Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

Roryhy

patgill wrote: »

Hi all,
I am still talking to you even though you mentioned the Steorn word, I actually wouldnt mind having a few of their bobs.
The position is that we have changed our strategy, we have lost so much time because of Lisbon and NAMA and the total preoccupation of the government and opposition on these areas that we have decided to go ahead and choose 1, 2 or 3 sites and submit them to scrutiny by the local authorites, and local and european environmental authorities, we have met NPWS and they have outlined a course of action they would like us to follow in this regard.
Alongside this we are moving forward on the funding part of the project and S of I people have been meeting financial advisors in London and on the continent on the shape of the financial prospectus needed.
Things are moving fast now but not fast enough.

Pat

Interesting, thanks for the update and best of luck

Amtmann

Patgill, what lessons has SpiritofIreland learned from the M3 and Glen of the Downs protests? While I'm 100% supportive, perhaps your organisation should also conduct a 'heritage survey' or some such investigation, to ensure that the valley you ultimately choose isn't the final resting place of Cúchulain, for instance. (Personally, I think Cúchulain was a bit of a wimp and I wouldn't mind if his cairn was flooded, but there are a lot of NIMBYs and BANANAs out there who would. Forgive my facetiousness - but I think you get my point.)

Calina

patgill wrote: »

Hi all,
I am still talking to you even though you mentioned the Steorn word, I actually wouldnt mind having a few of their bobs.
The position is that we have changed our strategy, we have lost so much time because of Lisbon and NAMA and the total preoccupation of the government and opposition on these areas that we have decided to go ahead and choose 1, 2 or 3 sites and submit them to scrutiny by the local authorites, and local and european environmental authorities, we have met NPWS and they have outlined a course of action they would like us to follow in this regard.
Alongside this we are moving forward on the funding part of the project and S of I people have been meeting financial advisors in London and on the continent on the shape of the financial prospectus needed.
Things are moving fast now but not fast enough.

Pat

Pat, given that up front you stated that you needed minimal amounts of government intervention, and that the need for a second referendum on the treaty of Lisbon was required was known before you went public, I find it surprising that you cite government preoccupation as a cause for delay on your side. I'd also add that NAMA, while a very serious matter, is particularly important for the Department of Finance, and since you have no budgetary requirements from the state - as I recall - and if anything you'd be dealing with the departments responsible for energy and environment, I don't buy that either.

I also understood from your own site in the early days that you had already chosen the sites but did not want to tell anyone what they were for reasons of communicating effectively with the communities concerned. Are you telling me now that you had not actually chosen those sites at all? Again - your language here is telling. "we will go ahead with the choosing of 1, 2 or 3 sites".

It all sounds rather watery in terms of planning at present.

When will the financial prospectus actually be released?

Sponge Bob

patgill wrote: »

We have met NPWS and they have outlined a course of action they would like us to follow in this regard.

That is meaningless because fundamentalists who work for the NPWS and Fisheries Boards etc often use An Taisce and sometimes FIE to raise their objections for them and they never fail to oblige .

There is an unholy array of environutters just waiting to get at you Patgill.

Murray and Lumley of An Taisce and Lowes and Sweetman of FIE . None of them are engineers although you would not thinks so listening to them . FIE "emerged from An Taisce" some 12 years ago .

They are all obsessed with bogslides right now and object to every thing by metioning bogslides . They need to be faced down in an bord pleanala and grilled. None of that lot are engineers and are not fit to make engineering arguments . Engineers , indeed, are all bad and evil and look at these evil works by ways of example .

Bogslides and Bog Bursts have always been with us , lots of evidence if you research . Make sure you are fully prepared for this lot .

patgill

Furet wrote: »

Patgill, what lessons has SpiritofIreland learned from the M3 and Glen of the Downs protests? While I'm 100% supportive, perhaps your organisation should also conduct a 'heritage survey' or some such investigation, to ensure that the valley you ultimately choose isn't the final resting place of Cúchulain, for instance. (Personally, I think Cúchulain was a bit of a wimp and I wouldn't mind if his cairn was flooded, but there are a lot of NIMBYs and BANANAs out there who would. Forgive my facetiousness - but I think you get my point.)

The lessons we have learned from the M3, Glen of the Downs and other similar situations are that you cannot sidestep the environmental impact of a project of the scale of ours. In fact the environmental effort will be the most expensive part of the feasability studies at each site. We have decided that the only way forward is to go to the EU and ask for their comments and this process is under way now.

Calina wrote: »

Pat, given that up front you stated that you needed minimal amounts of government intervention, and that the need for a second referendum on the treaty of Lisbon was required was known before you went public, I find it surprising that you cite government preoccupation as a cause for delay on your side. I'd also add that NAMA, while a very serious matter, is particularly important for the Department of Finance, and since you have no budgetary requirements from the state - as I recall - and if anything you'd be dealing with the departments responsible for energy and environment, I don't buy that either.

I also understood from your own site in the early days that you had already chosen the sites but did not want to tell anyone what they were for reasons of communicating effectively with the communities concerned. Are you telling me now that you had not actually chosen those sites at all? Again - your language here is telling. "we will go ahead with the choosing of 1, 2 or 3 sites".

It all sounds rather watery in terms of planning at present.

When will the financial prospectus actually be released?

Calina, we are spending almost all of our allocated public facetime in the west at present, perhaps it is time we had one or two public presentations on the east coast. If it was felt this would help to inform people more fully on the east coast this would be accomodated in a heartbeat, I will personally be at meetings in three western counties this week and an early night would be appreciated, ask and you shall receive.
You are discounting the breadth of this project and the impact that it can have on the economy of the country. In essense we are asking the country to take a new view on energy, from being a net importer of same to becoming a net exporter. This cannot be achieved without the engagement of a lot of government departments and state agencies and even the occasional politician.
As regards the actual site selection this is not an easy task, we must balance environmental impact, special areas of conservation and habitats along with searching endless databases to find the owners of common land etc.
The decision on the first site to be developed will be made from the S of I viewpoint as soon as possible, however we will attempting to develop our research on three sites simultaneously.

WE have been on the continent this week and last working on the financials and again this information is readily discussed in general at our public and private meetings, but we must be careful about releasing too much information, as it is becoming very apparent that we have opened a can of worms and there are a few birds of prey preparing to have a feast.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is meaningless because fundamentalists who work for the NPWS and Fisheries Boards etc often use An Taisce and sometimes FIE to raise their objections for them and they never fail to oblige .

There is an unholy array of environutters just waiting to get at you Patgill.

Murray and Lumley of An Taisce and Lowes and Sweetman of FIE . None of them are engineers although you would not thinks so listening to them .

They are all obsessed with bogslides right now and object to every thing by metioning bogslides . They need to be faced down in an bord pleanala and grilled. None of that lot are engineers and are not fit to make engineering arguments . Engineers , indeed, are all bad and evil and look at these evil works by ways of example .

Bogslides and Bog Bursts have always been with us , lots of evidence if you research . Make sure you are fully prepared for this lot .

Sponge Bob
There will always be people who will never see our point of view and what is important is that we put in the effort to convince the majority that our cause is just.
Our complete 20 year development plan will be capable of powering our own country and at the same time export approx €3 billion of electricity annually and to do that we would only impact less than one percent of the SAC areas in the country. I think that is a fair trade.

Sponge Bob

patgill wrote: »

We have decided that the only way forward is to go to the EU and ask for their comments and this process is under way now.

Good idea Pat. I believe there is also a mechanism whereby a member of the EU Parliament can ask a Commissioner for an Opinion on a matter too especially if Gormley and Ryan refuse to ask the right questions.

A plan such as yours could also translate to northern Spain and northern Portugal given their mix of wind and seaside valleys and to Norway .

There will always be people who will never see our point of view and what is important is that we put in the effort to convince the majority that our cause is just.

My point was that you cannot reason with a banana .....don't answer that

Our complete 20 year development plan will be capable of powering our own country and at the same time export approx €3 billion of electricity annually and to do that we would only impact less than one percent of the SAC areas in the country. I think that is a fair trade.

Yes indeed , simply calculate what carbon is expected do to sea levels and how much SAC land loss each 1m rise in sea levels will cause in terms of

1. Inundation and total loss of land .
2. Degradation short of total loss as a result of increased salinity
3. Degredation short of total loss caused by increased wetness as rivers back up above the high tide mark and overflow

Same 1m calculation adjusted for more severe storms as is also expected

( I take it you have hydraulics experts ...An Taisce and FIE have none )

patgill

Calina
As an example of the influence S of I are beginning to have on the Energy topic in Ireland, please see the latest energy report from the National Competitiveness Council.
It will also be worth reading the latest wind energy strategy from Clare Co Council, a lot more councils will be following suit shortly.

Pat

weepee

Perhaps the economic impact outweighs any environmental or historical impact on this one?

patgill

A public announcement on the subject of Spirit of ireland happened today, but it didn't come from me.
From the DAIL debate on NAMA

If we accept that the NAMA legislation will pass and if it pays that €22
billion, that will leave us with €30 billion or so that the State was
willing to throw away into speculators pockets that could be used for
something else. I will put forward some radical but realistic
suggestions for how that money could be used to benefit the State for
the foreseeable future and underlie a basis for the new economy required
for the country. Most Deputies have seen or received e-mails about a
proposal termed Spirit of Ireland, a radical proposal to ensure security
of energy. Energy security is a major issue throughout the world and
every economy wants to ensure that when oil and fossil fuels run out or
prices go out of kilter, they will have their own sources of energy.
The Spirit of Ireland proposal would employ tens of thousands of people
for up to ten years in the construction phase and also provide security
of energy for the future. I urge the Government to consider investing
this type of money into that project rather than into NAMA. The
advantage of this would be we would not only get energy security, but
would also make a profit which could then go to other projects.

And it was not a green who said that, franchise battle about to erupt???

Sponge Bob

patgill wrote: »

And it was not a green who said that, franchise battle about to erupt???

It was a Deep Green type of TF , Aengus O Snodaigh of Sinn Féin .

ei.sdraob

so any updates?

was the detailed plan released to look over?

Azelfafage

Carawaystick wrote: »

Looking at the map of the average wind speed, the west coast has the most wind. so offshore should have more wind. again avoiding the backyard of anyone.

nuclear fission is the way to go for some amount of baseload power,
and some interconnector to France or guarantees to transit rights through britain.

The west coast is almost constantly buffeted by wind.

Calm days are a welcome rarity on the west coast.

Those who say the wind blows only one third of the time must live in basement flats in Dublin.

Wind, Wave, Solar and Nuclear will save the planet.

.

patgill

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so any updates?

was the detailed plan released to look over?

Hi All
We are currently briefing 5 government departments on our project and have engaged with the environmental and energy directorates in Brussels, we expect the initial phase of this process to be completed by the second week in December, at that time we will make a decision on releasing a detailed update to the public, however what I can say know is that we have written quotations from several manufacturers, which enable us to state that we have reduced the installed cost of wind energy by 30%, in a few weeks certain local authorites will publish wind strategy amendments that were unthinkable 12 months ago and will further reduce the cost of wind energy.
Our HSR's can be built for €800 miliion and can generate dispatchable electricity for approx 7.5c a unit for twenty years, with an allowance required only for increased labour costs every few years.

Pat Gill

patgill@spiritofireland.org

martmang

Hi all. I'm a new poster but have been watching this board for a while with great interest. This project is revolutionary and I wish you the best of luck with it.
However, I just wondered what effect the development of new energy storage technology may have on the economic and political viability of the project as a whole. I wonder if you have seen the following article for example http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/liquid-battery.html
Thanks
Martin

patgill

martmang wrote: »

Hi all. I'm a new poster but have been watching this board for a while with great interest. This project is revolutionary and I wish you the best of luck with it.
However, I just wondered what effect the development of new energy storage technology may have on the economic and political viability of the project as a whole. I wonder if you have seen the following article for example http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/liquid-battery.html
Thanks
Martin

Martin
I apologise for the delay in replying to you, our noses are hard against the grindstone at the moment, I would refer you to the electricity storage association website, where all storage technologies are compared, on cost, efficiency, life expectancy etc, you will see that if you can afford, it pumped storage is the one that you want for large scale storage, and of course using the sea as the lower reservoir and a U shaped glacial valley as the higher reservoir cuts your costs by over half.

http://www.electricitystorage.org/site/technologies/

regards
Pat

Amtmann

Hi Pat, how much longer until you release possible locations and detailed feasibilty and constraints reports?

Sponge Bob

I reckon poor old SOI are buried in a soup of NDAs and exclusive agreements on raising finance and are more constrained than they were 6 months ago .

Commercial reality meets open source ( again) . Way it is .

patgill

Furet wrote: »

Hi Pat, how much longer until you release possible locations and detailed feasibilty and constraints reports?

We are in Brussels next week to talk to the environment directorate, we will have finished briefing the government in a few weeks, I suspect that it will be the local communities that will leak sites first.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I reckon poor old SOI are buried in a soup of NDAs and exclusive agreements on raising finance and are more constrained than they were 6 months ago .

Commercial reality meets open source ( again) . Way it is .

Not yet in our case anyway, although I really do understand what you mean.

I will be able to illustrate more fully the effects of some of our work in exactly 7 days, when a local authority is due to publish something !!!

Pat

Carawaystick

Azelfafage wrote: »

The west coast is almost constantly buffeted by wind.

Calm days are a welcome rarity on the west coast.

Those who say the wind blows only one third of the time must live in basement flats in Dublin.

.

There's often no wind in the west, where the wind farms are anyway. Right now there's less than 200MW being generated.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/windgenerationtable/

check last Christmas Eve and Christmas day. max wind power over the 2 days was 124MW, about 10% of installed capacity

patgill

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's often no wind in the west, where the wind farms are anyway. Right now there's less than 200MW being generated.

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/windgenerationtable/

check last Christmas Eve and Christmas day. max wind power over the 2 days was 124MW, about 10% of installed capacity

Carawaystick

Part of the problem experienced by the wind industry throughout Europe is that the Grid usually does not go anywhere near the areas of highest wind resource, grids were built over the last century to suit thermal power plants close to cities, this means that most windfarms are simply in the wrong place and they were built where they were usually because there was a grid connection close by.

Spirit of Ireland propose to build and finance a collection grid for our windfarms and then build them in the right place.

Hotblack Desiato

patgill wrote: »

I will be able to illustrate more fully the effects of some of our work in exactly 7 days, when a local authority is due to publish something !!!

Exactly more than seven days later, where is it?

patgill

ninja900 wrote: »

Exactly more than seven days later, where is it?

Last night, Clare County Council adopted their strategic wind strategy as part of their county development plan. This is a groundbreaking document which places renewable energy and its development, in the driving seat of County Clare's economic recovery.

The adoption of renewable energy and its strategic importance in the economic development of the western counties will soon be replicated in all of the western counties.

Game on.

Calina

Pat is Spirit of Ireland going to release the detailed documentation they have been promising since May or not?

Sponge Bob

I guess they will release them in the areas they intend to operate in first. If I were in Wexford i would not be impressed were plans released nationally without the courtesy of a local heads up first.

Even if the sequence was only a few days it would be wise not to tell us before they tell the locals, shades of Bellinaboy and all that .

patgill

Calina wrote: »

Pat is Spirit of Ireland going to release the detailed documentation they have been promising since May or not?

Calina
We will be active very soon, in the meantime if you have any specific questions please PM me.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I guess they will release them in the areas they intend to operate in first. If I were in Wexford i would not be impressed were plans released nationally without the courtesy of a local heads up first.

Even if the sequence was only a few days it would be wise not to tell us before they tell the locals, shades of Bellinaboy and all that .

Sponge Bob
That has been our attitude from the start and that will not change.

People assume that because we are not on the Pat Kenny show every week that we are not working hard. Take a look at the grid adaquacy report from Eirgrid, there is now a whole section on large scale pumped storage headlined by a nice picture of the Okinawa seawater pumped storage reservoir. And the title page has a picture of Turlough Hill.
That did not happen by itself

http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Generation%20Adequacy%20Report%202010-2016.pdf

Pat

Sponge Bob

The one to remember about rural Ireland is that there are two nutters in every parish who show up at every public meeting and who cause havoc and make a lot of noise. Not a few are hard core loud green sounding loonies too

Against that there are many reasonable people with whom headway can be made quietly and steadily. These are the majority.

Once the latter are generally onside then an announcement may be made and never mind the loonies.

Bellinaboy is a case study on how NOT to parachute nationally significant infrastructure into a local area without judiciously feeling for and listening to the wider stakeholder communities in that area.

One could even call it a CIS or COMMUNITY Impact Survey ...and it is every bit as important as any EIS which is an EU requirement but which totally ignores the community in favour of flora and fauna

patgill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The one to remember about rural Ireland is that there are two nutters in every parish who show up at every public meeting and who cause havoc and make a lot of noise. Not a few are hard core loud green sounding loonies too

I have met them!!!!

Against that there are many reasonable people with whom headway can be made quietly and steadily. These are the majority.

Once the latter are generally onside then an announcement may be made and never mind the loonies.

Bellinaboy is a case study on how NOT to parachute nationally significant infrastructure into a local area without judiciously feeling for and listening to the wider stakeholder communities in that area.

Agreed, the only thing is, at our recent meetings with the EU, it was suggested that this project does not have national importance, it has INTERnational importance.

One could even call it a CIS or COMMUNITY Impact Survey ...and it is every bit as important as any EIS which is an EU requirement but which totally ignores the community in favour of flora and fauna

Now that is a truly excellent idea, can I borrow it and use it.

Pat

Sponge Bob

course you can,

The initial outreach would be characterised as a Preliminary CIS and that would set the operational parameters for a Full CIS later on. Every community has different needs and each community should logically set the parameters for the full survey itself at the PCIS stage.

and the slogan

No EIS without a CIS too!

patgill

Sponge Bob

Trust me the EU people will love it too

Ugool

I've just read the Strategy for Wind Clare County Council have adopted and it makes total sense.

http://www.clarecoco.ie/Planning/Docs/DraftWindEnergyStrategy.pdf

I hope the other Counties get off their asses & copy this approach now.