tail docking

fatmammycat

justhedog wrote: »

We as a modern generation seemed to be obsest with downing what the older generations have been doing for hundreds of years. Who is to say they are wrong or right, They have been around for a lot longer than some of the people on this board.

Oh my god, yeah yeah, hacking the tails off defenceless animals to make them look a certain way is aok becasue it was 'done' in times past. I'm going to go order up some slaves for the house now, I mean that should be aok too. After all, who is to say what's right or wrong, right?
Kildara, want to over to mine for a spot of badger baiting? Afterwards we can drown a witch, drink some mead and party on down safe in the knowledge we're right to do so cause it's been done in the olden days of yore.
Listen here Justthedog, dogs are living sentient creatures that feel pain and fear and injury- and yes even as puppies. Anyone with an OUNCE of savvy could figure butchering them in the name of aesthetics hardly comes under the mantel of animal welfare. Some practices should be stamped out and stamped out hard and it should be done so without someone playing the 'oh but through ignorance we've always done it this way' card.

fatmammycat

Rachel 999 wrote: »

Having worked sucessfully with over 5 herding breeds, dogs that herd work out around the animals away from the handler,whilst droving breeds stay with the handler and prefer to be behind the stock.

I grew up with collies and labs, all working dogs. The labradors had tails like bloody clubs and constantly hit things with them, including delicate shins. Collies worked as both herd and drove animals and- guess what- had tails which did not impact their work one way or the other. The reality is it's not a balance issue at all. Dogs are docked these days because people like the look of a certain dog. That certain people want to over look slicing an animal's tail off as a cruelty won't alter the fact that is is cruel and utterly barbaric in this day and age. 'we've always done it' is no excuse.

iguana

fatmammycat wrote: »

I grew up with collies and labs, all working dogs.

It's not the fact that they are working dogs, it's the type of work that they do that is the issue. Just as it's unlikely that a call centre worker will probably not die in a mine shaft collapse, a dog herding sheep is unlikely to rip it's tail on brambles that pheasants nest in.

fatmammycat

iguana wrote: »

It's not the fact that they are working dogs, it's the type of work that they do that is the issue. Just as it's unlikely that a call centre worker will probably not die in a mine shaft collapse, a dog herding sheep is unlikely to rip it's tail on brambles that pheasants nest in.

Not all hunting dogs are docked either, setters are not docked, retrivers and labs are not docked, fox hounds -who willingly go through the thickest of brambles are not docked, nor beagles. I will absolutely accept that certain springers when used as flushing dogs may be prone to hurting their tail now and then, but so what? If you have a dog used primarily for flushing and you feel through repeat injury it needs its tail removed then so be it. But again I'd argue against it. Springers cut their ears and chests going through thick bramble. Labs used for duck hunting often cut their chests while swimming through surface ice. Fox hounds come back in various states after a long hunt. Our collies often got a right bloody kick from the odd cow for nipping too close. Working animals run the risk of injury all the time, but we don't slice and dice at a whim.
Either way full time hunting and flushing dogs are not the main bone of contention with me. My argument is about wide scale docking on pets and animal that wouldn't know a bramble from an oak tree. There is no need for it and it needs to be iradicated.

iguana

fatmammycat wrote: »

I will absolutely accept that certain springers when used as flushing dogs may be prone to hurting their tail now and then, but so what? If you have a dog used primarily for flushing and you feel through repeat injury it needs its tail removed then so be it. But again I'd argue against it.

When a springer damages it's tail it can be fatal, but nevermind, you'd recommend against it. How about you accept that things are rarely black and white. Imo, docking for aesthetics is disgusting, but if it is to prevent a worse situation that there is a high possibility of happening it is advisable.

fatmammycat

I would be VERY surprised to hear of a fatality amongst working springers due to a tail injury. Do you have anything to back that?
And are you chosing to ignore me when I say quite clearly that working springers/flushing dogs are NOT the main bone of contention i have with tail docking?

fatmammycat

Also there in an excellent downloadable PDF available from Dogtrainingireland.ie that goes into considerable detail as to why docking should be prohibited and this is one piece that might interest you.

99
4.2 ‘Working dog’ breeds and lifestyle
A common argument of the proponents of tail-docking is that the lifestyle of dogs of ‘working breeds’ puts them
at increased danger of tail injury. This is unconvincing for a number of reasons. Firstly, the vast majority of dogs
of traditionally working breeds are now kept as companion animals or for showing, rather than for work.
According to Defra’s review of the issue, ‘true working animals constitute only a very small portion of dogs
within the UK... It is also both improper and unsubstantiated to suggest that all puppies in any litter, working
or non-working, will suffer tail injury in later life and thus should all be docked soon after birth as a
precautionary measure’.8
There is considerable inconsistency in the arguments put forward for docking certain breeds and not others.
These relate both to the claim of increased risk of tail injury and to the claim that long-haired breeds become
soiled with faeces around the tail area. According to a 2003 review of the issue in the Australian Veterinary
Journal, for almost all breeds that are docked, there is a corresponding breed that traditionally engages in the
same kind of activities but is not docked, which ‘calls into question the veracity of the argument’.4

The review of tail-docking by Defra’s Animal Welfare Veterinary Team in 2002 pointed out a number of
inconsistencies that strongly suggest that the motivation for docking is cosmetic, more one of breed standards
and tradition than of preventing injury or fouling of the dog:8
• Foxhounds and sheepdogs are the most common working dogs that are undocked, yet have an
extremely active life involving moving in woodland and scrub. The Defra review states that
there appears to be no evidence that they suffer damaged tails.
• A number of breeds of spaniels (Cocker, Springer, etc.) and terriers (Jack Russell, Airedale,
West Highland, etc.) and Old English sheepdogs are still docked, but there are anomalies within
each variety. Thus some spaniels -Cavalier King Charles, Irish Water and others - are undocked.
Although many terriers are docked, others - such as Bedlington, Bull, Skye - are not docked.
Many large breeds, similar to the Old English, that were formerly used as guard dogs for sheep
flocks, such as German Shepherd, Pyrenean, and others, are undocked.
• Border terriers, trained to kill foxes and move underground, may be docked or undocked.
• The fox itself is a canine that has no trouble moving above or underground with a full tail. The
Defra review points out that there is no evidence that foxes suffer tail injuries related to their
physical form or behaviour.


You should- if you have time- have a read of the whole PDF, if the majority of vets are against the proceedure, surely it becomes an animal welfare issue when people still carry it out?

ADAlliance

It has been mentioned that Old English Sheepdogs are docked but it should be noted that they should not have been since April 2007 in England, Wales and Scotland. Border Terriers and West Highland Terriers are not commonly docked breeds but may be being docked illegally. WHWTs and BTs have for some peculiar reason been included in the Animal Welfare Act truly working dog exemption list in Wales and England. However neither breed has been included in the docked breed lists in the past ?20 years.
Docking in itself is inflicting an injury thus causing 100% injury in all the dogs docked in the docked breeds. Most of these dogs if left undocked would not have a tail injury in their life (if in responsible ownership)and any that do are unlikely to have any higher percentage of tail injury than a non-docked breed. Most injuries to dogs are to cruciate ligaments, ears, teeth and other body parts. Dogs kept in confined spaces are more prone to injury. Breeders should have started taking into account the tail length and carriage of their chosen breeding stock when breeding (as they have been doing for the colour, coat, head, mouth, etc. over the past century)
see http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_14.htm

carmelod

dogs use their tails to communicate with each other to remove them hinders this. also research has shown that the risk of a dog injuring its tail are very small not enough for it to be used as an excuse to dock it for example in Australia an animal emergency unit surveyed 2000 dog injuries only 3 were tail injuries and all were result of tail docking.
i understand we are used to seeing some breeds with docked tails but the injuries that come from this are horrific in a lot of cases.

westwicklow

I maybe way off topic but what's the thinking on farmers clipping and cutting away cow's tails so they have no defence against the attack of biting flies/insects/ticks etc?

Pye

LovelyTom wrote: »

In my opinion dogs are naturally made to hunt so why would nature dictate that they have tails if they're a hindrence?

The answer to that is that nature didn't create dogs as they are today. Wolves are quite a different beast all together in nature and habit compared to today's working dogs.

However, I don't see aesthetics as a valid reason to trim an animals tail where as I can accept that in certain working breeds it could save a lot of discomfort during the animals working life.

My opinion on farmers docking cattle tails is that it is totally unnecessary and could give rise to other problems as westwicklow pointed out. I'd like to know why this is done although I've not often seen it myself being close to a lot of cattle farms.

westwicklow

Pye wrote: »

My opinion on farmers docking cattle tails is that it is totally unnecessary and could give rise to other problems as westwicklow pointed out. I'd like to know why this is done although I've not often seen it myself being close to a lot of cattle farms.

Some farmers claim it's cleaner for milking cows to crop cow tails and to crip any remaining hair from what's left of the the remaining tail.

Drakmord

Most Cocker Spaniels have their tails docked.
I think it's because their tails (and the rest of their body) are very curly and easily become matted.
It doesn't hurt them too much, it's just a little rubber ring around their tail when they are a few days old. All the breeding books seem to encourage it!

LisaO

Most Cocker Spaniels have their tails docked.
I think it's because their tails (and the rest of their body) are very curly and easily become matted.

Something that regular grooming should deal with more than adequately.

It doesn't hurt them too much, it's just a little rubber ring around their tail when they are a few days old.

Maybe you could try a small rubber ring around some part of your anatomy & let us know if it hurts or not!

All the breeding books seem to encourage it!

And therein lies the problem. On what grounds do the the breeding books advocate docking for cocker spaniels (of which breed I would imagine there is only a meagre handful of true working dogs in the country)?

fatmammycat

Drakmord wrote: »

Most Cocker Spaniels have their tails docked.
I think it's because their tails (and the rest of their body) are very curly and easily become matted.
It doesn't hurt them too much, it's just a little rubber ring around their tail when they are a few days old. All the breeding books seem to encourage it!

Oh my God, are you for real? Putting a band on a defenceless animal's tail and cutting off the blood circulation until that piece of their body rots and drops off- you don't see the cruelty in that?? Because it might at some point get matted? What? Brushing the dog is impossible? Trimming the hair too tricky to work out?
Seriously, that is right up there with the stupidest thing I've ever read on Boards. Drakmord go stick a band on your little toe and leave it on until it falls off and then come back to me, hey, I know it sounds crazy but you never know, it might prevent it from ever getting stubbed. And clearly doing something painful is the best way to prevent pain...oh no, wait, it isn't.

Drakmord

LisaO wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. On what grounds do the the breeding books advocate docking for cocker spaniels (of which breed I would imagine there is only a meagre handful of true working dogs in the country)?

There's a whole 3 pages dedicated to it in the breeding book we have.
Anyway there is no point arguing with a bunch of townies.
So /thread for me.

Liamario

What I find particularly funny about this thread was that the OP ran scared after their first post

LisaO

There's a whole 3 pages dedicated to it in the breeding book we have.
Anyway there is no point arguing with a bunch of townies.

I'm sure your "breeding book" devotes plenty of text to the promotion of tail docking but I would still be interested to hear the authors reasons why it is a positive for the breed. And how old would that book be?

I would imagine "bunch of townies" to be a sweeping assumption. I'm sure many of the posters on this thread are as "country" as you or I.

fatmammycat

'Bunch of townies' * guffaws* I grew up on a farm. And this farmer's daughter doesn't need to read three whole pages in a 'breeding book' to know amputating the tails off pups for no good reason is stupid and cruel.

carmelod

im no townie lol!!
tail docking in any animal is very painful research has shown. also dogs that have gone through this process are very likely to experience pain at some other stage in their lives.Its cutting through soft tissue, bone and cartilage....
anyone see Jamie Oliver's doc on pig farming in UK where piglets are docked and desexed at 4 days old without any pain relief...they screamed and screamed. i have seen lambs getting this done with my own eyes too and its unforgettable. If you get one thing from this believe me to see it you know its painful by the reaction of the animal

elius

carmelod wrote: »

im no townie lol!!
tail docking in any animal is very painful research has shown. also dogs that have gone through this process are very likely to experience pain at some other stage in their lives.Its cutting through soft tissue, bone and cartilage....
anyone see Jamie Oliver's doc on pig farming in UK where piglets are docked and desexed at 4 days old without any pain relief...they screamed and screamed. i have seen lambs getting this done with my own eyes too and its unforgettable. If you get one thing from this believe me to see it you know its painful by the reaction of the animal

9 times out of 10 sheep are ringed at a very young age. The tail just falls off.. I no its sore for a while. But its alot better than having magots ticks and other bugs and insects living on there rear end...Its not done for no reason....

carmelod

I get what you are saying and wouldn't know enough to say which is less painful, the tail docking or the effects of not having it done. anyway my point is that why is it so that so many dogs have it done? I met a lady in the local park the other day and she had g pointer with full tail. she said she knew why people had them docked as she had been to the vet 2 times with her dog with injured tail. i asked how old the dog was and she told me he was 12!

tracey3

cloudy day wrote: »

It's not illegal in Ireland. Most vets won't do it on grounds of morality, "mutilation for aesthetic reasons" is what they call it.

it is illegal in ireland i work in a vets

andreac

tracey3 wrote: »

it is illegal in ireland i work in a vets

It hasnt been made illegal yet, the vets have been instructed not to do it, but by law its not illegal yet.

Satyr_The_Great

My springer doesnt have his tail docked and he is doing great and he is from a strong working background. He is hunting, in and out of bushes, playing in the garden and what not, not a bother on him.
Do i agree with tail docking? no i dont but if you are then its your choice. Me, i rather see a dog as i think they are supposed to be.

cucoigcrice

Tail docking is not illegal in south of ireland yet- although it is in enland and northern ireland. Working dogs can however have there tails docked only until 3 days old. in fairness i have seen pups that have had elastic bands tied arounf there tails and they get completly infected etc etc which would be very painfull. if people want tails docked i feel they should go to a qualified person a vet- however i feel all dogs should be left with a tail, that is the way they are born so does that not say something