Empire magazine's "100 Greatest Games" list

Red Sleeping Beauty

http://www.empireonline.com/100greatestgames/

Sorry , I know, another "list" thread but just seeing if I can spark some debate here

There's a fair few "retro" games there. I was expecting the list to reflect film influences in games but it seems like it's your standard "most influential" games. I dunno, I'm not a hardcore gamer but reading here I think there's a lot of games that seem to not get a mention in tehse things

Goldeneye is no. 10, I couldn't help thinking about what someone said a few days ago about how it's so flawed today. Is it still "great" ?

Kinetic^

Some dodgy ones in there tbh. No Quake 3? No call of duty 2? Guitar Hero above Quake?

MrStuffins

I think it was me who said it had ages badly..........

BUT..... gameplay wise, still an incredible game. It just looks really bad compared to games nowadays

randomchild

LMAO at Warcraft at 3...

Retr0gamer

A list of infuriating badness on a level with the screwattack lists. It's basically written by someone that doesn't know what they are talking about drawing from the usual suspects, todays popular choices and a few badly choosen retro games.

There's plenty of dreadful games on there. Donkey Kong Country doesn't deserve to be on the list, FFVIII is a pretty poor JRPG, Black and White is just crap and if they did any researh they probably would have been disgusted with how Goldeneye plays nowadays. Looks wise it's a mess. Gameplay wise, a mess. Double Dragon but no streets of rage or capcom fighters?

They seemed to try and include popular franchises but picked totally the wrong games from them. Super Castlevania (IV) over symphony of the night and Dawn of Sorrow? Devil May Cry over the stunning DMC3? Super Contra over Contra Hard Corp? There's better Sonic games than the first. And the MGS series? Granted MGS is a classic but MGS2 is a bit of a mess and MGS4 is just a bad game no matter what the fanboys say. Forgetting by far the best game in the series MGS3?

FFVII at no. 2? Granted it's most peoples only foray into the genre and probably made a big impact but in the JRPG genre it's merely average. Certainly not the second best game ever and ahead of chrono trigger and black isles finest.

Where's Robotron? Why is Super Metroid so low yet GoW is so high? No Halo game deserves to be on the list let alone higher than System Shock 2 and Half-life.

There's only one thing worse than a list i don't agree with and thats a terrible list written by spoof artists. I'd expect nothing less from Empire though.

Command and Conquer better than Starcraft? **** off.

Atavan-Halen

TBH I dont look at greatest x lists. Why? Because usually the number 1 is not that great and I end up wasting money. The last top 100 games list I read was in Edge magazine, while it was an interesting read, I didnt go out and get the games on the list.

Number 1 was Ocarina of Time

A probable un-neccessary spoiler there, but I've always wanted to put one in a post :P

Kinetic^

At least OoT was a decent game and warrants being high up on any Top games list.

ShawnRaven

Looked at the top ten
Shook head
Walked off.

CiDeRmAn

Oh dear, what a load of tosh.
At least Edges top 100 had valid arguements for each and every entry.
Happily, I already own 80 odd of that top 100, and everyone should at least own their top ten.

10-Yoshi's Island
9-Halo 3
8-Super Mario Galaxy
7-Tetris
6-Super Mario World
5-Zelda: Link to the past
4-Resident Evil 4
3-Half Life 2
2-Super Mario 64
1-Zelda: Ocarina of Time

For me though the top two should be switched around, but that's just me.

Retr0gamer

Halo 3 though? It maybe a competent FPS but really there's no way you can say it's the best FPS ever. I can come up with a lot of games that did everything Halo 3 did except way better.

Kinetic^

No way should Halo 3 be there.

CiDeRmAn

Sorry you guys, but I play a lot of FPS and Halo 3 was remarkable, so many great moments, so many engagements with the enemy that ebbed and flowed across a battlefield, and then the battle with the Scarabs, where you really got to feel superhuman, fantastic.
And that's not even taking into account the multiplayer elements.
Overall an awesome package (Ohh err matron) and I think you can get it preowned for only 20 blips, so no excuses.

Just don't play it on anything less than Heroic or you're wasting your time, the strategies are totally different, it's a different game, In slept walked through Halo 2 on normal, so I knew not to make the same mistake again.

civis_liberalis

atavan-halen wrote: »

Number 1 was Ocarina of Time

A probable un-neccessary spoiler there, but I've always wanted to put one in a post :P

Me too

Retr0gamer

Maybe you think highly of it but was it really more remarkable than Half-life 1 and 2, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, the best of Call of Duty, Doom 2, Metroid Prime, Operation Flashpoint, etc.? It definitely isn't the best the best multiplayer game out there and Forge is a sorry shadow of a level editor. Fun game, yes. Deserving of being in a top 100. No. Deserving of being placed as one of the best 10 games ever. Definitely not.

(Was tempted to do a GH Edge joke but I'm getting bored listening to myself say it )

appleidog

1.Mario 64 Nothing comes close to this game!.
2.Ghoul's n ghosts - Saturn
3.Donkey kong: Jungle Beat- Gamecube
4.Bioshock - Xbox 360
5.Vib Ribbon - PS1
6.Sonic 1 Megadrive.
7.Super mario allstars + World (I know that is cheating) Super Nintendo
8.Kirby's Adventure Nes
9.Nights
10.Super Street fighter 2 Turbo.

CiDeRmAn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

(Was tempted to do a GH Edge joke but I'm getting bored listening to myself say it )

We're all glad to see the pills are working.

And as for Halo 3 being quite that good, well, yes it is.
Perhaps only time will tell.
The likes of Half Life, HL2, Deus Ex and Metroid Prime, well, I too reckon they are only trotting after Halo 3, but then you're into the whole thing of comparing liek with like.
Metroid Prime is not a first person shooter, neither is Deus Ex.
Half Life and Half Life 2 are a very different breed as well.

I have to say, at the risk of offending many, that there seem's to be a touch of inverse fanboyism going on, an ABU of the videogaming world, Anyone But Halo, ABH we'll call it.
Some folk are perfectly willing to overlook the flaws in their favourite game, to quote the prophet "Was tempted to do a GH Edge joke but I'm getting bored listening to myself say it", but when it comes to the Halo series the knives come out.
Hmm....

Or maybe I'm the fanboy :eek::eek:

NeoKubrick

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Some folk are perfectly willing to overlook the flaws in their favourite game, to quote the prophet "Was tempted to do a GH Edge joke but I'm getting bored listening to myself say it", but when it comes to the Halo series the knives come out.
Hmm....

Or maybe I'm the fanboy :eek::eek:

Very true, Ciderman. Though, I don't think Halo 3 is that good. I think Halo 1 and 2 are better. To name System Shock 2, Deus Ex, the best of Call of Duty, Doom 2, Operation Flashpoint better than Halo 1 and 2 is ridiculous.

Retr0gamer

Ridiculous? I don't know, I just think they are far superior games to Halo. For me Halo is just the equivalent of a dumb blockbuster compared to the artier offerings of Metroid Prime and System Shock 2 (not just in story but in game design and fulfilling ambition amongst other things) and not even the best dumb blockbuster.

As for Halo 1 and 2, Halo 1 told a better story than Halo 3 but wasn't as good a game and Halo 2 was a mess imo.

I just feel Halo is a ridiculously overrated series of games. I can understand people fawning over the original since it was something special for consoles but I have played so many much better games especially on the PC. They aren't bad they just aren't anything special.

On an unrelated note, I think I've found something to help bridge my Edge hatred:

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ps2/gradius5

One of the few publications not stupid enough to mark that game down for being 2D and too tough.

Atavan-Halen

appleidog wrote: »

2.Ghoul's n ghosts - Saturn

Whats the Saturn version like? I have Daimakaimura on MD, but haven't been able to play it yet due to random problems with both MD's. I must bring one of them out and give it a good clean inside.

BTW, what would be the best way to clean the MD up on the inside? I've heard compressed air, but I dont have any of that lying around, and I've heard the hoovering it can cause static. Any tips?

LoGiE

What the hell is Alone in the dark doing on there? Where is Fallout 1/2? and Monkey Island 2 was way better imo...

Red Sleeping Beauty

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Oh dear, what a load of tosh.
At least Edges top 100 had valid arguements for each and every entry.
Happily, I already own 80 odd of that top 100, and everyone should at least own their top ten.

10-Yoshi's Island
9-Halo 3
8-Super Mario Galaxy
7-Tetris
6-Super Mario World
5-Zelda: Link to the past
4-Resident Evil 4
3-Half Life 2
2-Super Mario 64
1-Zelda: Ocarina of Time

For me though the top two should be switched around, but that's just me.

Is it just a tosh list or do you own a lot of tosh games ? :P


What's the deal with these kinds of lists ? Is it just too hard to condense 20+ years of gaming into a hundred entries ? I think they tried for a list of influential/populist games. Lists of "greatest" games always split people, more so maybe than say a list of films (even people who are mad into the most "pure" indpendents will usually concede that Godfather deserves a serious mention.)

Is it fair to say that rarer games or games that wouldn't have sold that many copies usually don't make these kinda lists ? Like Tomba or something ? (that's about the only rare game I can think of)

Retr0gamer

A lot of rare games don't make the list because very few people have played them. Lists from a single expert are usually better I find even if a little bit of personal bias gets in the way or a group of experts that know their field extremely well otherwise populist titles that don't deserve to place can sneak in. You'll get games like FFVII placing high when much better games but rarer don't place at all like suikoden 2 and panzer dragoon saga.

I found IGN's one they did a few years ago to be very good. Stuff like Panzer Dragoon Saga even made it in a placed very highly.

I don't think there was a saturn version of Ghouls n'Ghosts except as a collection of capcom games. The megadrive version is amazingly accurate to the arcade game other than some reduced graphical quality. I trained on that before 1 crediting the arcade game.

NeoKubrick

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Hold on are you saying Halo 1+2 are better than the above games? As I said before on a thread defending the halo series they are amazing games but they are not better than Deus Ex or System shock, not even close. I wouldnt put any of the COD games in the above list though, pure 100% scripted tripe.

Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are great games, but a FPS game, first and foremost, is combat, and I don't know if you've played either game recently, but both games have simplistic combat which isn't getting better with age. Both games excelled in other areas, but not combat.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Ridiculous? I don't know, I just think they are far superior games to Halo. For me Halo is just the equivalent of a dumb blockbuster compared to the artier offerings of Metroid Prime and System Shock 2 (not just in story but in game design and fulfilling ambition amongst other things) and not even the best dumb blockbuster.

As for Halo 1 and 2, Halo 1 told a better story than Halo 3 but wasn't as good a game and Halo 2 was a mess imo.

I just feel Halo is a ridiculously overrated series of games. I can understand people fawning over the original since it was something special for consoles but I have played so many much better games especially on the PC. They aren't bad they just aren't anything special.

We already had this debate. If we're talking about combat, it would actually be the reverse: Halo would prove to be more the sophisticated and Metroid Prime and System Shock 2 the more simpler. But, again, this is futile to suggest to you, because you haven't finished either Halo 1 or 2 on Legendary. You're in no position to counter any claim relating to Halo 1 or 2, because most of the arguments for the games are based upon the Legendary campaign. Halo on Normal/Heroic and Halo on Legendary are two vastly different games.

Just because a game is popular doesn't make it a good or bad game.

Retr0gamer

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are great games, but a FPS game, first and foremost, is combat, and I don't know if you've played either game recently, but both games have simplistic combat which isn't getting better with age. Both games excelled in other areas, but not combat.

Well for me the combat in Halo is simplistic compared to most FPS games. you can go on about how the energy weapons beat shields but it's the only strategy to use at higher difficulty levels and they are boring weapons to use, I usually end up using the less effective weaposn because they feel better.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

We already had this debate. If we're talking about combat, it would actually be the reverse: Halo would prove to be more the sophisticated and Metroid Prime and System Shock 2 the more simpler. But, again, this is futile to suggest to you, because you haven't finished either Halo 1 or 2 on Legendary. You're in no position to counter any claim relating to Halo 1 or 2, because most of the arguments for the games are based upon the Legendary campaign. Halo on Normal/Heroic and Halo on Legendary are two vastly different games.

I already gave my reason why I didn't finish the games on legendary. I tried to play them but it just wasn't fun on legendary at all. I play games for enjoyment not to play through the same sections over and over and slog through a game I already played but far more frustrating for 30+ hours when I've a massive backlog of much better games to play. I also think FPS games should aspire to be more about than just combat and I think the two games you metion do just that unlike halo which is a dumb shooter and not the best one either. Give me Doom 2 over Halo any day for dumb shooter thrills. At least the toughest difficulty levels are fun. I also wouldn't call the combat in Metroid Prime simple, it excels in boss battles and the latter half of the games.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Just because a game is popular doesn't make it a good or bad game.

Just because a game is popular doesn't make it good.

NeoKubrick

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well for me the combat in Halo is simplistic compared to most FPS games. you can go on about how the energy weapons beat shields but it's the only strategy to use at higher difficulty levels and they are boring weapons to use, I usually end up using the less effective weaposn because they feel better.

I already gave my reason why I didn't finish the games on legendary. I tried to play them but it just wasn't fun on legendary at all. I play games for enjoyment not to play through the same sections over and over and slog through a game I already played but far more frustrating for 30+ hours when I've a massive backlog of much better games to play. I also think FPS games should aspire to be more about than just combat and I think the two games you metion do just that unlike halo which is a dumb shooter and not the best one either. Give me Doom 2 over Halo any day for dumb shooter thrills. At least the toughest difficulty levels are fun. I also wouldn't call the combat in Metroid Prime simple, it excels in boss battles and the latter half of the games.

Just because a game is popular doesn't make it good.

Again, you're holding the Halo series to an extremely high standard for your self-serving argument and holding your favoured games to lesser standards. If that's how you're going to analyze Halo 1 and 2, you may as well just state that Halo 1 and 2 is average without justifying it, because it's basically the same thing if you're not going to hold other games to the same stringent standard. If Halo 1 and 2 (on Legendary difficulty) are dumb, then every other FPS must be certified retards (Metroid Prime is one of my favourite games but, lock, dodge, fire isn't simple?).

Saying something is fun or something else isn't fun isn't really advancing this debate beyond personal taste.

FPS should aspire to be more than combat, but a FPS, by definition, will have to challenge the gamer the majority of the time with combat, and if the combat isn't interesting, then, the most important component of the game is not interesting. You can't put games with inferior combat above games with superior combat in the FPS genre; it just doesn't make sense.

Reganio 2

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Oh dear, what a load of tosh.
At least Edges top 100 had valid arguements for each and every entry.
Happily, I already own 80 odd of that top 100, and everyone should at least own their top ten.

10-Yoshi's Island
9-Halo 3
8-Super Mario Galaxy
7-Tetris
6-Super Mario World
5-Zelda: Link to the past
4-Resident Evil 4
3-Half Life 2
2-Super Mario 64
1-Zelda: Ocarina of Time

For me though the top two should be switched around, but that's just me.

I was looking at that and its crazy, I have always been a gamer but I don't have half of them
Never played Yoshi's Island.
Played Halo 3 but never liked it and never owned it.
Super Mario Galaxy I have never played.
Tetris of course I have owned at some point and it was good back then.
Super Mario World I never played
Zelda link to the past never played
Resident Evil 4, I don't think I owned but rented it or got a loan of it and it was sweet.
Half Life 2 never played
Super Mario 64 never played
Zelda Ocarnia of time was a class game

So that 3 of the 10 that I liked, thats pretty bad

appleidog

atavan-halen wrote: »

Whats the Saturn version like? I have Daimakaimura on MD, but haven't been able to play it yet due to random problems with both MD's. I must bring one of them out and give it a good clean inside.

BTW, what would be the best way to clean the MD up on the inside? I've heard compressed air, but I dont have any of that lying around, and I've heard the hoovering it can cause static. Any tips?

The Saturn version is Amazing to say the least, What is wrong with both the megadrives you have, it seems that everything 16bit with you goes wrong! 1st the Snes then the Megadrive.

Azza

I played Halo 1 on the PC having played FPS games for years and I still play them. I can't understand how popular the Halo games are. The kindest thing I could say about Halo 1 is that its average at best.

Firstly at the the time of the PC release, PC users the world over where having difficulty running the game but for some reason I had zero issues with it technically.

I remember playing through it and thinking this is okay. Can't remeber any of the weapns but I remember the gameplay was average at best, uninspired enemies who where totally unmenacing (the little enemy grunts looked comical) although the A.I was solid for the time, graphics and art direction where so so for the time as well, no sense or atmosphere from any of the gameplay enviorments. Can't recall a single bit of the soundtrack either. Did not find the game to hard or two easy. Story was bog standard SCI-FI stuff nothing special there either, totally lacked tension. Totally shallow and linear. But then all this backtracking BS really got to me, get to A from B, go back to A from B. If there is anything I dispise its backtracking in video games. Then came the section with the flood which was just terrible. Struggled with the urge to quit a while after they showed up. Eventually got almost to the very end when I lost my save games and was never arsed going back to it. Never played a Halo game since never will. From my understanding the sequels are more of the same.
Did not try mutiplayer which would probably been okay too but if I wanted a hardcore shooter online I would be playing UT or Quake.
As for the raved about Forge editor that came with the Halo games, PC gamers had tools like that for years.

Halo did nothing I had not seen before. Maybe it pushed the boat out for console shooters but its an also ran compared to most decent PC shooters, Microsoft just created such hype for it because they needed that exclusive killer app to push the orginal Xbox and people bought into it.

Playing the game on legendary mode would not have made this game any better. I love a challenge as much as the next and always play my game on the hardest available difficulty but just making the game more challenging would not have done anything for me. Besides if I want a challenge I'd go play Quake or UT online for some serious challenge.

Compared to so many other games its just so utterly average. None of the games I mention below are flawless but there combined strenghts more than make up for the flaws.

Take the Half Life games. They have more varied enemies, better shooting mechanics, some fun puzzles which give you a break from jus shooting everything (I agree combat is very important in FPS but there should be other stuff too) far more interesting setting and amotsphere. The game has excellent pacing. Even with so little plot revealed it has a miles better story. Its the high watermark of the linear first person shooter. The multiplayer mode with Half Life 2 was a bit lacking but the multiplayer mods it spawned where not.

Then you have Deus Ex. I can't belive you can compare the two and for a second think Halo is better. Deus Ex does not have the best shooting mechanics but its not terrible in that department either. You have viable other tactics like stealth, as well as RPG elements to turn you into a GOD practically. Of course its open ended unlike Halo has a cracking story that changed depending on your actions, the setting and atmosphere where superb. Brillaint soundtrack. Excellent dialouge even with some ropey voice acting in some area's. But the sheer freedom to create you own playstyle and be who you wanna be was amazing.

I could list out pro's and cons for all the game I mention below but I be here all day. Suffice to say give me any of these over Halo any day.
Aliens Vs Predator
ArmA series
Battlefield series
Call of Duty and its expansion United Offensive
Crysis and Crysis Warhead
Counter Strike
Day of Defeat
Far Cry
Fear
Hidden and Dangerous
Medal of Honor Allied Assault
Left 4 Dead
No One Lives Forever series
Operation Flashpoint and its expansions
Star Trek Elite Force
System Shock 2
Stalker series
Swat 3 or 4
Quake III/Live
Team Fortress 2
UT 99 or 2004
Rainbow 6 series (Pre Vegas)

To get back somewhere on topic. I don't think Empire are up to the task of creating such a list. Its pretty poor in opinion.

Retr0gamer

But the combat in Halo just isn't interesting either for me. It's the same enemies with very little variety in any encounter. Compared to Half-lifes varied encounters, Call of Duties excellent scripted and controlled set pieces, Operation Flashpoint and Alien vs. Predators tension built by how vunerable you are and No One Lives Forevers excellent setpieces and level design it really doesn't stack up. And thats really all it's got going for it.

The story is average but well told in Halo 1. It turns to utter garbages in Halo 2 and 3
A lot of levels in Halo 1 are costructed of repeating corridors that are exactly the same. I know the game was rushed but there's no excuse for the same flaw showing up in Halo 2 and giving us more boring levels. Mercifully gotten rid of in Halo 3 which is why for me it's the better game.
The library and the cheek of them to make us go through another library level in Halo 2.
Backtracking in Halo 1.
The flood appear and the game turns into a bad serious sam clone. They totally ruined Halo 2 since they appear after a great opening chapter and the game turns to arse. They don't appear as much in Halo 3 but there's a reason that the last level is considered one of the worst levels ever made and there's no way anyone can tell me it was fun to beat on legendary since it was a nightmare on heroic.

Every person that I know that is a mainly PC player can't understand the love for the game and I guess I just can't understand it either. With the amount of games I played there's no way I could let Halo into a top 100.

CiDeRmAn

Reganio 2 wrote: »

I was looking at that and its crazy, I have always been a gamer but I don't have half of them
Never played Yoshi's Island.
Played Halo 3 but never liked it and never owned it.
Super Mario Galaxy I have never played.
Tetris of course I have owned at some point and it was good back then.
Super Mario World I never played
Zelda link to the past never played
Resident Evil 4, I don't think I owned but rented it or got a loan of it and it was sweet.
Half Life 2 never played
Super Mario 64 never played
Zelda Ocarnia of time was a class game

So that 3 of the 10 that I liked, thats pretty bad

Erm,
Kinda daft to claim that you only liked 3 of the top ten when you have not played 6 of them, therefore of the 4 you have played, you liked 3 of them, so out of the top games ever made, by Edges estimation, you liked 75% of those you tried.
That's not bad going as lists go then!
Really,
If you are a gamer, and I don't like all this talk of "hardcore" or "casual" but if a gamer is what you claim to be, you really should make it your business to play Super Mario 64, Half Life 2, Super Mario World, Zelda Links to the Past and Yoshi's Story, in fact, jsut go by a Snes and buy the latter three titles, you can buy the Orange Box for peanuts and play Half Life 2 along with eps 1/2 and Portal, and sure Mario 64 is available on every Nintendo console on the market, in one form or another.

So you, or others, don't like Halo, fine, that's entirely up to you, I loved them, got great pleasure out of them, and found the conbat on Heroic to be as good if not better than any other FPS I have played to date.
But then, folk are free to disagree, happy days!

The point was also made that it is impossible to condense 20+ years of gaming into a top100, considering the different genres and the subjective nature of gaming as a whole.
This is an excellent point, and one made by, you guessed it, Edge in the past, where they took something like ten categories and, in no particular order in each, gave us the ten best games, along with some worthy contenders.
A great idea, a better vision of the best of gaming perhaps than a simplistic top 100, I guess the top 20 titles at the very least should be taken in any orde you wish, although few would argue that Zelda OoT isn't one of the most incredible gaming experiences available.

That said, I would, for me the greatest game of all time is Ico, I have never played anything so engrossing, atmospheric or beautiful, it made me care about a bunch of pixels on my screen and hearing the sound of her cry from 2 rooms away while I'm dongling from a chain in a vault underground, instills a panic I have not experiences since.
Pure Genius, and No. 1 in my book.

Atavan-Halen

appleidog wrote: »

The Saturn version is Amazing to say the least, What is wrong with both the megadrives you have, it seems that everything 16bit with you goes wrong! 1st the Snes then the Megadrive.

Ah I know, don't get me started! Well, the SNES I got free so it was bound to be doomed from the start. The MegaDrive 1 Just gives a white-ish picture on the screen when turned on, and AFAIK the MD 2 works but I'm missing the AV cables, which I've been meaning to pick up for ages.