Prong/Pinch Collars - Opinions??

peasant

kildara wrote: »

Is the idea behind these that when the dogs feels the pinch it stops doing whatever it is that it shouldnt be doing? Therefore the dog shouldn't be pulling repeatedly or continually on the lead.

As a matter of interest, what would you recommend?

I use the half-check, martingale type collar for ours. Recommended by the obedience class instructor. It works (generally) by the sound of the "check" as opposed to the choking of a full choke collar.
I will not be cruel to our dogs, which is why I will not use a full choke chain - which in my opinion is worse than a prong collar.

At the end of the day there are three goals to be achieved:
- train and generally control the dog
- interrupt/stop unwanted behaviour
- keep a secure hold on the dog in case of emergency.

For the first two, I use commands and signals that have been ingrained into daily life with the dog through constant training and repetition.

For the last situation the dog has a harness.


I fail to understand why people always see the need for yet another tool to put between themselves and the dog, be that a choke chain or a clicker.

You've got your voice and your body language. That and time is all that's needed.

kildara

peasant wrote: »

At the end of the day there are three goals to be achieved:
- train and generally control the dog
- interrupt/stop unwanted behaviour
- keep a secure hold on the dog in case of emergency.

For the first two, I use commands and signals that have been ingrained into daily life with the dog through constant training and repetition.

For the last situation the dog has a harness.


I fail to understand why people always see the need for yet another tool to put between themselves and the dog, be that a choke chain or a clicker.

You've got your voice and your body language. That and time is all that's needed.

That is fine once the dog is trained. What do you propose should be used as a training aid while the dog is still young / being trained?
As mentioned above, I use a martingale collar, but as an aid - ie, the noise of the check is to attempt the get the dogs attention, to snap them out of whatever it was that took their attention away from you in the first place, then command and move on.
I dont need the martingale if I am in the back garden and the dog is giving me his/her full attention, but I do feel that I need it when out walking.
I would love to have them walk on a nice, loose, collar and lead, but in the meantime, while they are still being trained, that is not always possible.

peasant

Why do you need to buy a special collar that makes a "click" ?

Can you not snap your fingers/ clap your hands / stomp your foot/ whistle / shout / yell / whisper ??

Or the other way round ...why should a clicking collar be more effective than you? Because it's expensive ?

kildara

peasant wrote: »

Why do you need to buy a special collar that makes a "click" ?

Can you not snap your fingers/ clap your hands / stomp your foot/ whistle / shout / yell / whisper ??

Or the other way round ...why should a clicking collar be more effective than you? Because it's expensive ?

snap your fingers - two hands are on the lead
clap your hands - again, two hands on the lead
stomp your foot - dog wont hear that outside
whistle - I could whistle I suppose, OH cant
yell - yep, could yell, but timing is key, so a quick tug of the lead makes a clicking noise instantly
whisper - will your dogs listen to you whispering if it wants to do something else? Cos mine certainly wont.

Its not a special, clicking collar. Its a leather collar with chain in the middle. I need some sort of collar on the dogs and this is no more expensive than a normal, nice leather collar - so its certainly not an expensive item issue.

Are you saying then that you dont use anything to help in your training of your dogs? Or you dont recommend anything other than yourself whistling, clicking your fingers etc?

peasant

kildara wrote: »

Are you saying then that you dont use anything to help in your training of your dogs? Or you dont recommend anything other than yourself whistling, clicking your fingers etc?

Yepp ...that's exactly what I'm saying, and I've learned it the hard way as well. If you look around our attic and other places where we stash away old crap you will find all manner of "training aids" ...choke chains, all manners of "leader" collars, a really loud whistle and I think there even is a clicker somewhere.

It's all just useless, expensive crap.

Training a dog is a long, continous process. You and the dog need to learn to understand each other and to work with each other. There are no quick fixes.
Consistency and constant repetition are the only way to achieve success.

Introducing training aids that interfere with the direct contact between you and your dog only prolong the agony

kildara

peasant wrote: »

Yepp ...that's exactly what I'm saying, and I've learned it the hard way as well. If you look around our attic and other places where we stash away old crap you will find all manner of "training aids" ...choke chains, all manners of "leader" collars, a really loud whistle and I think there even is a clicker somewhere.

It's all just useless, expensive crap.

Training a dog is a long, continous process. You and the dog need to learn to understand each other and to work with each other. There are no quick fixes.
Consistency and constant repetition are the only way to achieve success.

Introducing training aids that interfere with the direct contact between you and your dog only prolong the agony

I hope to get to your stage eventually.
I think the rotty would get by on what you have suggested but feel the dog, in the meantime, needs something to snap him out of it when he is going ball-headed at another dog.
I feel taking him out of that situation altogether is the best way to do it but that is not always possible, and how will he ever "get used to it" if he never meets other dogs?

Anyway, thanks for the advice.

peasant

kildara wrote: »

...the dog, in the meantime, needs something to snap him out of it when he is going ball-headed at another dog.
I feel taking him out of that situation altogether is the best way to do it but that is not always possible, and how will he ever "get used to it" if he never meets other dogs?

Taking him out of the situation / avoiding the situation in the first place is the best thing to do.

Take him out whenever he goes berserk ...the message might just sink in that if he doesn't, he'll get to stay. Praise him for as long as he stays calm when there is another dog in sight, remove/correct him on the first sign of dissent. He'll get the message eventually.

It won't happen tomorrow ...but it will happen over time.


Things to keep in mind in stressful situations like this:

Work on your own excitement first ...you know what's coming, you know what's going to happen, you're thinking ..oh no, not again and you'll tense up in anticipation of the unpleasantness. Find a way to be cool about it. The tenser you are, the more OTT your dog will be ...the cooler you are, the bigger the chance your dog will remain responsive.


Don't forget the praise! In tense situations all we (humans) tend to think/worry about is how to control the situation, how and when to correct the dog, where to escape to, etc, etc. The dog senses this and gets tense itself.
Keep cool and praise the dog as long as it keeps cool itself coming up to the encounter, re-assure it it's doing the right thing by remaining calm, keep the dog focussed on you and praise it for doing so ....quickly remove the dog once things run out of control and then praise again once normalcy has returned.

andreac

[QUOTE=peasant;60877080

You've got your voice and your body language. That and time is all that's needed.[/QUOTE]


Im sorry, but voice and body language alone are not going to train a 50kg rottie, i own one and i can vouch for that.
A little chuck of a collar or whatever is on them is not cruel and does not hurt them.
Have you tried training a 50kg rottie with your voice and body language?

Skillie

andreac wrote: »

Im sorry, but voice and body language alone are not going to train a 50kg rottie, i own one and i can vouch for that.
A little chuck of a collar or whatever is on them is not cruel and does not hurt them.
Have you tried training a 50kg rottie with your voice and body language?

should have been trained before he was 50kg if you've had him from a pup then thats when the measures should be taken to lay foundations for reliable behaviour when fully grown

andreac

Sorry, but i have trained my rottie from a pup, im talking about a full grown rottie in general. My fella has never pulled as i had him trained from day one!!

I was only saying that a 50kg rottie, who needs to be trained is not going to respond to voice and body language alone.

peasant

andreac wrote: »

Im sorry, but voice and body language alone are not going to train a 50kg rottie, i own one and i can vouch for that.
A little chuck of a collar or whatever is on them is not cruel and does not hurt them.
Have you tried training a 50kg rottie with your voice and body language?

Well, to look at it the other way round ...if your incapable to handle a 50kg Rottie just with your voice and your body then maybe you should consider getting a smaller dog.

Seriously ...one major issue I have with any and all training aids is what happens if and when you don't have them with you ?

You get the dog trained to a prong collar to stop it from lunging at things and you might even be successful at it, the dog doesn't lunge anymore once it wears the collar.

But what do you do when your at home in your living room and the dog suddenly decides to go for your visitor?

Run and get the prong collar?:D

Skillie

andreac wrote: »

Sorry, but i have trained my rottie from a pup, im talking about a full grown rottie in general. My fella has never pulled as i had him trained from day one!!

I was only saying that a 50kg rottie, who needs to be trained is not going to respond to voice and body language alone.

excellent then you have prooved the point perfectly that prong collars et al are not required by doing it the correct way from day one.

kildara

Skillie wrote: »

excellent then you have prooved the point perfectly that prong collars et al are not required by doing it the correct way from day one.

But what if the dog wasnt correctly trained from Day 1?
A rescue dog, or just a dog that takes longer to train but still get as big quick (Great Danes or your own Newfie for examples)?

(I mean a large quick-growing dog that is difficult to train, not saying the above breeds are better or worse than any other)

peasant

kildara wrote: »

But what if the dog wasnt correctly trained from Day 1?
A rescue dog, or just a dog that takes longer to train but still get as big quick

The collection of useless training aides mentioned above stems from training a 35 kg rescued OES mix aged 18 months and in the full throws of "teenage rebellion"

kildara

peasant wrote: »

The collection of useless training aides mentioned above stems from training a 35 kg rescued OES mix aged 18 months and in the full throws of "teenage rebellion"

I have to wait till 18 months for teenage rebellion. Jebus help me!:D

Skillie

kildara wrote: »

But what if the dog wasnt correctly trained from Day 1?
A rescue dog, or just a dog that takes longer to train but still get as big quick (Great Danes or your own Newfie for examples)?

(I mean a large quick-growing dog that is difficult to train, not saying the above breeds are better or worse than any other)

aha then we're getting into chicken and egg territory aren't we!? i had stated if you have a dog from puppyhood then training from day one will make collars like this a thing of the past.

If you inherit a dog that is a terror or didn't do the early training then its more difficult but even with my newf i can contain him on those rare occassions where he gets unruley with his harness.

He grew quickly but we trained him early and continue to do so it is never over.

to give you specifics he adores our golden who is 5 and all he ever wants to do is spend time with her and play etc. so when we went on walks she walks off leash as she is impeccibly behaved and he walks on leash unless there will be noone or no dogs around. this is due to the fact that some people are afraid of him or fear he will eat their dogs!! so off whil ethe coast is clear on when we see someone. early on this him on leash and his favourite dog in the world running free drove him nuts so we knew his habbit of pulling to get to her must be broken before he gets to strong to control. to do this we would use the traffic light system, he pulls we stop, he walks loose leash we proceed, he gets too unruley or tries to drag towards her or another dog we change direction to the prize, he behaves we turn back towards it. he walks calmly loose leash he gets praise, rubs, tastey treats etc. this was the way from a very early age and also he would not be allowed his off leash forays till he was being manerly. also we used molly at times on leash next to him to teach him the way. This never stops and is still the way today he is on leash she is off and unless the coast is clear. last night they were both off as a couple came towards us. i called him with the lead in my hand he walked back to me and stood for me to hook him on and gave him a treat. This leashing him is just to reassure them that they will not be mauled by a bear!!
oviously if we got him at this size from a shelter it would be harder but physically still possible to train out of it using harness or gentl leader etc

andreac

Skillie wrote: »

excellent then you have prooved the point perfectly that prong collars et al are not required by doing it the correct way from day one.

By the way, i wasnt saying that prong collars are good, in fact the complete opposite, they are disgusting horrible pieces of equipment which i would never use on any animal!

I was only saying that its hard to train a big dog with just voice and body language alone.

Are you saying that you never put any pressure on leads/collars when training a dog to walk? And when i say pressure i dont mean pulling the dog all over the place, i mean even gentle pressure.

Skillie

andreac wrote: »

By the way, i wasnt saying that prong collars are good, in fact the complete opposite, they are disgusting horrible pieces of equipment which i would never use on any animal!

I was only saying that its hard to train a big dog with just voice and body language alone.

Are you saying that you never put any pressure on leads/collars when training a dog to walk? And when i say pressure i dont mean pulling the dog all over the place, i mean even gentle pressure.

never required on the retriever and on the newf its inevitable at times because he is young and full of life and still not perfectly mannered which is why i use the harness around his chest because even with a normal canvas collar the pressure his strength would exert would unacceptible to me to have forced on his neck. by gentle pressure then of course as guidance but never anything that would cause, pain, injury, restriction of air etc etc etc

andreac

Sorry Skillie, i think it was someone else that said they only use body language and voice. Thats why i was just asking do they never put any pressure on a collar or lead while training a dog.

I would find it hard to believe that this never happens as its inevitable that some sort of pressure will be put on the dog while training the dog to walk.

A quick pull of a collar isnt painful though and wouldnt cause an injury.

peasant

andreac wrote: »

Sorry Skillie, i think it was someone else that said they only use body language and voice. Thats why i was just asking do they never put any pressure on a collar or lead while training a dog.

Yepp, that was me.

Of course there are occassions when there is pressure put on the harness (no collars here) either by me or by the dog ...but the harness doesn't hurt or pinch.

BTW ...body language (at least in my book) also encompasses thinks like pushing or blocking. As long as it's not violent, painful, brutal or needless there is nothing wrong with getting a bit physical now and then.

andreac

I use a dogmatic at the moment and i find it brilliant, my fella doesnt pull, he never really did anyway.
They are much better than the halti and dont pinch or cause any pain.

Yeah i hear you with body language, and also positive rewards too. My fella is very responsive to my voice, i started training when he was very young and it has def paid off.
Hes by no means perfect, but people do comment that hes very well behaved for the size of him. You just cant let a dog that size get out of control.

cloudy day

andreac wrote: »

Im sorry, but voice and body language alone are not going to train a 50kg rottie, i own one and i can vouch for that.
A little chuck of a collar or whatever is on them is not cruel and does not hurt them.
Have you tried training a 50kg rottie with your voice and body language?

Agreed

cloudy day

Skillie wrote: »

http://www.ehow.com/video_2348829_fit-prong-collar-dog-youre.html

Okay. I'm a new anti prong collar person. Didn't know what they were but now having seen one in the flesh, on a dog, sorry but if it's a short coated dog, then they are just torture.

I did think, maybe they just apply light pressure to chechk the dog, like a chain, and that on a very thick coated dog they may not be the same.

I was at a show on Sat and saw a man with a rottie, rather fat, unfit looking - the dog, and it had on one of these collars. I go over say hi, and stroke the dog and slip my hand inside the collar, ouch, they have to hurt the dog. Observing the dog from afar it also seemed he sat like a statue most of the time, maybe like he was afraid to move.

On the other side, there were a pair of dogs there with their peeps, and everytime they saw another dog, went nutso, no control at all.

So big thumbs down from me on the prong collars.

Skillie

cloudy day wrote: »

Okay. I'm a new anti prong collar person. Didn't know what they were but now having seen one in the flesh, on a dog, sorry but if it's a short coated dog, then they are just torture.

I did think, maybe they just apply light pressure to chechk the dog, like a chain, and that on a very thick coated dog they may not be the same.

I was at a show on Sat and saw a man with a rottie, rather fat, unfit looking - the dog, and it had on one of these collars. I go over say hi, and stroke the dog and slip my hand inside the collar, ouch, they have to hurt the dog. Observing the dog from afar it also seemed he sat like a statue most of the time, maybe like he was afraid to move.

On the other side, there were a pair of dogs there with their peeps, and everytime they saw another dog, went nutso, no control at all.

So big thumbs down from me on the prong collars.

thanks for the feedback, i think they do look worse than they prob are but that doesn't make them pleasnt now does it. the more i read on these the more i am against them.

I have had to bow out of the thread over on the newfoundland forum because i am outnumbered by about 50 against 2 of us and i'm blue in the face and getting nowhere. they are all so blindly defensive stating how they could not have their dogs without them and the are getting so offended and hurt that i would insinuate they are cruel and hurting their "babies" there is no way of reasoning with them and i just had to give up before loosing my temper.

They just don't seem to accept that proper training in positive methods would have their newfs (gentle giants anyway) as well behaved and manageable as can be without the need for this and they are in shock if you suggest they are using draconian methods with these collars. Insisting the collar doesn't hurt, it would not be such a miracle worker and make such a difference if it did not hurt its so frustrating.

i'm glad most people this side of the atlantic are of a different mindframe

JackF

personally i think you people are making way to big a deal of this , i have one and its not a medival torture device for dogs as a few are saying ,
its a simple pronged collar that dosent stick into the dogs neck , the prongs arent sharp there blunt (and if you get one thats sharp, file it down) it simply applys a small ammount of pressure to stop the dog pulling you down the road

peasant

JackF wrote: »

personally i think you people are making way to big a deal of this , i have one and its not a medival torture device for dogs as a few are saying ,
its a simple pronged collar that dosent stick into the dogs neck , the prongs arent sharp there blunt (and if you get one thats sharp, file it down) it simply applys a small ammount of pressure to stop the dog pulling you down the road

Try putting the chain round your neck and the other end of the lead on your dog next time ...and then come again

Skillie

JackF wrote: »

personally i think you people are making way to it simply applys a small ammount of pressure to stop the dog pulling you down the road

where is the sense in this statement i'm sick of pinch users using this line "it applies pressure" this isn't massage here its metal pinching skin if it did not hurt the dog it would not work. gentle pressure does not make a big out of contol dog stop pulling, pain does.

JackF

i dont believe that i shoudnt replace an origanal collar , i only use one because i have two grown german shephards , and i think its better than risking the dog mauling the face off another dog and having to put my dog down

Whispered

You have a dog that would maul the face off another, whilst being walked on a lead? :eek: Have you had him since a pup? If so, maybe your training methods (ie. train through pain) have something to do with your dogs agressive tendancies?

fatmammycat

JackF wrote: »

i dont believe that i shoudnt replace an origanal collar , i only use one because i have two grown german shephards , and i think its better than risking the dog mauling the face off another dog and having to put my dog down

Jesus, you know, if you trained and socialised your dogs there would be NO fear of them 'mauling the face' off another dog. Sticking a painful contraption on them to cover bad training is one thing, coming on here and wittering about people who DO take the time to train their dogs properly 'overreacting' is another. Prong collars are designed to cause your dog discomfort, this is what makes the poor animal heel and not pull. If you use it at least don't make stupid excuses to cover it.