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History degree?

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    #32
    Karlusss
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Karlusss


    Dionysus wrote: »
    In fairness, Trinners does itself no favours by allowing cricket, rugby and even American football to be played on its campus but no sign of a hurling or football pitch still.

    Pretty sure American football takes place in Santry.

    Possibly a side-point, but whatever.

    Regarding the three-subjects vs. two subjects thing: that's fine if that's what you want to do but it's not really an advantage or disadvantage either way. I knew the two I wanted in Trinity and I'm glad I got to do more of them in first year rather than something else I'd end up dropping. Other people want to stay broad, and that's fine too.


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    #33
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    american football takes place in ucd aswel.....


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    #34
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    claire h wrote: »
    Not necessarily. UCD first year courses are much more general than TCD's, and their history research methods style courses are much more 'bridging the gap between school and college' by dealing with Irish history topics. The first year courses at TCD are survey courses in medieval history and have nothing to do with giving a general overview of 'everything's that's happened in the world or Europe in the last two millennia'.

    I would guess that first year in most history departments include some module about 'how to do history', but that's not quite the same thing as a 'refresher course'.


    On another note... history department at TCD are, by Trinity terms, reasonably organised and efficient and easy to deal with.

    I didn't mean to suggest first year would include nothing new, in NUIM we did a history of globalisation module in second semester of first year that wsa great and very new. But most courses are going to assume a certain level of unknowledge and find a beginning point at some stage-maynooth had a big focus on Irish history, so both European and Irish history started in the 16th century and progressed throughout the degree from there. Each uni will have a different focus but do pretty much the same thing.


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    #35
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    You do the 'doing history' course for the MA in UCD, and they are easily the most boring courses you could do - actually, research methods in 2nd Year Politics is up there with it. They are just trying to intellectualise things and keep themselves in work. It really is the stuff you do not need to be taught; if you have any sort of learner autonomy you'll read up on it yourself. If you still want to be spoonfed as you were in secondary school I suppose it would be nice if they give you a course in first year.

    You get a much more cogent view of 'doing history' by reading Anthony Grafton's The Footnote: A curious history (Harvard, 1997). The only satisfying thing about the 'doing history' stuff is that you can read rightwing lunatics like Geoffrey Elton going apoplectic when "dangerous" historians suggested that studying social history could be a valuable thing for historians to do back in the 1960s. Nothing, absolutely nothing, could possibly be as important as constitutional history, real history, he raged. Social history was confusing things; never mind the peasants, old bean! No wonder his nephew ended up as a (quite good) comedian.


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    #36
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Justind wrote: »
    Where on campus would a hurling or football pitch go? There's no room.

    They could easily rotate sports, with rugby and cricket players making the long trek out to Santry for ten-year periods or so, and vice versa.

    Karlusss wrote: »
    Pretty sure American football takes place in Santry.

    Not sure, but it was being played on the rugger pitch last time I was on the main campus.


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    #37
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    As for the three versus two subjects, I found three much better. Still, I couldn't decide so I did four subjects. Yes, some of us are terribly indecisive ;). The really brilliant thing about UCD is you can choose from something like 32 courses in first year when you choose Arts on your CAO form. You can make that choice over a month or even longer while attending the courses. That makes sense. In Trinners, in contrast, you have to decide your two subjects in January, before you have even done your mock Leaving, never mind set foot in university. Where is the sense in that?

    On the other hand, I found 2nd year much better than first as you had weeded out the subjects or sub-subjects you didn't like and had much more choice. Third year was better for the same reasons. But I'd much rather have the broad choice in 1st year than specialise in 1st year in something I may not like. That's an awful burden on a 17-year-old. Specialisation without happiness isn't worth much in my view.


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    #38
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    The one thing none of you have mentioned is this: there is no internet access in Trinners for students from other third level colleges who visit it. This makes TCD on a par with the National Library of Ireland as some relic of the 19th century. It is entirely unacceptable in 2009 that both places refuse to give free internet access to students/researchers who visit.

    In UCD, in sharp contrast, any visiting student/researcher walks into the library or archives with his/her laptop, automatically picks up the signal and clicks connect. That's it. No nonsense, consumer-friendly and embracing modern technology.

    The lack of internet access in TCD and the NLI ranges from simple things like not being able to find out the precise name/details of a journal or book (the details of which are definitely online) to not being able to gain access to online dictionaries/thesauri (infinitely more efficient than thrawling around the library for physical dictionaries etc) to finding online biographies about the person you are reading at that moment to getting aids in order to decipher manuscripts in a range of languages. For example, if you are reading a manuscript in latin you can put part of it into any of the well established academic online translation tools which will assist you in deciphering the rest of it, particularly if it is a common phrase. Clearly, more advanced libraries have embraced technology.

    It is as if these two institutions are trying to stop the tide by engaging in this luddite-style obscurantism. It is a recipe for inefficiency. There are absolutely no excuses for this, especially from education institutions. The Department of Education should have stipulated to these two institutions years ago that public funding was contingent on allowing internet access to all members of the public who visit.


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    #39
    Babbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Babbit


    The lack of internet access in TCD and the NLI ranges from simple things like not being able to find out the precise name/details of a journal or book (the details of which are definitely online) to not being able to gain access to online dictionaries/thesauri (infinitely more efficient than thrawling around the library for physical dictionaries etc) to finding online biographies about the person you are reading at that moment to getting aids in order to decipher manuscripts in a range of languages. For example, if you are reading a manuscript in latin you can put part of it into any of the well established academic online translation tools which will assist you in deciphering the rest of it, particularly if it is a common phrase. Clearly, more advanced libraries have embraced technology.

    What utter nonsense. There are visitor PCs and we have access to most internet databases of note (Oxford DNB etc.) I'll agree getting access to the internet in Trinity is difficult, but it is only a matter of a five minute trip to Internet services. Your making a mountain out of a molehill.


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    #40
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    ah i would love having to trek with a large book, or books to the pcs

    that would be so handy - no wait i could do this is ucd too aswel as having wireless.......


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    #41
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Babbit wrote: »
    What utter nonsense. There are visitor PCs and we have access to most internet databases of note (Oxford DNB etc.) I'll agree getting access to the internet in Trinity is difficult, but it is only a matter of a five minute trip to Internet services. Your making a mountain out of a molehill.

    If anybody is speaking nonsense here it is you. Unlike you, I have spent very many months in TCD as a researcher from outside the university. The staff are among the best and most helpful in the world - no problems there - but restricting internet access is patronising in the extreme when other Irish universities can offer this respect to visiting students from TCD.

    And spare us the "access to most internet databases of note" as if we are children who cannot choose our own databases "of note" - who is anybody else to decide what is "of note" for me? The databases I need are nowhere to be seen in TCD's little choice because the mere librarians who decide what I can look at are nothing near experts in this area, or indeed any other area from what I can see. They are, therefore, in no position to act as censors of what people should, and should not, be allowed to view.

    UCD, in contrast, has no such limitations on our access and insults upon our intelligence. I end up writing a list of things I have to research online every evening when I get home simply because TCD refuses to make this small change that could make research significantly more efficient. The management of the place has, quite patently, little but fear of new technology.


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    #42
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    Dionysus wrote: »
    They could easily rotate sports, with rugby and cricket players making the long trek out to Santry for ten-year periods or so, and vice versa

    What a stupid suggestion. Two of the oldest cricket and rugby clubs in the world move to Santry for what...ten year stints? :rolleyes:


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    #43
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Justind wrote: »
    What a stupid suggestion. Two of the oldest cricket and rugby clubs in the world move to Santry for what...ten year stints? :rolleyes:

    So, because they are "two of the oldest cricket and rugby clubs in the world" (can we have precise dates, just for a bit or historical perspective?) they should be immune to recent developments like Irish people, especially of the Catholic type, being allowed into the University of Dublin? Despite the vast majority of people in Trinity now being from the Irish tradition rather than the English colonial tradition upon which the university was founded, Trinners should simply ignore this modern reality and press on with the aims of its 1592 charter, namely to promote English culture against the barbarous natives and their culture?

    But, of course, Trinity College Dublin will readily demand money from the Irish taxpayer while refusing to give equal treatment to Irish sports on its Irish-funded university campus. It's 2009, not 1609. Get real. And you are lecturing others on stupidity (or perhaps it's just a subconscious bigotry?)

    PS: And of course those cricket and rugby clubs would die if their members had to trundle out to Santry, well beyond the walls of Dublin, every ten years or so. No other clubs on earth change their pitches and "survive", right? Talk about a lame excuse for refusing to share sports pitches with "the natives". Bad form.


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    #44
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    claire h wrote: »
    Just because the evidence is skimpier for 'the ordinary people', especially the further back into the past you go, doesn't mean that it's impossible to work with or that it's entirely conjecture. It just means you need to be careful with the source material - but that's the case with everything, regardless of how official and unambiguous it seems.

    On someone's earlier posts re: TCD access to various databases - 'censorship' seems an inappropriate way of framing it. Trinity's priority is obviously going to be ensuring that there's access to databases which its students and staff will be using - suggesting that visiting researchers don't have access to certain databases because they've been deemed in some way not 'allowed' is nonsense.

    You're missing the point: if UCD can allow any visitor a right to access the internet and all journals UCD subscribes to, there is no reason why TCD cannot do precisely the same. There is no justification for this pettiness given that TCD students are not treated this way in UCD.

    Other than that, you made a good defence of social history. Fair play.


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    #45
    claire h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭claire h


    Dionysus wrote: »
    You're missing the point: if UCD can allow any visitor a right to access the internet and all journals UCD subscribes to, there is no reason why TCD cannot do precisely the same. There is no justification for this pettiness given that TCD students are not treated this way in UCD.

    Leaving internet access aside, your point on TCD seemed to be the small amount of choice one had when looking at journals, rather than there being a difference between what researchers can access and what TCD students/staff can access. If your gripe is the latter issue, then that wasn't made clear, and I maintain that labelling it as 'censorship' is inappropriate.

    Is there any official policy stating that UCD and TCD libraries must treat students of the other institution exactly the same way, or is this just something you feel should be the case? I completely appreciate that you might feel like it's a pain or inconvenient or outmoded that Trinity don't do what UCD do, but surely it's up to them to decide what their policy will be?
    Babbit wrote:
    Constitutional history has an abundant supply of source material - hence it is why it should be the primary focus of the historian. ...I am not opposed to social history - I'm just saying that social history is effectively impossible. Intelligent and reasoned speculation? yes. Definitive history? No.

    You believe constitutional history can provide a 'definitive history' or anything like it? Are you kidding me?


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    #46
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    claire h wrote: »
    Leaving internet access aside, your point on TCD seemed to be the small amount of choice one had when looking at journals, rather than there being a difference between what researchers can access and what TCD students/staff can access. If your gripe is the latter issue, then that wasn't made clear, and I maintain that labelling it as 'censorship' is inappropriate. Is there any official policy stating that UCD and TCD libraries must treat students of the other institution exactly the same way, or is this just something you feel should be the case? I completely appreciate that you might feel like it's a pain or inconvenient or outmoded that Trinity don't do what UCD do, but surely it's up to them to decide what their policy will be?

    My entire problem with TCD is precisely the same as it is with the National Library of Ireland: I cannot get unlimited free internet access in either place, whereas people can come from both of those places to UCD and get unlimited free internet access in UCD.
    I haven't a clue about the agreements between UCD and TCD but there is no defence for TCD not allowing everybody who is given access to their libraries to have full use of the internet. That way, I can access all the journals in either TCD or UCD depositories, all the dictionaries, Google Books, archive.org and, well, countless other resources that make researching efficient and help in reading manuscripts at the same time.


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    #47
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    whoops - new thread

    in this day and age - trinity could easily provide open internet access to all


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    #48
    Babbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Babbit


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    whoops - new thread

    in this day and age - trinity could easily provide open internet access to all

    It does. There are visitor computers.

    I have been a visiting student to both UCD archives and the library (One one occasion) and I found their internet services no different than our own. I know UCD and NUI Galway students who came to Trinity and they had no complaints with the computers. The lady doth protest too much.


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    #49
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    Dionysus wrote: »
    So, because they are "two of the oldest cricket and rugby clubs in the world" (can we have precise dates, just for a bit or historical perspective?) they should be immune to recent developments like Irish people, especially of the Catholic type, being allowed into the University of Dublin? Despite the vast majority of people in Trinity now being from the Irish tradition rather than the English colonial tradition upon which the university was founded, Trinners should simply ignore this modern reality and press on with the aims of its 1592 charter, namely to promote English culture against the barbarous natives and their culture?

    But, of course, Trinity College Dublin will readily demand money from the Irish taxpayer while refusing to give equal treatment to Irish sports on its Irish-funded university campus. It's 2009, not 1609. Get real. And you are lecturing others on stupidity (or perhaps it's just a subconscious bigotry?)

    PS: And of course those cricket and rugby clubs would die if their members had to trundle out to Santry, well beyond the walls of Dublin, every ten years or so. No other clubs on earth change their pitches and "survive", right? Talk about a lame excuse for refusing to share sports pitches with "the natives". Bad form.
    Its not a "lame excuse" at all and you can pull your head in with the bigotry rant too, by the way.
    What other clubs change their playing club grounds like you suggest Trinity should? In case you didn't realise, DUCC is an IRISH cricket club and DURFC is an IRISH rugby union club. The "Natives" play and run both sports there :rolleyes:


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    #50
    Babbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Babbit


    Justind wrote: »
    Its not a "lame excuse" at all and you can pull your head in with the bigotry rant too, by the way.
    What other clubs change their playing club grounds like you suggest Trinity should? In case you didn't realise, DUCC is an IRISH cricket club and DURFC is an IRISH rugby union club. The "Natives" play and run both sports there :rolleyes:

    Don't rise to him mate. He's the sort of UCD shinner I was talking about. For the likes of him, being Irish means beating ones chest, drinking pints of Stout and liking GAA.


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    #51
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Babbit wrote: »
    Don't rise to him mate. He's the sort of UCD shinner I was talking about. For the likes of him, being Irish means beating ones chest, drinking pints of Stout and liking GAA.

    Get a grip, as a UCD student I know that the amount of Shinners is extremely low. Most of the students in UCD are far right Fianna Failers or Fine Gaelers. Next years SU in UCD is 3 FF and 2 FG.


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    #52
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Ugh, should've said it earlier, but in case there's any confusion; Babbit banned for seven days for that last comment. Everyone else keep on topic or not at all. In cause you need reminding the topic is about history degrees, not the respective universities. If you need to compare that stuff take it somewhere else. mod.


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    #53
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    wireless internet

    2009!

    the lady doth use qoutes to escape the point.


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    #54
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    wireless internet

    2009!

    the lady doth use qoutes to escape the point.

    For future reference if someone has been banned its not a good idea to continue the conversation with them. Now like I said, please remain on topic.


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    #55
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well i made that post 2 mins after yours ans didnt see that user was banned

    and it was on topic to something that was said in a post


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    #56
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Ok it was made soon after my post, fair enough, but its not on topic-being on topic means it relates to the Op in some manner, not a post that came on page three/four of the thread about something else completely different. That's why I've had to split posts from threads that no longer relate in any way to the topic in hand.


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    #57
    convert
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭convert


    Babbit wrote: »
    Of course I had a bias against UCD. I can compare 1st year UCD and 1st year Trinity and the difference in startling. In one of the colleges the emphasis is on rambling off internet notes, in the other emphasis is on understanding concepts. The difference is between leaving cert. standard and university standard. I don't need to provide any backup - I don't particularly care if you disagree.

    Don't forget, TCD has a 4 year degree while that in UCD is a 3 year degree.

    Re. internet notes: I know for definite that students in both UCD and TCD run to the internet -and especially wikipedia - as a research tool for essays, etc. And this is despite tutors and lecturers emphasising the importance of using proper sources, such as books, articles, etc. over internet sources. However, jstor is a fantastic tool for sourcing articles, especially if copies of the relevant journal have been taken and hidden by other students!
    Babbit wrote: »
    What utter nonsense. There are visitor PCs and we have access to most internet databases of note (Oxford DNB etc.) I'll agree getting access to the internet in Trinity is difficult, but it is only a matter of a five minute trip to Internet services. Your making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Are these the visitor PCs in the library which are constantly being hogged by TCD students?!
    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Get a grip, as a UCD student I know that the amount of Shinners is extremely low. Most of the students in UCD are far right Fianna Failers or Fine Gaelers. Next years SU in UCD is 3 FF and 2 FG.

    I've met far more shinners in TCD than I ever met during my time in UCD.

    Right: now back on topic: Advice on your history degree

    - What type of history you want to study.
    - Take a look at the websites of the different colleges as the courses should now be up online and you'll get a sense of what's on offer and how many and what courses are options/obligatory.
    - Do you want a 3 or 4 year degree?
    - In UCD, 2nd and 3rd years count for 50/50; in TCD it's 3rd and 4th year which count. That means you have a year more in TCD to get to grips with studying history before you enter part 1 of your final year.
    - Which is an easier location for you to access?
    - What are the differences between mature student access for UCD and TCD?
    - What support systems are in place for mature students?

    Despite what may be argued above, both UCD and TCD are good institutions from which you will obtain a good degree. Other colleges such as Maynooth, St Patrick's Drumcondra, etc. also offer well-respected degrees.

    I'd strongly recommend that you take your time and take all factors - both personal and educational - into consideration before making your decision. It's your degree and, at the end of the day, it's your decision. Don't rush it as you don't want to end up regretting your decision.


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    #58
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    ah jstor! so so handy


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    #59
    Aedh Baclamh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 864 ✭✭✭Aedh Baclamh


    So what job prospects would one be looking at on completing this degree? I've always had an interest in studying history in college but opted for business instead :(


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    #60
    TedB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 166 ✭✭TedB


    St Patrick's Drumcondra, etc.

    :rolleyes:


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    #61
    claire h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭claire h


    Aedh Baclamh wrote: »
    So what job prospects would one be looking at on completing this degree?

    Hahahahaha, you crack me up.


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