Man Shot Dead By Gardai During Attempted Robbery

donvito99

jetski wrote: »

Nope, you are.

Ok, firstly the Abbeylara incident happened years ago. There have been reports and what happened on that day have been spelled out plain and clear. This incident happened TODAY, why are you already comparing it to Abbeylara.

jetski wrote:

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

Not true, and a leg is a smaller target, increasing the risk of him firing back.

djtechnics1210

jetski wrote: »

Hes contradicting himself.

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

If you had bothered doing a bit of research before posting... AGS does not have a policy of shooting people in legs/arms.... you aim for the biggest mass of the body, which is unfortunately the chest area.

The reason being that all AGS are not trained marksmen.
Armed Garda shoots at leg/arm there is a high chance they will miss due to target moving etc..... this in turn will end with some unfortunate civvy behind the target taking a bullet

djtechnics1210

Oh and Jetski before ya start preaching to me about firearms/shooting, leg shots etc etc.
I am ex PDF and a current armed member of AGS so i know what im talking about.

Shooting people in arms and legs accurately with a handgun is extremely hard especially when the target is moving and in a live fire environment.
You shoot to stop the threat = not to disarm it/wing it/wound it.... tickle it

2qk4u

I was delighted to hear they got shot, I hope some more of them go down as well. If you produce a gun in a public place with the intention of commiting a crime you should expect to get dead.. The only reason they didnt shoot a Garda or an innocent passer by is that they were so out of it on drugs they couldnt react quick enough...

djtechnics1210

Even if AGS had time to get snipers into position so as to shoot him in the leg/arm/.
Both these weapons which would have been used by AGS snipers and would have blown most of pals arm/leg off, which would have resulted in him more than likely dying anyway

orddecentctizen

Loss of a human life is always to be regretted and all efforts should be made to prevent this. This applies to all citizens. However, any citizen who produces a firearm in a public place in a threatening manner, and in a context where the threat of violence is explicit (as when you attack an armoured car or bank), cannot expect the same absolute protections the general population would because the people we ask to protect us may have to resort to lethal force to counter lethal force. This is sad and regrettable but there's only a small group of men who got up this morning and wanted to take that risk and now one of them is dead. I'm glad we have brave men and women in AGS who take this burden on their shoulders to protect us.

By the way, the photographs of large powerful sniper rifles could be interpreted as a rather gung ho and dismissive attitude to the loss of a human life today.

utick

jetski wrote: »

Hes contradicting himself.

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

first of all the leg is not a big target, easy to miss much better to aim at the centre of large area of the body like the middle of the chest unfortunatly will likely result in a kill. secondly unless u are very close to the suspect to shoot in the knee, there is a high possibility of death from being shot in the legs as there are alot of major arteiries and veins in the legs

ronivek

orddecentctizen wrote: »

By the way, the photographs of large powerful sniper rifles could be interpreted as a rather gung ho and dismissive attitude to the loss of a human life today.

Considering the first half of your post was so well thought out I'm surprised you didn't bother to read the actual post associated with the pictures.

Racedriver

I am totally behind the Gardai in this case. They have a duty to protect the public from harm and they have done that today, lets hope it sends a message to the filth that plan and execute these crimes that if they are willing to lift a firearm then they are willing to die by one.

A Primal Nut

jetski wrote: »

Hes contradicting himself.

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

Not really, he could still shoot and indeed is more likely to shoot if he had been shot once.

I don't see why you think gardai should risk their lives for an armed robber or crazy guy who locked his own mother in the house for a few days. This is what they do for a living and they are on these scenes becaue its their job, not because they like to shoot people.

I believe Chef was pointing out that the bit before he came out of the house may have been handled better. No sane person could suggest the gardai had any choice once he came out of the house.

BrandonFlowers

I'd like to congratule the guards involved in this operation today, i think they did all that was nessesary and proportionate in the situation and as a fairly new member myself i would like to think if it came to it i wold have the courage to do the same without having to worry about consequences. Well done lads.

2qk4u

2qk4u wrote: »

The only reason they didnt shoot a Garda or an innocent passer by is that they were so out of it on drugs they couldnt react quick enough...

Were you there today? Did you meet the raiders before or after the robbery attempt? Did you carry out blood tests on them to find out they were under the influence of drugs?

If not then you cannot make such a comment.

Well done to those involved in stopping this gang, hopfully it will put of other gangs with similar ideas.

santosubito

jetski wrote: »

Hes contradicting himself.

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

That, alas, is bollox. I remember attending the Carthy inquest in Longford. I remember John Harbisond describing his wounds - all bar the fatal one were to his legs. He was shot in the legs to stop him, but it simply didn't work. Three shots and he's still walking...

Spartan09

Congragulations to the brave Gardai today who in the face of armed resistance from criminals returned fire and defended the state on behalf of its citixens. In my opinion any citizen who goes out in public with a firearm with the aim of comitting a crime and who is challenged by the Gardai to lay down their arms and does not and who is shot dead / injured by AGS can have no justifable reason for compaint. Thanks to all involved for defending the security of the state with complete justification

Poccington

jetski wrote: »

Oh, so you agree with the killing of John Carthy.

During the 24 hours he spent in his house during the stand off, Mr. Carthy fired numerous rounds from his weapon. Then when he finally came out, he was still armed and moving towards members of AGS... They would've been mad not to shoot him.

orddecentctizen

Thanks Ronivek, I had read the post, the pictures could have been interpreted differently but I think we're of a similar mind. Good clarification.

Poccington

jetski wrote: »

Hes contradicting himself.

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

You don't pull the trigger with any part of your foot or leg. If you're gonna open fire, you want to put the target out of action and a shot to the leg most likely won't do that.

Then of course there's the fact that aiming at someone's leg whilst they're advancing on you with a loaded weapon is just idiocy. You aim for centre mass, so you know if you hit them they're out of action, simple as.

IRISH RAIL

I just wanted to thank the gardai today dopey Andy was walking out of the centra with his chicken sandwich when all hell broke loose watching a man getting shot then finding out he is dead is pretty shocking thanks to the guys and girl from qc who looked after me.
also those guys be them eru or sdu ( they were just in caps) were on the ball and I also got a little awakening when I realised it aint just mondeos the cops drive.
well done to all

Fishtits

Guys, Abbeylara (sp?) was a shambles, since acknowledged.

(had pints in Bordeaux with the "Super IC" BTW, didn't discuss the event.)

More recent AGS firearms incidents have been better handled, Targeted shots have been backed up by inteligence.

AGS have obviously got their ROE and good luck to them..

Lads, if people want to talk about the Abbeylara incident start a new thread. This is about todays shooting. John Carthy wasn't shot today.

Sorry mods

drunkmonkey

jetski wrote: »

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

the guns not scary enough, something like this ADS would have done the job nicley

Whitewater-AGS

jetski wrote: »

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

Another keyboard warrior with years of firearms experience.

Jesus if you do your job somebody starts giving out, If you dont do your job somebody starts giving out:mad:

Well done to all involved today and hopefully they wont be filling out paper and attending tribunals until retirement. Was good work and sends out a nice strong message.

dvpower

DublinWriter wrote: »

Personally, yes. He came marching out of the house with a loaded shotgun after a prolonged siege. He also fired a few rounds at neighbouring houses prior to the siege.

If the family were that concerned after the event, then why didn't they restrict access to firearms to a family member that they knew had had mental health issues?

There was a whole tribunal that considered the matter that was very critical of the Gardai - they can make mistakes, and while its understandable to look at it from the point of view of individual members, the Gardai needs to hold the support of the general public and the incident at Abbeylara didn't do them any good at all. Trying to divert blame onto the family is just wrong -Justice Barr specifically criticised the Sunday Indo for this kind of nonsense.

Let's not mix John Carthy up with armed robbers.

Shield

OK people listen up.

An instruction has been given by a forum moderator here not to discuss Abbeylara or John Carthy on this thread.

Some of you have chosen not to follow this instruction, thus leaving us no choice but to either close this thread, or start handing out bans to those to refuse to obey moderator instructions.

I have decided to choose the latter, so be warned: This thread is not for discussing ANY OTHER incident other than the incident in question.

If anyone takes this thread off topic again, your post will be deleted by me, and you will be banned from this forum.

Last warning.

JonAnderton

Everytime something like this happens, we get a replay of previous posts about "why wasn't he shot in the leg?".. couldn't they have bean bagged him" etc, etc... foillowed bythe inevitable mentioning of incidents from the past.

Every time...


Decided not to bother making any other posts on this thread now... whats the point...

DCTF

jetski wrote: »

Hes contradicting himself.

I dont expect them to do nothing, a shot in the leg will be more than enough to stop someone, you dont need to kill them.

Anyone carrying firearms in any professional context in any western country will tell you that if you draw your firearm you shoot to kill no such policy as wing him. A person shot in the leg can still pull the trigger. When you fire a weapon in self defence it's because all other avenues are exhausted and its as a last resort. hence why we don't have snipers at the side of the road for every joyrider

dvpower

JonAnderton wrote: »

Everytime something like this happens, we get a replay of previous posts about "why wasn't he shot in the leg?".. couldn't they have bean bagged him" etc, etc... foillowed bythe inevitable mentioning of incidents from the past.

Every time...


Decided not to bother making any other posts on this thread now... whats the point...

Good question. What was the point of that post?

Terrible isn't it, that every single time someone gets shot, people wonder if there might have been a better tactic employed

dvpower

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Another keyboard warrior with years of firearms experience.

Jesus if you do your job somebody starts giving out, If you dont do your job somebody starts giving out:mad:

Well done to all involved today and hopefully they wont be filling out paper and attending tribunals until retirement. Was good work and sends out a nice strong message.

If your job sometimes involves shooting someone, this inevitably involves close scrutiny, lots of paperwork and, sometimes, tribunals. That's just part of the deal.

Complaining about this oversight sends out a really bad message.

DCTF

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I just wanted to thank the gardai today dopey Andy was walking out of the centra with his chicken sandwich when all hell broke loose watching a man getting shot then finding out he is dead is pretty shocking thanks to the guys and girl from qc who looked after me.
also those guys be them eru or sdu ( they were just in caps) were on the ball and I also got a little awakening when I realised it aint just mondeos the cops drive.
well done to all

Just thought it might be worthwhile to remind people who have seen something in the past or today that for operational reasons car makes and models used by specalist units shouldn't be talked about. If you saw a hi spec mondeo or something thats fine but as the OP say "it aint just mondeos the cops drive". It's still unclear what actual units were involved NBCI, OCU maybe NSU etc etc so what you were able to see because of what happened should not be mentioned except for what was on the news.

Just my thoughts know some NSU lads.

Shield

dvpower wrote: »

Complaining about this oversight sends out a really bad message.

I don't see any complaining in the post you quoted. What I do see is him referring to the possibility that the paperwork and tribunals could be lengthy. As far as I'm concerned, there is no bad message being sent out in that post.

Back on topic please.