tail docking

cloudy day

Hi Andreac.

Caslick's is done with anaesthetic, but I've seen it still upsets the mare and it's very sore afterwards and sometimes mare's end up foaling without the stitches being taken out ?

Plus it's done year after year after year ! so you see the state they end up in.

andreac

Yes i understand Cloudy, i work on stud farm and see this being done everyday, but like anything, of course its going to be sore afterwards, but the same can be same for us too, with operations etc, same with neutering, they are in some pain after with that as well.
Yes i have heard of stitches not being taken out of mares before they foal and its not nice, but that is down to bad management.

cloudy day

andreac wrote: »

Yes i understand Cloudy, i work on stud farm and see this being done everyday, but like anything, of course its going to be sore afterwards, but the same can be same for us too, with operations etc, same with neutering, they are in some pain after with that as well.
Yes i have heard of stitches not being taken out of mares before they foal and its not nice, but that is down to bad management.

Not really the same Andreac.

We need an operation out of necessity. The mare doesn't need a Caslick. the owner does purely to put her in foal for breeding = money. Ok, do it once but time and again?

I see that as an act of cruelty, but it's tolerated. The thing with docking is some see it as cruelty some don't. Traditions take time to change. I'm glad ear cropping was banned.

It's like Puppy farming. The same people who are ranting and shouting about tail docking prob don't come out in such force against the PF, if they did, they would be shut down.

Docking is only done once in a dogs life. Caslick's mutalation is repeated time and again.

andreac

This can go around and around in circles really, if we are going to start talking about horses then im sure theres other animals that go through the same kind of procedures, its never ending really.

cloudy day

andreac wrote: »

This can go around and around in circles really, if we are going to start talking about horses then im sure theres other animals that go through the same kind of procedures, its never ending really.

So true. I'm actually changing my own views on docking. Which is the issue.

kildara

Dusty87 wrote: »

Whats the deal wit showing dogs. Do the likes of boxers, rottie's, have to have tails docked??

(This applies to UK only, I don't know the stance in Ireland)
Depending on the breed standard, the dog was always able to be shown with their tails intact - it was just more usual for the dog to be docked.


UK introduced the Tail Docking Legislation in 2007, effectively banning the docking of dogs tails (with an exception for certain working dogs and for medical reasons). Tail docking for these exceptions must be carried out by a vet and the dog must be less than 5 days old.

With regard to showing your dog; if the dog was docked before the date the ban came into force (28 March 2007 in Wales and 6 April 2007 in England) then the dog can be shown anywhere in UK for the rest of its life.
A dog docked after thesee dates cannot be shown at any show in England or Wales where the public are charged entry, regardless of where the dog was docked - this means that any Irish dogs cannot be shown in England or Wales if they were docked after these dates.
Any dog legally docked (regardless of where) can be shown in Northern Ireland and Scotland for the rest of its life.

The introduction of this law in UK will have an effect of Ireland due to being unablet o show your dog at Welsh and English shows (Crufts being the most famous), so Irish breeders wishing to show their dogs will have to leave their dogs with their tails.

maslan007

ples do not dock the puppys tail its not write leave well well alone :(:eek:

suraheg

Anyone who says you should do it when theyre a day or two old is lying! They do feel it. I am a vet nurse, who used to work for a vet who did it (rubber band method) and even though they were a day or two they sqealed.. Its like saying oh a baby a day old wont feel it. I mean of course they probably wont remember it, but its not really the point is it? Its purely for cosmetic reasons, and its ridiculous!

Ruby Soho

I don't like the way the Caslicks is constantly used as a comparison here. This procedure is not a cosmetic one, it is usually used to treat the primary cause of pneumovagina which can lead to persistent endometritis, vaginitis and consequent infertility of broodmares.
It is usually performed either using a local anaesthetic or an epidural anaesthetic. I'm sure that in practice, it may be done by some unscrupulous individuals without pain relief, but in general its done properly and not unnecessarily. Sure its not pleasant, but its not the same as tail-docking.

cloudy day

Ruby Soho wrote: »

I don't like the way the Caslicks is constantly used as a comparison here. This procedure is not a cosmetic one, it is usually used to treat the primary cause of pneumovagina which can lead to persistent endometritis, vaginitis and consequent infertility of broodmares.
It is usually performed either using a local anaesthetic or an epidural anaesthetic. I'm sure that in practice, it may be done by some unscrupulous individuals without pain relief, but in general its done properly and not unnecessarily. Sure its not pleasant, but its not the same as tail-docking.

The reference to caslicks was made due to vet's not possibly having a "cross the board" attitude with cruelty, mutilation, etc, for whatever reason.

Also we know why caslicks is done, to get mares into foal to make money. Breeding. why not stop breeding from the mare instead of performing a cruel act of mutilation on her, even if it's done with anaesthetic. so it's not pleasant but it's seen as ok as someone is going to make money from it. Funny how peeps have different attitudes from horses to dogs.

katiemaloe

I understand that many breeds are traditionally docked and often for either working purposes or showing. But I feel it is a terrible thing to do. Tail wagging and position is a major way for dogs to communicate with each other. It is also so lovely to see a dog wagging his tail happily. The tail is an extension of the spine, surely this must be horrifically painful to be removed and for no reason. Please don't remove thier tails and be proud of your happy healthy beautiful pups.

Ruby Soho

I didn't say anywhere that I thought the Caslick's was ok to do. I just think that it doesn't have a place in a argument for or against the docking of pet dogs for aesthetic purposes. Horse breeding in Ireland is a major economic industry, it doesn't bare any relationship to whether or not your pet boxer has a long tail.
I think that medical manipulation of any animal for aesthetic purposes is just wrong, but the Caslick's (whether I agree with it or not) is not, and has never been about the mere appearance of a horse.
This argument can, and has gone around in circles, there are so many comparisons that can be made with many other species who are 'doctored with' for various reasons. I think that the docking of tails is the only one with absolutely no purpose other than outward appearance, and not one argument that is presented here for docking is going to change my mind about it.

cloudy day

Ruby Soho wrote: »

I didn't say anywhere that I thought the Caslick's was ok to do. I just think that it doesn't have a place in a argument for or against the docking of pet dogs for aesthetic purposes. Horse breeding in Ireland is a major economic industry, it doesn't bare any relationship to whether or not your pet boxer has a long tail.
I think that medical manipulation of any animal for aesthetic purposes is just wrong, but the Caslick's (whether I agree with it or not) is not, and has never been about the mere appearance of a horse.
This argument can, and has gone around in circles, there are so many comparisons that can be made with many other species who are 'doctored with' for various reasons. I think that the docking of tails is the only one with absolutely no purpose other than outward appearance, and not one argument that is presented here for docking is going to change my mind about it.

As was already said, although i will say it again. The reference to caslicks was made in relation to vets, picking and choosing their standards. Nothing to do with what you or anyone else thinks about docking. About vets having DOUBLE STANDARDS. Horse breeding in Ireland is a major economic industry, EXACTLY the reason the vet's won't be getting it banned, too much money to be made.

I'm sure if you re-read the post it explains that point thoroughly.

No, it's not about caslick's, we know that.

turtle21

Lambing rings are brutally cruel AND illegal for the purpose of docking.

To dock or not to dock is a very hot emotive issue on both sides.I personally do not like it and would not do it (my 2 Rotts look MUCH better with their lovely chubby tails than their 'stumpy' brethren IMO)

I can see the point of it with some working dogs however and do not criticise their owners for wishing to spare them pain.

Note of interest : I heard a while ago that Doberman rescue in the UK was overloaded because breeders couldn't sell their undocked pups so were dumping both youngsters and adult breeding stock.

The sooner the public get used to the "new" look of the customarily docked breeds wagging their full tails the better.
And the sooner the breeders learn to listen to the agonised screams of the infant pups as they are mutilated the better.Just because the tail is so tiny it can be cut with scissors doesn't make it any the less an amputation...A vet doesn't give anaesthesia when he does it so it hurts the pup just the same...

Rachel 999

fatmammycat wrote: »

Again CD you're trying to move the goal posts. Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Do you have a solid reason as to why a rotty or a doberman should have their tail docked other than to achieve a certain look? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm genuinely curious.

Rotties and Dobes are guarding breeds. With docked tails it is hard to tell the temperment of the dog in his working siuation i.e dog can look more menencing . Had a Dalmation 20 years ago , used to split her tail every time she was near any solid objects.

ghost_ie

EastTyrone wrote: »

It is not cruel when it is done when the pup is a day old, it is not cruel when it ios actually saving the dog from unnecessarry pain.

I have three rescue dogs. One is a labrador-collie cross whose tail was not docked. The other two are Jack Russells whos tails have been docked. Can you explain why it was necessary to dock the tails of the Jackies and not that of the Lab cross? What pain is suffered by a Jack Russell with an undocked tail that is not suffered by a Labrador or a Collie?

fatmammycat

Rachel 999 wrote: »

Rotties and Dobes are guarding breeds. With docked tails it is hard to tell the temperment of the dog in his working siuation i.e dog can look more menencing . Had a Dalmation 20 years ago , used to split her tail every time she was near any solid objects.

So are German Shepherd but we don't slice their tails off.

iguana

LovelyTom wrote: »

I can sort of understand why a hard working field or hunting dog may have it's tail removed, but surely not ever springer spaniel or jack russel terrier is going to be used for hunting and has to go through the procedure anyway.

In my opinion dogs are naturally made to hunt so why would nature dictate that they have tails if they're a hindrence?

Nature doesn't dictate anything, dogs are selectively bred not naturally occurring through evolution. Humans have made them exactly what they are today.

I have pet springers, working strain, and they both have partially docked tails. Initially I was quite sad that this was done to them, but having seen first hand the damage they do to themselves I'm extremely relieved about it. Toby took the tip off his tail a year ago, it was a simple injury to treat with dettol and a cotton swab, but if he had not been docked he would have needed an amputation which is a serious, potentially fatal, operation. Dougal has often cut the tip of his tail too, I suspect both of them would have needed their tail operated on if they had never been docked. They might not work, but their instincts still tell them that charging through bramble bushes, along with swimming, is the most fun activity on earth.

They still have quite a lot of their tail, about 1/3 is gone, so they can use their tails for communication. And a lot of people are surprised to learn they are docked.

Toby and Dougal.

There is a really interesting story of a springer who damaged her full tail here: http://springthing.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=14861&hl=

I compare it to preventative circumcision. Close male relatives in both my husband's and my families have needed adult/teen circumcision due to extremely tight foreskin causing pain and possible injury. So if I ever have a son I will be asking the doctor to examine him as an infant to see if circumcision is recommended for medical reasons. If it is I'd prefer to circumcise the infant, as a minor procedure in infancy is preferable to a more serious, extremely painful and excruciatingly embarrassing operation as a teenager/young man.

Rachel 999

fatmammycat wrote: »

So are German Shepherd but we don't slice their tails off.

GSD's are also a herding breeding and needed their tail for balance. The dobe was purpose bred for guarding work by Louis Dobermann. The rottie was a drovers dog and used as a draft dog.

Lauragoesmad

I have always had issues with tail docking due to pain but over the last few years I have been finding other issues with it.
I have petsat and walked many dogs with docked and undocked tails. I find that far more dogs with docked tails are either frightened or aggressive towards other dogs than the undocked ones. I have seen two dogs in particular who get very confused about body language around other dogs. They back off late in play where an undocked dog knows what position to put their tail when they are threatened and are saying "Right thats enough!".
I have seen docked dogs get very frightened of playing dogs as a wagging high tail means nothing to them.
A tail is more than a tool for balancing, it is a means of communication for lots of dogs and taking it away when they are so young, DOES affect their relationships with other dogs.

fatmammycat

Exactly, dogs communicate with their tails as well as other body launguage signs. There is no need for a 'guard' dog to be docked, unless a person is a complete moron, a large barking dog will be a deterrant tail or no tail. Hunting dogs aside, docking and cropping are done on pets to achieve a certain 'look', it is totally ridiculous to cut up perfectly healthy dogs to make them look a certain way. Anyone with a lick of compassion for an animal would not put them through unnecessary pain and/or discomfort and the sooner people stop demanding dogs be docked or cropped the sooner the 'fashion' will die out. Were I to ever get another doberman I would request an undocked dog from my breeder.

kildara

Rachel 999 wrote: »

GSD's are also a herding breeding and needed their tail for balance. The dobe was purpose bred for guarding work by Louis Dobermann. The rottie was a drovers dog and used as a draft dog.

The rottweiler was also a herding dog. Why do they get their tails sliced off?

Rachel 999

kildara wrote: »

The rottweiler was also a herding dog. Why do they get their tails sliced off?

The rottweiler was known as the butchers dog in the town of rotweil Germany. The butcher need a strong dog to protect him on the way to market with his cash. Then on returning to his butcher house he needed a strong dog to drive (drover) the cattle in to the slaughter house.

hpsheba

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

I have always had issues with tail docking due to pain but over the last few years I have been finding other issues with it.
I have petsat and walked many dogs with docked and undocked tails. I find that far more dogs with docked tails are either frightened or aggressive towards other dogs than the undocked ones. I have seen two dogs in particular who get very confused about body language around other dogs. They back off late in play where an undocked dog knows what position to put their tail when they are threatened and are saying "Right thats enough!".
I have seen docked dogs get very frightened of playing dogs as a wagging high tail means nothing to them.
A tail is more than a tool for balancing, it is a means of communication for lots of dogs and taking it away when they are so young, DOES affect their relationships with other dogs.

I work with dogs as well and sometimes I really wonder what is going on with the docked tails???? I don't agree with it at all BUT I can understand why the owners of some working dogs would have opted to have it done or have bought their dog with a docked tail. Having said that, the majority of the dogs I see every day are household pets who aside from their twice daily walk, spend ( thankfully ) most of their day chilling out with the occasional trip to the beach for a swim! Yet most of the Golden Cockers, Yorkies, Springers, some of the Westies and even some of the cross breeds are coming in with docked tails. Yesterday I had a Westie x Pom in and he had a docked tail???? Why????? He was 10 weeks old and bought from a BYB for €150 three weeks ago. I asked the new owner why and she said thats the way he came..........

To get back to the original question here, don't get your dogs tails docked unless medically necessary. Thats my 2 cents anyway.

fatmammycat

Right, so now, as they are not used as guard dogs by many people why are they still docked?

kildara

Rachel 999 wrote: »

The rottweiler was known as the butchers dog in the town of rotweil Germany. The butcher need a strong dog to protect him on the way to market with his cash. Then on returning to his butcher house he needed a strong dog to drive (drover) the cattle in to the slaughter house.

Whilst what you have said regarding the Rottweiler (also used for protection droving etc [whats the difference between droving and herding??]) is correct, it remains that the Rottweiler originated as a herding dog – in fact its origins in herding lie further back in history than that of the GSD.
What you seem to be suggesting (and I apologise if I am wrong) is that because the GSD is a herding dog (it has also incidentally, been used as police dogs, guide-dogs, tracking, rescue, agility, obedience etc) it needs its tail for balance, but that because the Rottweiler is used for those other reasons, that it doesn't need its tail.

These two breeds are used for a lot of the same reasons – I actually can’t bring to mind a job one does that the other doesn’t – so again I ask you, why should the Rottweiler be docked and the GSD remain undocked, if not for aesthetic reasons?

justhedog

kildara wrote: »

Whilst what you have said regarding the Rottweiler (also used for protection droving etc [whats the difference between droving and herding??]) is correct, it remains that the Rottweiler originated as a herding dog – in fact its origins in herding lie further back in history than that of the GSD.
What you seem to be suggesting (and I apologise if I am wrong) is that because the GSD is a herding dog (it has also incidentally, been used as police dogs, guide-dogs, tracking, rescue, agility, obedience etc) it needs its tail for balance, but that because the Rottweiler is used for those other reasons, that it doesn't need its tail.

These two breeds are used for a lot of the same reasons – I actually can’t bring to mind a job one does that the other doesn’t – so again I ask you, why should the Rottweiler be docked and the GSD remain undocked, if not for aesthetic reasons?

We as a modern generation seemed to be obsest with downing what the older generations have been doing for hundreds of years. Who is to say they are wrong or right, They have been around for a lot longer than some of the people on this board.

Rachel 999

kildara wrote: »

Whilst what you have said regarding the Rottweiler (also used for protection droving etc [whats the difference between droving and herding??]) is correct, it remains that the Rottweiler originated as a herding dog – in fact its origins in herding lie further back in history than that of the GSD.
What you seem to be suggesting (and I apologise if I am wrong) is that because the GSD is a herding dog (it has also incidentally, been used as police dogs, guide-dogs, tracking, rescue, agility, obedience etc) it needs its tail for balance, but that because the Rottweiler is used for those other reasons, that it doesn't need its tail.

These two breeds are used for a lot of the same reasons – I actually can’t bring to mind a job one does that the other doesn’t – so again I ask you, why should the Rottweiler be docked and the GSD remain undocked, if not for aesthetic reasons?

Having worked sucessfully with over 5 herding breeds, dogs that herd work out around the animals away from the handler,whilst droving breeds stay with the handler and prefer to be behind the stock.

kildara

justhedog wrote: »

We as a modern generation seemed to be obsest with downing what the older generations have been doing for hundreds of years. Who is to say they are wrong or right, They have been around for a lot longer than some of the people on this board.

Not being smart but I have no idea what you mean.

kildara

Rachel 999 wrote: »

Having worked sucessfully with over 5 herding breeds, dogs that herd work out around the animals away from the handler,whilst droving breeds stay with the handler and prefer to be behind the stock.

Okay, I see the difference now.
But (as you said before about the GSD), Rottweilers are also a herding breed and needed their tail for balance. So why do we dock Rottweilers and not GSD?