night on it he kicked off at another dog, and once he gets into this zone, he wont give up, but he almost passed out as a result of pulling on it. That is pretty much a full choke but uses a very narrow nylone strip as the choker part of it. Threw it out immediately.
Now we try to avoid any instances where he will get into this "red-zone". He's getting much better, but we will, inevitably, come across a strange dog and he'll kick off, which is when I want something that will work to prevent him pulling.
I've heard good things about an EasyLead I think it was called which will pull the dogs head down when he pulls away from you, but I dont want to go and buy one just cos easylead.co says its great!

Your boy is a cracker by the way!