tail docking

fatmammycat

Again CD you're trying to move the goal posts. Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Do you have a solid reason as to why a rotty or a doberman should have their tail docked other than to achieve a certain look? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm genuinely curious.

cloudy day

Not moving the goal posts at all. It your debate is based on welfare grounds then all animals are equal and there should not be double standards with the vets.

fatmammycat

My debate wasn't on welfare grounds, it was on grounds of cruelty. So do you have an answer or not?

cloudy day

superfear wrote: »

I have been in touch with my vet to book an appointment to dock my pups. he has told me that this for him to do is illegal and a very sore subject at the mo. What do i do?

Try posting in shooting forum. the guys there may be able to best advise you.

cloudy day

fatmammycat wrote: »

Again CD you're trying to move the goal posts. Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Do you have a solid reason as to why a rotty or a doberman should have their tail docked other than to achieve a certain look? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm genuinely curious.

I didn't mention rotties or dobes. I don't have a problem with docking, you do. So take your argument elsewhere as this has thoroughly been debated before and I'm not going into it all over again.

Superfear posted looking for assistance.

if you take up the cross of not docking pups on the ground of cruelty, which I believe comes under welfare then in my opinion the vets should not take the moral high ground and have different standards. that is my bone of contention, with vets.

I like certain breeds docked. It's not illegal so why don't you leave the guy alone.

End of my conversation with you on said subject.

fatmammycat

My initial reply was to East Tyrone not to the OP and my personal views on docking I can pretty much back up with examples and common sense. That you 'like' certain breeds docked has no bearing on the debate at all. You couldn't answer my question as I suspected you couldn't because you appear to be afraid to relinquish outdated and frankly ridiculous practices performed by many misguided people, the chopping of pieces from perfectly healthy dogs for spurious reasons- and banned in increasing numbers of countries with more foreward thinking with regard to dog welfare.
You've said your piece, I've said mine, never the twain shall meet.

*Lees*

cloudy day wrote: »

men that have docked prob hundreds of litters in their life they will no doubt say they have not witnessed a reaction from any of the pups that constitutes severe pain and suffering.

I have witnessed a pain reaction in pups being vaccinated occasionally, so should I not get him the injection incase I cause him pain.

Probably the worst argument I have ever heard!!!
How can you compare a vacination to prevent illness to removing a perfectly healthy body part for a "look"!!?? :rolleyes: It's disgusting!!
It's not illegal because this country is backwards when it comes to animal welfare, the fact it's illegal in so many other countries prooves that!!

Taking off a dogs tail because you like "the look" :rolleyes::rolleyes: makes me sick!!

tom123456

fatmammycat wrote: »

My initial reply was to East Tyrone not to the OP and my personal views on docking I can pretty much back up with examples and common sense. That you 'like' certain breeds docked has no bearing on the debate at all. You couldn't answer my question as I suspected you couldn't because you appear to be afraid to relinquish outdated and frankly ridiculous practices performed by many misguided people, the chopping of pieces from perfectly healthy dogs for spurious reasons- and banned in increasing numbers of countries with more foreward thinking with regard to dog welfare.
You've said your piece, I've said mine, never the twain shall meet.

No, simply as I've stated this discussion was already done at length in a rather amicable fashion. I;m not interested into getting into any arguments with someone over a differnce of opinion.

eddie12

I often wondered why certain breeds of dogs have their tails docked (boxers, rottweilers, Dobermans. etc). Is that genuinely only for aesthetic reasons?
From my own experience springers and terriers work far heavier cover than pointers, setters, labs and retrievers. I feel that they should have their tails docked if they are working dogs but fail to see the point if they are destined to be pets.

LovelyTom

I've recently got a Standard Schnauzer and when I went to pick my pup I saw that they all had their tales docked, I genuinely had doubts whether or not to buy a pup from the breeder.

I see absolutely no point in tail docking. There aren't even excuses for certain breeds, like the schnauzer, rotties,dobes etc.
I can sort of understand why a hard working field or hunting dog may have it's tail removed, but surely not ever springer spaniel or jack russel terrier is going to be used for hunting and has to go through the procedure anyway.

In my opinion dogs are naturally made to hunt so why would nature dictate that they have tails if they're a hindrence?

Magenta

fatmammycat wrote: »

He's dead, and never bred sheep, so no, he wouldn't. Your argument for structure falls apart the moment you compare say a vizla to a weimaramer or a german pointer, their structure is almost exact to a boxer with a tail, but only some of these dogs are docked. Dobermans have excellent tails ( an ears), but usually docked, rotty's too and jack russells, no need for any of them to be sans tail but because people are after a breed 'look' they are willing to over look their actual actions. It's a cruel practice and as I've already said outdated. I'm not going to continue saying the same thing, I've said what I had to say on the subject.

Exactly.

Look at the tail of a Dalmatian, a Whippet, a greyhound... It's thin, like a Boxer's or a Dobermann's. So why is the Boxer & Dobermann docked and the rest aren't?

Same with Rottweilers. They have a thicker tail like a Labrador's. Why is a Rottweiler docked and a Labrador isn't?

cloudy day

Magenta wrote: »

Exactly.

Look at the tail of a Dalmatian, a Whippet, a greyhound... It's thin, like a Boxer's or a Dobermann's. So why is the Boxer & Dobermann docked and the rest aren't?

Same with Rottweilers. They have a thicker tail like a Labrador's. Why is a Rottweiler docked and a Labrador isn't?

I guess it's just one of those things Magenta that come with the origins of the breed. I don't know about the other breeds only that apparently with the greyhound I've heard the tail acts as a kind of stabiliser. Also Greyhounds are more sedate than boxers. Dobe's don't seem to be as bouncy either.

The labs tail is thicker set than a Rottie's and it works as a rudder in the water. I guess also Labs were traditionally more an outside dog where boxer's as far as I can see lived in the house. Although the boxer is totally diff to the originaters of the breed. I suppose it's down to personal choice as to whether or not people think they look better for long tails.

The same with Jack russels.

Corb

cloudy day wrote: »

I guess it's just one of those things Magenta that come with the origins of the breed. I don't know about the other breeds only that apparently with the greyhound I've heard the tail acts as a kind of stabiliser. Also Greyhounds are more sedate than boxers. Dobe's don't seem to be as bouncy either.

The labs tail is thicker set than a Rottie's and it works as a rudder in the water. I guess also Labs were traditionally more an outside dog where boxer's as far as I can see lived in the house. Although the boxer is totally diff to the originaters of the breed. I suppose it's down to personal choice as to whether or not people think they look better for long tails.

The same with Jack russels.

Yeah I never see Jack russels without their tail docked. Think I've only ever seen one! It looked odd but only because we're used to them having short tails. It doesn't look like it's going to die out soon in that breed unfortunately either. I hate it

kildara

cloudy day wrote: »

The labs tail is thicker set than a Rottie's and it works as a rudder in the water.

I would disagree with you there. Our rottweiler pup has her tail - which I can only describe as being similar to an otter's tail. I think a rottweiler's (or our's anyway) tail is just as thick (if not thicker) than that of a lab.

cloudy day wrote: »

I suppose it's down to personal choice as to whether or not people think they look better for long tails.

That is correct, it is a personal choice whether you think it looks better with or without a tail; but alot of anti-docking people here (myself included) do not think that an animal should be docked purely for aesthetic reasons.

fatmammycat

kildara wrote: »

I would disagree with you there. Our rottweiler pup has her tail - which I can only describe as being similar to an otter's tail. I think a rottweiler's (or our's anyway) tail is just as thick (if not thicker) than that of a lab.



That is correct, it is a personal choice whether you think it looks better with or without a tail; but alot of anti-docking people here (myself included) do not think that an animal should be docked purely for aesthetic reasons.

There's an interesting website here Kildara, http://www.vetsagainstdocking.co.uk/VAD-home-page.html where you can read the opinions of vets and VNs about the practice. I'm delighted it's banned in the UK and looking forward to a day when it's no longer practiced in this country.

Ruby Soho

"Also Greyhounds are more sedate than boxers".

That's true to a certain extent, although I've seen my two crack their tails off walls, windows, radiators with such force I don't know how they've not injured themselves (or broken the window). The male greyhound in particular has an enormously long, whip-like skinny tail, probably about a foot and a half in length, but despite his boisterousness, he's never injured it once.
I do see tail injuries in my practice from time to time, I've seen them in collies, labs etc. There's no trend for seeing them in dogs that are normally docked, its not THAT common, and I do live / work in an area that has a lot of hunting and gundogs.
I have, however seen many docked boxers, rotties etc coming in with problems as a direct result of the docking procedure itself, they're usually docked too short, or the tail vertebrae are exposed due to incorrect docking.
I had a charming man in recently complaining that his puppies tails were still bleeding from where he docked them with a scissors the night before. The pups were EIGHT WEEKS OLD. What an idiot.
I can't wait for the day that docking is banned, to be honest most of the arguments for docking are very very poor and unconvincing to me, and I work in the industry. It is, as my vet says, 'an unnecessary and cruel act of mutilation for the sake of aesthetics', there's no need for it in modern day society at all.

lorna100

OP - while I am against docking 100%, if you insist on it, PLEASE find a vet that will do it, rather than doing it yourself. PLEASE.

Ruby Soho

There are very very few vets in the country who will do it at all. Maybe some down the country but I'd be very surprised if you found one near Dublin or other urban areas anyway. And rightly so

eddie12

I've been window shopping on www.donedeal.ie lately although I'll more than likely adopt a dog from Remi and Helena up in ASH as it'll only be a pet(hardly ever shoot nowadays).
However, I did notice that practically all the traditionally "docked breeds" of animals for sale on the website are docked(boxers,rotties, jack russels etc).
Ruby, you mentioned that most vets wont dock anymore. Does this mean that most people are doing it themselves? It's a frightening thought
Also, you mentioned that you rarely see a dog with an injured tail. Have you came accross a working springer with an undocked tail and if so, are they working away without getting their tails caught in wire etc?

Ruby Soho

Unfortunately, that's exactly what it means, lots of people use the rubber ring method, which is marginally more humane than just chopping the thing off, but its still not acceptable. There probably are vets that still do it, but I've certainly never come across them. So, where else are they being docked but at home?
Most of the springers are docked, but there are a few that aren't, and I've never had any problems with them. We see them with injuries to ears, nails, dewclaws pretty frequently, but funnily enough, not tails. To be honest, the vast majority of springers in the country are only pets, so if the working dogs can get away with it, the pets certainly can! I'm not saying that no working dog should ever be docked, but for the pet boxers, jack russells, dobies and rotties etc, its TOTALLY unnecessary. The worst tail injury I've ever seen by far was in a collie. That doesn't make it appropriate to dock all collies tails because one had an injury though!

BryanL

Circumcision? is allowed but not tail docking, why is that?

Ruby Soho

Ah now come on! That's hardly the same thing! We're discussing dogs here, not Jewish babies, or horses, or lambs.

RaeRae

EastTyrone wrote: »

well, take the english springer spaniel for instance, it is a very hard working dog, it will go into thorn bushes etc to flush pheasants, if it has a full tail, the tail gets caught causing the dog pain, the dog then gets it very badly cut causing more pain. As it is in the field it will get dirt into it causing infection YET more pain, then gang green comes into it and MORE pain, if you get me?

I have a 14 year old springer that I got when I was 6, she was 8 weeks old and her tail had been docked. She is by no means a working dog but she loves running around, getting herself into all sorts of dirty, difficult situations, especially down the country. I don't agree with tail docking in general but I'm thankful she had it done. I love her little stub and it's probably saved her from doing more damage to herself! Most of the other pups in the litter had actually been bought by farmers even though I got her somewhere around tallaght, strange!

I actually rarely see Springers with full tails, and whenever I do it looks so strange to me but I don't have a problem.

reality

cloudy day, you said your problem was vets taking the moral high ground? i am against tail docking for cosmetic reasons, but i know that most vets and vet nurses would rather that we were allowed to do it than have cowboys with scissors running amok. the fact is the vci has prohibited vets from performing tail docks for cosmetic reasons - most vets are not taking the moral high ground, they are protecting their livelihoods. please see: http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Press%20Releases/2009/Press%20Release%20on%20Tail%20Docking%2027.3.2009.pdf

BryanL - erm, circumcision involves the removal of a tiny piece of skin, tail docking involves the removal of coccygeal vertebrae, which are an extension of the spine.

For everyone who thinks tail docking should be done to prevent tail injuries, can i just mention that in my experience we treat far more cases of leg injuries, so i find that reasoning worrying - at this rate, sausage dog will have a whole new meaning :S

reality

a little more light on tail docking http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Policies/Tail%20Docking%20in%20Dogs%20and%20other%20Acts%20of%20Mutilation%20in%20Animals%20%20-%2028.2.08.pdf

Dusty87

Whats the deal wit showing dogs. Do the likes of boxers, rottie's, have to have tails docked??

cloudy day

reality wrote: »

cloudy day, you said your problem was vets taking the moral high ground? i am against tail docking for cosmetic reasons, but i know that most vets and vet nurses would rather that we were allowed to do it than have cowboys with scissors running amok. the fact is the vci has prohibited vets from performing tail docks for cosmetic reasons - most vets are not taking the moral high ground, they are protecting their livelihoods. please see: http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/Links/PDFs/Press%20Releases/2009/Press%20Release%20on%20Tail%20Docking%2027.3.2009.pdf

BryanL - erm, circumcision involves the removal of a tiny piece of skin, tail docking involves the removal of coccygeal vertebrae, which are an extension of the spine.

For everyone who thinks tail docking should be done to prevent tail injuries, can i just mention that in my experience we treat far more cases of leg injuries, so i find that reasoning worrying - at this rate, sausage dog will have a whole new meaning :S

I am well aware of your link to vet ireland having read it some time ago. I am neither pro-active in opinion of for or against banning docking. If it is going to be done it should be done properly by vets, not idiots with scissors at 8 wks of age, that's disgusting and cruel. The vets have allowed a situation whereby if they don't do it the layman can as it is not against the law to dock.

However if it is not against the law I believe people should not be lambasted and attacked by others who have a differing opinion on the matter.

The vci have become very proactive against tail docking and use graphic terms such as "mutalation".

The vets themselves had it banned yet they have no problem mutilating mares with a painful cruel procedure such as a "caslick's" year after year after year. Why are they not pro-active in getting that banned. Is it because the equine breeding system is a very powerful high earning industry where the vet's earn lots of money and would make a lot of enemies if they banned it.

Also what about the vet's who are working for the puppy farmer's and know they are puppy farmer's. Why are they not pro-active about these issues where there is abject cruelty on an ongoing basis.

It seems to be a case of picking and choosing.

Whispered

cloudy day wrote: »

However if it is not against the law I believe people should not be lambasted and attacked by others who have a differing opinion on the matter.

It's also not against the law to hit your dog. While I'm not saying it's the same thing, clearly it's not, I'm making the point that just because the law does not say it's cruel and unnecessary, does not mean that it is not. If people based their morality on what the law says or neglects to say the country would be a terrible place.

To many people, docking is cruel and inhumane, totally unnecessary and usually done for cosmetic reasons. This is why it gets such a strong reaction. It may seem to you to be a difference of opinion and therefore not appropiate for people to react, but if you saw an act of cruelty, or what you think to be an act of cruelty, wouldn't you react?

andreac

cloudy day wrote: »

I am well aware of your link to vet ireland having read it some time ago. I am neither pro-active in opinion of for or against banning docking. If it is going to be done it should be done properly by vets, not idiots with scissors at 8 wks of age, that's disgusting and cruel. The vets have allowed a situation whereby if they don't do it the layman can as it is not against the law to dock.

However if it is not against the law I believe people should not be lambasted and attacked by others who have a differing opinion on the matter.

The vci have become very proactive against tail docking and use graphic terms such as "mutalation".

The vets themselves had it banned yet they have no problem mutilating mares with a painful cruel procedure such as a "caslick's" year after year after year. Why are they not pro-active in getting that banned. Is it because the equine breeding system is a very powerful high earning industry where the vet's earn lots of money and would make a lot of enemies if they banned it.

Also what about the vet's who are working for the puppy farmer's and know they are puppy farmer's. Why are they not pro-active about these issues where there is abject cruelty on an ongoing basis.

It seems to be a case of picking and choosing.

A caslicks is done with local anaesthetic injected into the area so it wouldnt be that cruel as they wouldnt be able to feel the procedure being done.

Vegeta

I think docking for cosmetic reasons is, quite frankly, pathetic. You want the dog to look a certain way so you give it surgery to make you happy. Quite sad really

On the other hand any dog who will receive injury after injury throughout their life may be better served by having it docked.






Docking has a place. Its not for pets.

Before anyone tries to shoot me down I have 2 dogs and neither are docked because they don't beat cover.

If I had a dog which I thought may get injured continuously (Springer or Cocker spaniel for example) then I would get it docked to prevent situations similar to the above pictures.