Empire magazine's "100 Greatest Games" list

Azza

Yeah LoGiE but its the internetzer thingie and you can't loose an internet debate because there so important to our ego's you know!

I think the best thing is just to call it a draw and agree to disagree. We are not going covince the other party around to our way of thinking.

BLITZ_Molloy

Top 100 lists are retarded. How do you decide how to rate Halo 3 against Mario 3 against Tetris? You can't. It's unbelievably stupid to try.

The way to do it is genre specific lists. And even then I'd just make it a '10 best' list rather than ranking the games against each other.

If it's genre specific then there's also the possibility that it could be compiled by one person who'd played all the games. If it's done by a committee or a public vote which just gives you a list of the best selling games of all time because more people have played those.

Retr0gamer

Yeah thats a massive problem for me with these lists when they are compiled by commitee or the public which is usually worse. The lists end up filled with the most popular games and not necessarily the most deserving. Case in point Final Fantasy 7 usually ranks very high on these lists. I've played dozens of JRPGs and for me it's not even the best game in the genre, maybe slightly above average. Superior games like Grandia, Suikoden 2, Persona 3 etc. are ignored in favour of it since they aren't as popular. I don't think I've met anyone who has played Panzer Dragoon Saga and wouldn't rank it way higher than FFVII, it's just so few people have.

I do like you're idea of ranking them according to genre but there's so much crosss over now that it's impossible as well.

Perrin

Maybe a poll/list should be done here?

NeoKubrick

Azza wrote: »

Point 1 is a joke, stay in denial. Moving an inch to the left or to the right does not change the fact that your doing the same thing. Moving beyond rock B rather than tree C for cover does not make the game open ended.

Azza wrote:

so you just put you head in the sand and pretend the concept does not exsist and go 'lalalalalalal I can't hear you'.

The Halo series is not a linear game. It has non-linear gameplay. Now, the onus is on you prove that the gameplay is linear and that each player plays in the exact same manner. I'm still waiting. You can't prove it, of course, because the gameplay, the biggest chunk of the game, is non-linear, the storyline is linear, and the levels alternate between linear and non-linear. To ignore the majority of the game, and label on the basis of the minority is idiotic, and you're only parroting what other dilettantes said.

You said:

Azza wrote:

If the game had decent weapons and music, I would remember them.

So, if there was one particular track that you did like, you would have remembered and mentioned it, and then say that the rest of the music is average. You didn't. The fact that you didn't remember that the game had a good in your own words, "main music theme" nullifies your ridiculous argument about memory and quality. The memory is subjective: it's not an objective indicator without fault.

Generally, if I'm to dislike a game, I have to base that on solid evidence, reasons, and logic. If I don't and dislike it anyway, first, I could be depraving myself of an enjoyable experience, and second, my opinion is based upon ignorance (I could be right or wrong, but it's pure guesswork because I've no logical reason to support my opinion). The reason for disliking a game could be as simple as "I don't like this genre", and that would be enough for me to dislike a RTS game and not play it, but it wouldn't be enough for me to logically counter a RTS enthusiast's argument which would be based upon a lot more than a preference. There's a difference.


A game has to challenge the player on some level; otherwise the game will become boring. That's a maxim. That isn't up for debate. It's natural. First, I don't know what situation you're referring to but if the one-hand refers to farming experience, it's is a means to an end: means being leveling up and end, defeating a tough boss (the obstacle, challenge). Second, World of Warcraft is a multiplayer game, and therefore the appeal of playing could be the social aspect, not the game itself, which is why I haven't included multiplayer in this debate, because multiplayer is either a social and/or competitive venue for gamers.

This debate was always about singleplayer FPSs; so, I didn't suddenly change it to solely that. It wouldn't have hurt my argument to include the Halo series' multiplayer. The Halo series has been the backbone of the incredible success Major League Gaming has had in an industry which has seen organizations fold with alarming regularity. Halo 3 is on the official line-up for Multiplay's I-Series, the biggest PC LAN event in the UK. There are only two PC FPS games which can compete with the competitive success Halo 3 has had. It was your misunderstanding that this discussion was related to multiplayer games: it wasn't, and it isn't.


In general, you haven't understood a lot of what's been said. There is no arrogance in telling another person their opinion is invalid, if it is an invalid opinion. You can't counter an argument if you're not willing to argue on the terms set forth in the original argument. My argument (original, and argument you countered) is that played on the Legendary setting, the Halo series is one of the best FPS, and you barged into the thread and countered that by saying that you didn't think it was when you played it on lower difficulty settings. See, the error there? I know you did eventually, because you inadvertently proved that by installing the game, again, to play Legendary.

That won't help, though. Your opinion of the second playthrough is not perfectly legitimate as in legitimately objective. You have already set about your position in the argument before you played Legendary, not after as any sane individual would. Your second playthrough will be a fault-finding exercise with the aim of trying to justify your position; it will be extremely biased and subjective as any exercise whose master is your outcome, and not logic and objectivity. This is the main reason why people draw a conclusion from the evidence, instead of drawing evidence from a conclusion.

It's not allowed based upon pure common-sense and logic, not for my preference.

Azza wrote:

Your last quote is laughable implying that we are bashing Halo for having poor graphics.[...]

You mentioned the metacritic reviews; I didn't. So, any and all of the comments contained within the reviews are fair-game as you provided them for the support for your opinion of Halo (Retr0 did it directly for the Eurogamer review). Anyway, I implying that most of the reviews would base their critique on the graphical performance, as per the tendencies of PC reviewers, not the actual gameplay, because those gaming rigs need graphical juggernauts to justify the copious amounts people spend on them and magazines need that advertising money which comes from companies selling high-performance parts, right?

And I didn't disprove my statement. Seven games in the span of under two decades isn't justification for holding the PC platform on a pedestal or advancing the myth that there are a great number of great FPS for the PC or that the quality of PC FPSs overawed the Halo series. I'm not here to discuss who is better between the console and the PC, because I don't care.

Azza wrote:

We will have to agree to disagree or we will be here till the sun burns out.

We will agree that I bodied you, but in all seriousness, this discussion has run its course. I'm only repeating myself, now.

Kinetic^

NeoKubrick wrote: »

There are only two PC FPS games which can compete with the competitive success Halo 3 has had.

Please name them.

NeoKubrick

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Please name them.

It's obvious and if it wasn't, I would have been more specific. :rolleyes:

Hercule

Hey guys lets all present our opinions as concrete facts in this thread - its the new cool way to win arguments on the internet!

Presenting "facts" that are just thinly veiled opinions stinks of trolling or maybe people are just new @ internet and dont know any better.

Kinetic^

NeoKubrick wrote: »

It's obvious and if it wasn't, I would have been more specific. :rolleyes:

Can you name them please?

NeoKubrick

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Can you name them please?

Er, no. You obviously think that there is more than two. So, name them or don't.

Kinetic^

Azza wrote: »

Battlefield
Call of Duty
Half Life
Far Cry
Left 4 Dead
Quake
Team Fortress
UT

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Er, no. You obviously think that there is more than two. So, name them or don't.

I've chnaged Azza's list slightly but yeah there are more then 2, probably more missing as well. The only thing worthwhile that comes out of the halo series is the matchmaking system.

norrie rugger

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yeah thats a massive problem for me with these lists when they are compiled by commitee or the public which is usually worse. The lists end up filled with the most popular games and not necessarily the most deserving. Case in point Final Fantasy 7 usually ranks very high on these lists. I've played dozens of JRPGs and for me it's not even the best game in the genre, maybe slightly above average. Superior games like Grandia, Suikoden 2, Persona 3 etc. are ignored in favour of it since they aren't as popular. I don't think I've met anyone who has played Panzer Dragoon Saga and wouldn't rank it way higher than FFVII, it's just so few people have.

I do like you're idea of ranking them according to genre but there's so much crosss over now that it's impossible as well.

would you stop knocking FF7 in these lists.
A lot of the other games got limited/restricted releases in this teritory, or on the less popular consoles.

People can only vote on what they played. Also FF7 was the 1st game that many people went "wow" to, which opened up the entire JRPG genre to people.

Sure it has terrible flaws and gets a bit slow, out of Midgar, but I think it deserves its place based on the effect it had on people


Now, Retr0gamer, please give me a real good JRPG (in english, I only like subtitles in my movies) for the PS3. I am in the mood for something to absorb me for a few weeks

Retr0gamer

I wouldn't even give it the matchmaking system. I would much rather pick my own server from a list instead of being matchmaked into a server that every so often gives me terrible pings.

Kinetic^

Aye it's not perfect but it can work.

norrie rugger

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Er, no. You obviously think that there is more than two. So, name them or don't.

you made the statement dude, so give the games

Retr0gamer

norrie rugger wrote: »

would you stop knocking FF7 in these lists.
A lot of the other games got limited/restricted releases in this teritory, or on the less popular consoles.

People can only vote on what they played. Also FF7 was the 1st game that many people went "wow" to, which opened up the entire JRPG genre to people.

Sure it has terrible flaws and gets a bit slow, out of Midgar, but I think it deserves its place based on the effect it had on people

But isn't that the point I'm making. It was peoples first JRPG and probably the only one they have played and therefore ranks highly due to popularity. For many people JRPGs are just the Final Fantasy series. Anyone with more knowledge of the genre will tell you it's far from the best in the genre. If it's a best 100 games of all time FFVII shouldn't be ranking ahead of much better games. You never see an obscure film being left out of similar lists. I can understand it getting voted in a public list but when it's a group of experts you'd expect them to know better.

norrie rugger wrote: »

Now, Retr0gamer, please give me a real good JRPG (in english, I only like subtitles in my movies) for the PS3. I am in the mood for something to absorb me for a few weeks

You're playing the wrong console. The best you can get is Valkyria Chronicles which luckily enough is absolutely amazing. Only other one I can think of is Eternal Sonata which is good but can be a bit hit or miss for people.

Other than that if you have a way of playing PS2 games get yourself Persona 3 FES or Persona 4. I can assure you both games are far superior to FFVII.

norrie rugger

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You're playing the wrong console. The best you can get is Valkyria Chronicles which luckily enough is absolutely amazing. Only other one I can think of is Eternal Sonata which is good but can be a bit hit or miss for people.

Other than that if you have a way of playing PS2 games get yourself Persona 3 FES or Persona 4. I can assure you both games are far superior to FFVII.

I accept your point about Edge. They should have a broad spectrum panel of judges, who will know the specific sections of games


I have always heard good things about Valkyria Chronicles but never bought it. Screw that, I have just bought it now

My PS2, due to lack of use, is now going to the National Children's Hospital in Tallaght. Better some kids use it to take their mind off being sick, than it gather dust in my place

Retr0gamer

Hope you enjoy it. For me it's the best game on the PS3, it's basically the strategy RPG genre given a massive kick up the hole into modern gaming.

norrie rugger

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Hope you enjoy it. For me it's the best game on the PS3, it's basically the strategy RPG genre given a massive kick up the hole into modern gaming.

For better or worse, it is winging its way to me now.
I'll let ya know how I get on

Retr0gamer

I'm sure you'll like it. It's basically Advance Wars but ditches the grid based fighting for more real time elements.

Azza

Ignoring Neo's first paragraph because there is simply no point in replying.

Generally, if I'm to dislike a game, I have to base that on solid evidence, reasons, and logic

There is that arrogance rearing its ugly head again. Your implying your the only one capable of this. While us poor inferior beings, are easily controlled by such mysterious forces like peer pressure (its hip to bash Halo kids). Our opinions are obviously formed by illogical hatred of certain formats, thats why I own 4 consoles and for Retr0 god knows how many. You may think FPS games on console can be as good as PC FPS's and you have no problem playing the genre on either format, then thats fine you can have your opinion. I generally dislike consoles shooters for reasons previously stated. There is difference between the formats and while they may be a non issue to you, it is to me in the FPS genre and its not just for the reason of disliking a console. I'm not a fanboy I don't go bashing either format, just for the sake of it. Each format has pro's and cons and some formats for various reasons are better at certain genres. Thats why I own multipal systems so I can get the best from both. We both got to different conclusions with the same tools evidence, reason and logic, you don't have a monolopy on these and I'd imagine everyone on boards.ie is equally as capable as you of using them.

A game has to challenge the player on some level; otherwise the game will become boring. That's a maxim. That isn't up for debate. It's natural.

I'm sorry Lord Palpatine, I did not realise you where posting. How dare I challenege one of your decrees. I thought you where just another random internet person passing their opinion off as fact. I did not realise you found the 10 commandents of FPS gaming on 2 stone slabs up a hill.

No.1 Single player FPS games shall be judged purely by difficulty, for if thou hasn't defeated the heavily shield walking skittle bags, thou is a noob!
etc etc

(and incidently why would this devine law only apply to FPS, why not other single player genres like sports games, RTS, fighting games, RPGS etc?, its not life FPS games are by default more challenging any other genre)

I'd argue the reason Halo was a success on console from a multiplayer perspective at lans is because console players had few alturnatives in the FPS department at the time. People have stuck with the Halo brand since, because it set the standard for console shooters.

True I haven't played Halo on legendary difficulty until I started playing again. But you listed other games that I listed as good as banal (except Crysis which you did not play fair enough) but at the same time you admitted to only playing them on default difficulty! Bit of a contradiction!. Now can you say these games are banal when they could be so much more challenging (i.e better) on there hardest difficulty levels. No you found these games banal, fine I did not but I'm not going say your opinion is totally invalidated by playing them on the default difficulty (you know the difficulty that is designed with the majority of players in mind), because its does not fundemantly change the game.

How do you barge into a open online forum anyway. Did I need someone's persmission or did I need to get a number and wait in line? Least I didn't start off by implying that I don't normal post on online forums like these because eveyone bar me is too thick to have a valid opinion!

Nice sterotyping PC game reviewers as graphics whores and by extension the PC gaming community, (which come to think of it is a bad descritption as alot of them like myself enjoy console gaming as well). Judging from your previous posts you seem to have a bone about people preferring FPS PC gaming. Its clear that those people have no valid opinions and only play on PC's so they can brag and pretend their special and are among in elite few in the know. Those elitists need to be taken down a peg! One line in 1 review brands the lot of us! Yes PC gamers and people who review PC games need to spend thousands to expand there uncontrolably large master race ego's. Gameplay bah who needs that, I want to look at trees with HDR and 200x anti aliasing.

Every review for every game regardless of genre on every format will mention graphics at some stage in the review. Thats not to say some PC gamers aren't graphic whores. Its just they are by far in the minority.

The list of PC games that you classify as good is only 7 long. Thats your opinion which I'm can't say is invalid because its an OPINION something you seem to have a problem with other people having when they don't align with your own, so you make up with ulterior motives for them having them. My list of very good PC shooter would number in the 20's and if I was to add in games that I consider personally to be around the same as Halo it would be a list of 30.

Incidently consoles have been around since 1972. Not far off 4 decades, yet I can't think of near as many good console shooters as I can for the PC, what gives?

And I thought Valkryia Chorincles was a great game until the genuis that is Yathzee showed me how wrong I was!. God the menu's where so bad, worse than 500 excel spreedsheets. Worse still you had to unlock the hardest difficulty! No one could like this game now looking back!

Seriously probably the best game I have played on the PS3.

LoGiE

Right guys I think we've heard enough about Halo for one thread...
I've already asked people to relax once. No more inflammatory posts and no more Sniping please.

LoGiE :pac:

CiDeRmAn

Bugger!
People still banging on about Halo?
Deary deary me...

Just a couple of points

1- It's just a game
2- If people are going to argue and snipe at each other in full view of the public, why not do what most folk do and just call it marriage?
3- However great Halo is, there will be better games in the future, of that you can be sure, so don't get too attached.
4- However dreadful Halo is, there will be worse games in the future, of that you can be sure, so don't get too annoyed.
5- For gods sake think of the children.
6- It could be worse, we could be debating how pitiful Gunstar Heroes is!
7- See point no. 1, the most important point here I reckon.

And one last thing, if Halo really does suck, and my opinion on the matter is pretty well known, at least to me, then why did the media attached to every other games playing device, be it the PS2/PS3 or PC keep banging on about the next big FPS being a Halo-Killer, in doing so all they ever did was create an even bigger mystique about the game.
That and the much heralded conversions to the PC and, wasn't it the Mac, the original host platform, these all suppose the game is just as good as some would maintain.
Or that media hacks are as susceptible to hype as the good folk elsewhere.

That's the last I'll say on the matter.
Halo discussions are probably best kept for either the Games or Xbox forums, not the Retro forum, at least not for another 10 years anyway, by which time I'll be holidaying on Mars with my own flying car and a robot servant,
Which will be nice...

Retr0gamer

Ban Him!

Kinetic^

Rule No.1 of gaming........it's not just a game.

CiDeRmAn

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Rule No.1 of gaming........it's not just a game.

My wife has found a way to stop me gaming, just get me addicted to the latest tv show, was Fringe lately Lie To Me, get me to DL every ep and then watch them in succession, thereby voiding any late night gaming time there once was, hence the only console turned on was the PS3 where I watch video via a small server.
Arse!

She's the cleverest person I know, my wife.



And she HATES games, :eek::(:eek:

norrie rugger

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

6- It could be worse, we could be debating how pitiful Gunstar Heroes is!

You are insane and should be banned for your own help

Retr0gamer

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

And she HATES games, :eek::(:eek:

Dump her.

Or introduce her to Super Metroid.

norrie rugger

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Dump her.

Or introduce her to Super Metroid.

But then she will dump him, to free up time for Metroid

CiDeRmAn

Yeah, a game featuring a spacesuited woman, aliens and super duper weapons, I don't think you wuite understand, SHE HATES GAMES.
The last game she even tried was Flower on the PS3 and that took a herculean effort.
The disdain she shows towards gaming, the sheer disgust can be cut up and sold as insulation material it is that dense and substantial.
She has always found my hobby a total and complete waste of time and money.
She took a passing interest when the Wii arrived but that 5 minutes was all she had, then returned to papable distaste.
Honestly, if it wasn't for my 6 year old son that I am currently indoctrinating into gaming as religion, I think me and my gaming would be out on our ear!
She has in the past threatened to slag all my consoles in a heap in the garden with some petrol and a match.

One time, after a row, she hid the controllers of my machines, I had only 3 at the time, whilst she went out, leaving me bereft, a formidable lady indeed, hell hath no fury and all that!

So, on average in our house all the adult like games, given my love and her hate, added together and divided by two.
If only!