Three Year Licence Fee Increase ???

J.R.

I was at the NARGC county AGM a few nights ago and they announced that the intention of the Dept. of Justice was to increase the 3 year licence fee which is due to be enforced this year.

The price has not been decided yet but it's to be between €80 - €100 for each firearm....shotgun, rifle, pistol etc. for a three year period.

The feeling at the meeting was that it was a ploy to:
a. raise much needed funds
b. try to get the number of guns reduced....a lad with 4 guns will find it expensive to pay €400 this year plus club fees, especially in the present economic climate. If he used 1 or 2 on a regular basis he may be tempted to try to sell the other two, which are seldom used to try to cut costs.

If this happens guns will become worthless....supply & demand......as there may be a surplus traded in in July.

They also stated that Des Crofton reckoned that the only leverage he would have at the meetings would be 20,000+ letters from shooters rejecting the proposal....this I gather is, at present, being prepared & worded to be sent to each NARGC club secretary.

Sparks

You'd think they'd forgotten what happened last time they tried to raise the licence fees. Feck's sake, we were promised an across-the-board lowering of fees to €25/year/firearm.

kildarejoe

I dont suppose they will see sense and change the licence structure so that the person is licensed and gun details on one licence. Similar to uk licences.
Or like your driving licence, you dont have to have different licences for a car, a motorbike, a tractor, a bus, a truck etc. Imagine the confusion and extra work and expense that would create.
Wouldent it cut costs significantly if you had a 3 or 5 year licence, creditcard type with your photo (added security).
Once you recive garda clearance and security checks couldent the motor tax office look after the paperwork side of it.
Just a sensible suggestion but when did our politicans do anything sensible.

Ned Muldhoon

Heard it's going to be 100 euro per firearm - that includes subsequent shotguns and limited licenses.

Cass

S***! €100 per firearm. 9 firearms in the household and both me and my father are members of 2 clubs. Thats a grand total of €1770. i know its for 3 years but...... S***!

J.R. you said its "due to be enforced". Is that a definite? If so need to raid the kids piggy bank.

riflehunter77

Anyone know for certain how much we will be paying there is two many numbers flying about the place. Or a time frame from when we find out ?

Ned Muldhoon

riflehunter77 - since the FCP was privy to all discussions, the only thing I think we could do would be to ask them or check the relevant websites, or then again that could be a waste of time.

Sparks

Ned - did you do that?

Ned Muldhoon

NARGC, CA and IFA, including a slew of local TD's and councillors. some if the local reps I spoke to were shocked at the lack of communication from the NGB's and bodies proporting to support our sport(s). The only ones with any balls appear to be the IFA.

TBH, at the point now where I couldn't care less. Mr. Ahern will push this bill through with the full support of the bodies on the FCP (don't even try to feed us with the BS that they knew nothing about it and / or could do nothing).
Noticed there is no communication apart from the official DOJ line on the various websites?

It wasn't me!

Of course they could do nothing! You are aware that that's how the law works, right?

Ned Muldhoon

how the law works - yes! you'd be suprised how close to it I work, so please spare me any barrack room lecture.

My issue is with months of 'have faith in consultative process' etc. All NGB's / FCP members were at all times aware they could publish progress reports etc - yet nothing came about.

Anyway, all done and dusted now (anyone who believes any different is living in a fools paradise).

Sparks

1) Progress reports were posted, though not anywhere near as many as there should have been - on that we're in agreement both in public and in private;
2) I think you had some serious misconceptions about what the law would allow the FCP to do, given your past posts on this one Ned;
3) The FCP with all of its faults is still something we only wished we could have ten years ago. And I have very, very distinct memories from then of the wise old men saying it would never happen, and the shouty people saying it would never happen and basicly, they were both wrong.

And despite the problems and flaws, I'd much rather fix the bugs than bin the FCP.

jwshooter

i heard its going to be E65, a firearm regardless of what it is for the 3 years.

Sparks

And by the way - "done and dusted"? Would you mind waiting until after you try before you give up? Where's your letter to your local TDs? To the Minister? To the TDs on the Justice Committee? To the spokespeople for Justice on the various opposition parties? Who've you met or called or emailed?

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

i heard its going to be E65, a firearm regardless of what it is for the 3 years.

Aye, it was that or €66 I'd heard myself. Was wondering where the hundred squids figure came from.

riflehunter77

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Aye, it was that or €66 I'd heard myself. Was wondering where the hundred squids figure came from.

Two many numbers flying all around the place, its like getting a quote off a builder

jwshooter

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Aye, it was that or €66 I'd heard myself. Was wondering where the hundred squids figure came from.

66 it was, iwm

Grizzly 45

22 quid a year then per firearm.THEN it is more reasonable than some current prices?

J.R.

jwshooter wrote: »

66 it was, iwm

€65 or €66 was the figure 'bandied' about by the Dept. of Justice last year. They claimed they didn't want to raise fees but neither did they want to lose any money with the changeover.

The income made from firearm renewals for three years was divided by the number of licences at the time to come up with a figure...... which worked out at €65 or €66 per firearm for three years.

At the meeting I was at the committee had a typed letter from Des Crofton stating the €80 - €100 figure.........unfortunately they didn't have a copy for everyone as more members attended than was anticipated.

The committee had also been in contact with Des by phone in relation to the matter. He pointed out that in the present economic climate the public would have little sympathy for shooters suffering the increase when others were losing jobs, pensions, homes etc.

This was the reason he suggested that a standard letter send to him by 20,000+ members would be the only clout of any significance that he could bring to the next meeting.

I suggested that a copy of the letter to be drafted should also be made available on NARGC website whereby all shooters could access it to sent to him completed.......nothing on site yet.....the meeting was last Wednesday evening in Monasterevin.

J.R.

from a summary of the FCP

FEE STRUCTURE:
The last increase in the fee level was in 1992 and before that 1964! The Department of Justice will not seek to make a profit from license fee revenue but neither will the Department subsidise it. For the first three-year licence period, the Department of Justice will not seek to increase overall revenue income but will offset the cost of the scheme by savings which will be achieved in lower administration costs of the three-year licence.

All firearms will attract the same fee irrespective of whether the firearm is a shotgun, second/subsequent shotgun, rifle or pistol.

The fee per firearm will be based for the first three-year licence period on the total revenue in 2007 divided by the total number of firearms registered in 2007, multiplied by three. Based on the figures which were placed before the Panel at the time this structure was agreed, this would appear to indicate a fee per firearm somewhere in the order of €66 for the first three-year licensing period. However, the fee may vary slightly as the agreed structure for arriving at the fee will take account of the final revenue and final number of firearms registered in 2007.

The training licence fee will be 50% of the normal fee.

But this was released some time ago.....before the bust!

J.R.

Another issue that was raised at the meeting was if fees to gun clubs would decrease once a person had received the 3 year licence.

The fear was that a member may renew their Gun Club fees this year and pay for their 3 year firearm licence. Next year or the year after they may not pay gun club fees as they have their licence anyway and may feel that they don't have to pay fees to get licence. This issue is to be addressed by the FCP who are aware of this.

clivej

I am just back in from talking to my FO and she told me that she was at a meeting last week in Dublin with ref. to the new license and other issues.

Well the cost will be €99 per gun for a 3 year license and will last for 3 years from date of issue. It should be in by August IF the act is signed in by/before then.

Plus it's looking grim for the handguns.

chem

Rip off!! Whats the news on the pistols clive? anything else get a mention?

clivej

chem wrote: »

Rip off!! Whats the news on the pistols clive?..........

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.

chem wrote: »

......anything else get a mention?

Only that my application for a new gun license has/is tonight going from the FO's office to the Super's office and it's only taken 8 weeks to get up stairs.

meathstevie

clivej wrote: »

I am just back in from talking to my FO and she told me that she was at a meeting last week in Dublin with ref. to the new license and other issues.

Well the cost will be €99 per gun for a 3 year license and will last for 3 years from date of issue. It should be in by August IF the act is signed in by/before then.

Plus it's looking grim for the handguns.

She f'ing joking is she ? From 66 to 99 is some increase between planning and implementing.

chem

Not to fear. Or NGBs will come dashing to the call and put right the wrongs................wait for it...........easy now.............any minute now!!..................................................................................
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clivej

What I'm I missing here. I know it's €25/year for a shotgun but I'm paying €38/year for my gun license and for 3 years that's €114 so I'm I not saving €15 over the 3 years?

J.R.

clivej wrote: »

What I'm I missing here. I know it's €25/year for a shotgun but I'm paying €38/year for my gun license and for 3 years that's €114 so I'm I not saving €15 over the 3 years?

You're right - if you are discussing rifles or handguns ....they're €38 per year per gun which is, as you rightly point out, €114 for three years.....so the new licence for €99 for three years is indeed a saving of €15 over three years.

The majority of guns in Ireland would be shotguns which were €25 per year or €75 for three years ...an increase of €24 over three years.

The real sting is the licence renewal for a second or subsequent shotgun....anybody who had a second, third or fourth shotgun paid €25 for the first shotgun & €6 for each shotgun thereafter.

A second shotgun under the old system would cost €18 for three years ....now it will cost €99.....a increase of €81 !!!!!!!!!! ........now if you have 2, 3, or 4 shotguns then that is one heck of an increase.

J.R.

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.


AS far as I can make out handgun licences will be renewed if one has a valid reason but no new licences will be issued, except under exceptional circumstances.

---

Dermot Ahern:
I will deal first with the sections which deal with matters of public safety and control. Section 28 addresses the licensing of handguns. For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision and has resulted in an unacceptable new trend in the growth of handgun ownership which the House should now end. It would be disturbing if the assumption that a positive outcome for some shooting interest groups in some judicial review cases on licensing matters was somehow seen as an accretion of rights. This is flawed logic and I want to dispel any notions that there are any inherent rights to be considered here.

I am aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms, they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them. I do not agree with this view as it would constitute an unacceptable position in which where our gun laws could mirror those of countries such as those of the United States. If the current position were to continue unchecked, this scenario would be realised. We cannot allow this to happen. It is my duty as Minister to call “Stop” and address the current specific issues and longer-term strategic issues at the heart of this matter.

I would never be satisfied with circumstances in which firearms were freely available or, as in some jurisdictions, a notification system were in place under which one purchases a firearm and informs the authorities afterwards. I was conscious of the remarks made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court last July that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns. I am aware, too, of calls made by many Members of the Oireachtas from parties on both sides to address this matter. It was against this background that I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Following from that review, my proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions for handguns designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations. As I announced at that time, those who already have licenses can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed albeit under the new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

chem

J.R. wrote: »

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.


AS far as I can make out handgun licences will be renewed if one has a valid reason but no new licences will be issued, except under exceptional circumstances.

---

Dermot Ahern:
I will deal first with the sections which deal with matters of public safety and control. Section 28 addresses the licensing of handguns. For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision and has resulted in an unacceptable new trend in the growth of handgun ownership which the House should now end. It would be disturbing if the assumption that a positive outcome for some shooting interest groups in some judicial review cases on licensing matters was somehow seen as an accretion of rights. This is flawed logic and I want to dispel any notions that there are any inherent rights to be considered here.

I am aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms, they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them. I do not agree with this view as it would constitute an unacceptable position in which where our gun laws could mirror those of countries such as those of the United States. If the current position were to continue unchecked, this scenario would be realised. We cannot allow this to happen. It is my duty as Minister to call “Stop” and address the current specific issues and longer-term strategic issues at the heart of this matter.

I would never be satisfied with circumstances in which firearms were freely available or, as in some jurisdictions, a notification system were in place under which one purchases a firearm and informs the authorities afterwards. I was conscious of the remarks made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court last July that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns. I am aware, too, of calls made by many Members of the Oireachtas from parties on both sides to address this matter. It was against this background that I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Following from that review, my proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions for handguns designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations. As I announced at that time, those who already have licenses can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed albeit under the new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

Minister wakes up the morning after the bill is passed. "Eh, I think pistols are to dangerous to have licenced in the community" All pistols banned. End of.

He will have that power if this bill is enacted as is

clivej

J.R. wrote: »

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.


AS far as I can make out handgun licences will be renewed if one has a valid reason but no new licences will be issued, except under exceptional circumstances.

J.R.
Please I know I'm out of my depth here on the handgun issue and I'll not comment on this anymore but please Don't shoot the messenger. And the FO was still not 100% sure of the current situation.

Cass

What I'm I missing here. I know it's €25/year for a shotgun but I'm paying €38/year for my gun license and for 3 years that's €114 so I'm I not saving €15 over the 3 years?

I'm of the same opinion. I have no subsequent licences so in the long run it works out slightly cheaper for me, (although with membership fees it will be a large one of expense initially), but i know that will not be the case for everyone.

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

As for the above NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Anyone pre November 18th will retain their licence albeit under stricter conditions. All those post November 18th will have a fight on their hands but as J.R. said nothing is written in stone so hope is not lost. Lets face if they try to ban all handguns licenced post November 18th by refusing licences how long will it be before someone thinks to challenge the legallity of allowing certain citizens to own handguns while not allowing other citizens. One word for you Discrimination.

Thank you for your patience this ends my rant.

Meyer

clivej wrote:

Plus it's looking grim for the handguns.

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed

I had a chat with my FO today, and he was of the opinion that a sizeable quantity of handgun licences will be renewed (And that includes licences issued since the November 19 pronouncement by the Minister.), albeit under stricter terms. For instance own a handgun and you are not a member of an authorised pistol range...then forget about it! you have no excuse to have a handgun, so you licence will not be renewed. Own a handgun and not have adequate security... no renewal. Own a handgun and are a member of a pistol range, and yet the clubs books show you have never visited the range... no renewal.
Bottom line, If you have a handgun and are a member of a range, that you visit as often as you can, your licence will be renewed(Probably). If not then...

p.s. As far as the Ministers November 19 watershed is concerned, Any handgun licenced since that date cannot be revoked simply because he says so! The law might at times be an ass, but a law has to be in place before it can be acted on, so Ahern will have to bite the bullet on that one (Forgive the pun ).

Sparks

Lads, the FOs don't know what's going to happen, any more than anyone else does. We don't even know if the Bill will get through the Oireacthas in time to be commenced this year, or even if the local & EU elections will have an effect. On top of all of which, unless your FO is also your Super, they don't have any legal role in all of this and we've even been told by the Gardai to bypass the FO if there's a problem with licencing and go straight to the Superintendents, so I think a fairly large pinch of salt is needed with their predictions of what's going to happen.

(On the other hand Meyer, if that bill passes, then the licences issued after Nov.19 will be revoked. No ifs, ands or buts).

Jonty

Meyer wrote: »

For instance own a handgun and you are not a member of an authorised pistol range...then forget about it! you have no excuse to have a handgun, so you licence will not be renewed. Own a handgun and not have adequate security... no renewal. Own a handgun and are a member of a pistol range, and yet the clubs books show you have never visited the range... no renewal.

But this does not seem extreme to me. Its logical, if this will be the case.

G17

Jonty wrote: »

But this does not seem extreme to me. Its logical, if this will be the case.

Seems quite logical and fair too. If you just like the look of pistols get a replica or high end airsoft.
I'd like to be able to concentrate on training! We spend an hour every range day chatting about what might happen!

Grizzly 45

Ahhh,but the high end airsoft replicas might be illegal too under this act.OR you will have to get one in weird and wonderful Day Glo colors..

One other thing...DONT let An Post handle the re applications....
Consider this..We all have to had to increase our security by various stages depending on what guns we own..Now this has been on the demand of the Gardai,who in all fairness have kept our details of who,what and where 98% secure from leaks or loss.[Excluding of course the disaster of the addressed firearms dept headed envelopes and nothing is 100% perfect in this life].
People have had their guns referred to in crypitic gunowner/Gardai phone conversations as "devices" .Lest maybe the phones are being tapped or listend into.:eek:

So now we want to hand this to an organisation who loses mail,sends it to wrong addresses betimes,is not very private or secure,or confidental.I mean,imagine queing down in some post office when it is Miss Scumbags child allowance day and no doubt you are there reapplying at no doubt a hatch marked in both English and Irish Gun liscenses.There is a good chance that you will be noted by one of these people and this info will be passed back to Mr Scumbag as to where a "shooter" might be aquired.Or worse,your applications are mis deliverd to someone with your name in the wrong side of town,thussly creating unbeliveable troubles for your security.
IOW the one State organ that is at least going to be responsible with very sensitive information,is going to hand this information over ot another semi state organ??So will we expect a "gun liscense inspector" to show up on our doors??
Thanks ,but no thanks.I'd rather let the Gaurds stay handling this one.

J.R.

clivej wrote: »

J.R. wrote: »

J.R.
Please I know I'm out of my depth here on the handgun issue and I'll not comment on this anymore but please Don't shoot the messenger. And the FO was still not 100% sure of the current situation.

Clive - there was no offence meant towards you in any of my posts - far from it.....I just cut & pasted the ministers speech from Oireachtas Report.

All of us here Clive seem to out of our depth as there has been no official announcement on what the fees are to be....just rumours and second hand information.....everybody is just trying to pass on what information they've heard to try to make sense of it.

If a price for the renewals has been agreed the least the DOJ could do is inform us of it.

fish slapped

Have to agree with Grizzly on this, as at least once a week I get post addressed to someone else :eek:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ahhh,but the high end airsoft replicas might be illegal too under this act.

Er, no, they won't. They'll just be airsoft, same as before.

rrpc

I have to say that I find the whole licence fee hike (or even the current levels) to be usurious.

In terms of other licence fees that are paid by the citizens of this state, the firearms licence is the least capable of showing value for money.

Somewhere in the region of six million euro is collected every year and apart from a printed piece of paper and a world of grief plus a measly €35,000 from the Sporrts Council, the square root of fup all gets back to the shooting sports.

I'm not sure what senior Gardai get paid these days, but on the basis that a Super gets in the region of €100,000, then we are paying for 60 of them! Any attempt to justify the licence fee on the basis of cost of production falls flat in the face of that little statistic.

No other licence fee (that I know of - and I'm open to correction here) makes such a 'profit' for the state. They could put a million a year back into the sport and still be making money!

Then I'd be happy to pay an increase.

rrpc

fish slapped wrote: »

Have to agree with Grizzly on this, as at least once a week I get post addressed to someone else :eek:

That's your local postman, who also delivers your renewals from Garda HQ, so I don't see how you're any less open to that kind of security breach right now.

Anyway, AFAIK, it's the cash collection part of the licensing system that's being farmed out, not the actual licence itself.

Grizzly 45

T'would be most helpful if that point were clarified RRPC.
Sparks,
Wasnt it a scuttlebutt that the high end stuff was going to have to be either liscensed,painted odd colors and/or be sold thru regd dealers ala the UK in the new act,or done away with?Or am I reading this wrongly??

G17

Latest word on the street is €33 per firearm per year or €99 per firearm for the 3 years. The staggered basis is apparently going to work on a free gratis extension from 31st July to a particular date, restricted holders first in the queue. Every 3 years one has to apply again fresh in case there's any changes in your personal situation. Gardaí will handle no money which I'm sure will be terrific news for a lot of suffering firearm officers around the country.

2nd last week of June is the deadline to have all this passed through.

Also some if not all divisions have been 'guidelined' to not to process any applications for the next few weeks until eveything is bedded down.

I want a prize if my info is right; something tasteful.

It wasn't me!

No applications? Wang. I was going to be putting in for one in the immediate future, as soon as a bill of sale arrives.

Sparks

Not that I'm taking a swipe at G17, but if I had a euro for every time I heard "gospel truth" from "the street" that turned out to be - to be polite about it - wrong, well, I would be able to take up fullbore shooting

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Not that I'm taking a swipe at G17, but if I had a euro for every time I heard "gospel truth" from "the street" that turned out to be - to be polite about it - wrong, well, I would be able to take up fullbore shooting

Well, for a limited time and at limited cost, *cough*!


My good deed for the day, giving Sparks things to agonise over!

Sparks

Argh!

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Argh!

Job: Done


*politecough* Would it help if I mentioned I know of a good supply of very reasonably priced ammunition for such an implement, for the practising? And match-grade stuff, while stinging, is significantly less than 6BR.

Sparks

Back to the original topic before I go broke fast

rrpc wrote: »

I have to say that I find the whole licence fee hike (or even the current levels) to be usurious.
In terms of other licence fees that are paid by the citizens of this state, the firearms licence is the least capable of showing value for money.
Somewhere in the region of six million euro is collected every year and apart from a printed piece of paper and a world of grief plus a measly €35,000 from the Sporrts Council, the square root of fup all gets back to the shooting sports.

Very true. JayCee worked it out once - the total amount the government gives back to the sport via the ISC works out at about €2 for every competitive shooter out there. And for the hoops we're forced to jump through to get that money, you'd think they thought that was a lot - the degree of shock they felt when informed of the costs that your average shooter is laying out just to get to the firing line was apparently quite substantial. There was just no comprehension of the amount of money we put into our equipment, nor of the amount some disciplines (especially F-Class) use up in a competitive season for consumables and travel and other expenses.

It wasn't me!

Indeed. Some of the extreme F-Class calibres like the 7mm WSM could eat two barrels a season no bother. At what, €500 a barrel? That's seriously pricey, considering the amount of money ammo for something like that costs in the first place. It's just painful when people caw and preen themselves everytime a shooting athlete brings home something shiny, as if it's a personal and national victory (It's certainly a national one), but then spend the rest of their time making it as difficult for people to actually partake in the sport.