Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

MackQ

I read with interest the adverts placed by The Spirit of Ireland volunteer "Expert Group" in today's national press.

In my view certainly an initiative with huge merits. What does everyone think?

More information can be found at http://www.spiritofireland.org

Tech3

From having an electronics background, I believe renewable energy is the way forward.

It a well laid out website but some serious questions need to be asked:

- Is there enough research for a potential investment

- Wind turbines are great when wind is there but has any energy resevoir been properly functioning. I know that germany are creating one of these at the moment in order to supply energy when wind is not available.

- We dont have the educated workforce in the sector at this moment in time. As far as Im aware only one institute of technology in Ireland has created a renewable energy course.

adrem

Good to see someone trying to move this concept forward - seems to have been a lot of talk but not much action to date in this area

murphaph

We could achieve near energy independence (and possibly independence depending on whether or not we have uranium) with wind/wave/tidal/hydro/solar/gas and one single nuclear power station. Of course transport is the most difficult area to remove fossil fuels from the equation but it is possible. Best of luck to ANYONE who pushes this agenda-Ireland needs badly to be more energy independent. It stregthens our country and makes it a more desirable place to do business.

Dan Jaman

I hope it's got legs. It's not a new idea, I thought of it years ago and I'm sure I merely dredged up an old SF book's content from memory I do hope this Igor chap isn't claiming it's all his wheeze.
The two essentials - cheap electric and cheap storage are available right now, and now is the time when we are all mindful of energy costs. Of course, there will be NIMBYs, but the only answer to them is to steamroller over them for the common good. Just like the Shell thing off the coast, eh?

con_leche

It's not a new idea, and the advert is vague, but it's here and it's now and it's bold.

This entity seem to have vision, drive, and energy.

Ireland needs a project like this now.

gilesy

If the hydro-capacitor thing produces more electricity than is required to operate it why cant it power itself and we can sell the surplus?

Carawaystick

gilesy wrote: »

If the hydro-capacitor thing produces more electricity than is required to operate it why cant it power itself and we can sell the surplus?

The Hydro power station uses more energy than it generates, like Turlough Hill which uses ~310MW and generated 290MW. The ESB seem to have pulled the information web page on Turlough Hill, which explained pumped storage well. but see here -

The reservoir is filled during the windy times when the wind power section has more than enough generation capacity. when a calm spell occurs, then the reservoir is emptied, generating power

To paraphrase the Simpsons "in this country, we obey the laws of Thermodynamics"


I heard the guy on the radio this evening, It'd be interesting to get some numbers to see how many valleys would be needed to be dammed (or damned) and how much power could be generated and for how long.

of course seeing the nimby's complaining about powerlines in Meath and Connemara would raise some issues about the feasibility of it all...

Dan Jaman

of course seeing the nimby's complaining about powerlines in Meath and Connemara would raise some issues about the feasibility of it all...

I must admit, when I saw the state of those NIMBYs I honestly thought they'd already been exposed to some horrible experiment.

murphaph

If we're not hell bent on total energy independence but rather on generating more electicity than we need, we could just build the turbines etc. and sell the excess to the european grid and buy nuclear energy from France (totally self sufficient in electricity due to nuclear energy) for the times the wind stops blowing. It should be the first step IMO, rather than going hell for leather into damming valleys. But if it proves unstable we should look at the mass pumped storage option coupled with a single nuclear plant of our own. It'd be nice to rely totally on wind and hydro but you need a backup, just in case.

Steviemak

Sounds like a great idea - and the fact that they are doing this out of their own pocket is commendable. I would be very interested in how many dams would be needed to make us self sufficient - 5, 20, 50??

If we throw in wave, tidal and some bio-mass we could become self sufficient.

I've heard some people argue that wind turbines scar the landscape etc but the way i look at it when man discovers a sustainable and cheap form of energy in the future the turbines will come down. Compare that to impact of strip mining or destroying our bogs etc.

Calina

Okay.

I am not an engineer but I have major issues with this.

Steviemak as far as I can understand the scant available information, we are not per se talking about traditional dams but pumped storage stations, akin to Turlough Hill.

The actual power will be generated by wind turbines - again based on the scant information I have to hand on this - and excess power will be used to pump water into the dams; when there is no power from wind, the pumped stations will be opened to generate hydroelectric power.

I have heard mention of 2 pumped storage systems but I could be wrong because again the website = scant on the info. However the press release mentioned two reservoirs for this at a cost of 800million euro each. The bit I find hard to understand is they expect to have all this running in five years. This is because I expect these to be reasonably big pumped storage stations. Turlough Hill took 6 years to build. It is not big. The two biggest that I know about each took 10 years to build. One of them cost 450 million pounds sterling to build between 1964 and 1974. Turlough Hill cost 20million punts by comparison, and was about one sixth the size.

If the pumped storage systems are to cater for wind free days they will have to be a lot, lot bigger than Turlough Hill in my view.

I am not an engineer and spiritofireland.org has not provide many figures for me to look at. Until they do, I remain unconvinced.

Carawaystick

The main issue with a having a lot of wind power supplying your electricity is that you need a large backup for the calm days. the last few Christmas periods have seen almost a week of no wind - remember the chaos with the english airports closed due to fog in 2006.

There are many shorter calm periods. The Hydro backup system smoothes these calm periods out.

I'd imagine ( without any hard evidence but a hunch) that wave power would lag a lull in wind by an amount of time, a day or two, so wave power would seem to be a good idea - as it's offshore there's no one's backyard there - Otoh, there's no widely used, well proven, wave power systems out there.

Looking at the map of the average wind speed, the west coast has the most wind. so offshore should have more wind. again avoiding the backyard of anyone.

nuclear fission is the way to go for some amount of baseload power,
and some interconnector to France or guarantees to transit rights through britain.

Sizzler

Just saw this thread, had posted about this in AH yesterday as I thought it would get some good feedback!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055558335

Posters on here a little more positive about it though

Cheeble

One of the important tenets of sustainability is preserving the environment for future generations.

How do we square this with bricking up the west coast?

Cheeble-eers

Dan Jaman

We bury the NIMBYs in the dam walls - sorted.

Steviemak

Cheeble wrote: »

One of the important tenets of sustainability is preserving the environment for future generations.

How do we square this with bricking up the west coast?

Cheeble-eers

It would be ten lakes at the tops of mountains - their not exactly planning to turn the west coast into one massive suburb of Galway, for example, like we have done with the east coast and dublin.

If this is viable and it may not be then the it would be more than worth it. It would stop billions of euro being transferred from Ireland to the Saudis and Russians every year and we would have stable and cheap electricity for ever. Not a bad trade off for ten lakes and a few windfarms.

Thats if it works!

A bit of vision is required here. Don't forget that during the 20's and 30's when we hadn't a button we had the forsight to invest in hydro - why not not now??

serfboard

Steviemak wrote: »

A bit of vision is required here. Don't forget that during the 20's and 30's when we hadn't a button we had the forsight to invest in hydro - why not not now??

Indeed - at a time when the country really was a basket case, we built Ardnacrusha - one of the largest civil engineering projects of its type in the world.

Of course, that was just after independence, when the politicians of that time had a vision for the country.

ardmacha

nuclear fission is the way to go for some amount of baseload power,

I disagree. Wind power fluctuates, it doesn't need a steady baseload source, it needs a source that can be powered up quickly. Gas power stations might fit the bill, just don't use them on windy days.

The pumped storage needs big suitable sites and is hard to find these and there is inevitable opposition. NIE had a plan for a scheme in the 1970's and there is still a large hole in Camlough Mountain in South Armagh were some work was started on this. Perhaps somewhere like Killary harbour could be used for tidal energy or even for pumped storage.

SparkyLarks

tech2 wrote: »

- We dont have the educated workforce in the sector at this moment in time. As far as Im aware only one institute of technology in Ireland has created a renewable energy course.

We have a lot of talented Engineers in this country, with more than enough experience to carry out this project.

there are technical issues on this project than need to be fleshed out and possibly a cost comparison to nuclear.

/but the one thing we do have is the people capable of carrying it out.

Nostradamus

MackQ wrote: »

More information can be found at http://www.spiritofireland.org

Like the idea, but at the same time this gave me the creeps.

Kinda Scientology meets The Venus Project feeling about it. Just a little too New Age in ways I can't really put the finger on.

Stunning website design BTW.

professore

This is technically feasible as it is proven technology IMHO. The problem is the objections and political point-scoring. A pathetic gas pipeline can cause social chaos in Mayo, what do you think 10 hoover dams will cause? Without a military escort instructed to shoot protesters on sight this will never fly in this stupid country of ours. Ironically the same protesters will drive away in their polluting SUV's and land rovers.

mike65

If you want to hear an interview with the men behind this then load the following

http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-todaywithpatkenny-Thursday.smil

into realplayer/Media Classic Player etc. FF to 34 mins.

Irish and Proud

serfboard wrote: »

Indeed - at a time when the country really was a basket case, we built Ardnacrusha - one of the largest civil engineering projects of its type in the world.

Of course, that was just after independence, when the politicians of that time had a vision for the country.

Isn't it amazing!

...an example of why we need a new mainstream party with new ideas (and vision of course!)!

Amtmann

It's been getting very warm cross-party political support:

Broad Support For Dams Plan
A proposal by a group of Irish entrepreneurs, engineers, academics, architects and legal and financial experts to achieve energy independence for Ireland within five years has attracted an extraordinary level of cross-party political support.
The plan, unveiled last week, aims to turn Ireland into a net exporter of energy after a decade by building a series of water reservoirs powered by wind energy.
The group called "Spirit of Ireland" are planning to invest €10bn in a project that may create tens of thousands of jobs, end our €3bn a year import bill for fossil fuels and radically reduce our carbon emissions. However, the objectives are not simply economic.
Speaking to the Sunday Independent, chairman Graham O'Donnell said "we hope the project will help build a renewal of national confidence''.
Initially the plan is to build two €800m dams on the west coast. The group are not looking for any government funding for the project. They plan to set up a national energy co-operative which will be open to public subscription and to investment by the National Treasury Management Agency and Irish pension-fund investors.
Mr O'Donnell said "we want to use Irish pension funds because the logic of doing this is that this resource remains in the hands of Irish people for future generations''.
At a recent weekend meeting with Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan, it is believed a visibly enthusiastic Lenihan called the proposal "the Ardnacrusha of our time".
One impressed source said of the meeting that "Lenihan was amazing. He immediately grasped the minutiae of the proposal and started asking us complex engineering questions''. It is believed that the Finance Minister immediately contacted the Taoiseach Brian Cowen about the plan.
The Spirit of Ireland group have also held meetings with Eamon O'Cuiv and also the Enterprise Minister, Mary Coughlan. Mr O'Donnell also claimed that the Communications and Natural Resources Minister, Eamon Ryan, confirmed his support for the project at a recent conference.
The group have secured cross-party support on the issue. O'Donnell told the Sunday Independent that Labour's Ruairi Quinn and former leader Dick Spring "were very anxious that the government would be informed as soon as possible. We felt there was a great deal of political generosity in that".
O'Donnell also claimed that Fine Gael has "been particularly supportive. We met Richard Bruton and other members of the Fine Gael front bench and Simon Coveney offered us immediate cross party support''.
The organisation has been pleased by the public response to advertisements for its spiritofireland.org website.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/broad-support-for-dams-plan-1734462.html

Calina

Lot of "it is believed" in that article.

mike65

I just watched the vid on the website, the florrid script and voice are woeful for such a project. The spirits of Dev and Maureen O'Hara were almost being invoked when the emphisis should be much more hard nosed - euros and cents.

Stark

The first thing I thought when I saw the website and video was "Dublin coastal development".

Amtmann

This discussion of the concept and proposals on the Pat Kenny show is well worth listening to: http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-070509-17m50s-twpk.mp3

Tech3

SparkyLarks wrote: »

We have a lot of talented Engineers in this country, with more than enough experience to carry out this project.

there are technical issues on this project than need to be fleshed out and possibly a cost comparison to nuclear.

/but the one thing we do have is the people capable of carrying it out.

Engineers dont know anything about grids or connecting RE's to them. Electricians would be better suited to most of this. Engineers are more involved in electronic devices such as ADC and DAC and implementing new ideas for these and amplifiers. This is a totally new area.

Its good to see some positive moves to create this but I can see other european countries well ahead of us when it come to actually producing an efficent renewable energy system.

Btw your being very optimistic. Techical issues? Probably where to start is the problem at this stage.

Nostradamus

Stark wrote: »

The first thing I thought when I saw the website and video was "Dublin coastal development".

or City of the Sacred Heart.

Carawaystick

tech2 wrote: »

Engineers dont know anything about grids or connecting RE's to them. Electricians would be better suited to most of this. Engineers are more involved in electronic devices such as ADC and DAC and implementing new ideas for these and amplifiers. This is a totally new area.

What??
Electronic engineers deal with data converters,
Electrical Engineers deal with Power grids. Who do you think designs the national grid here at the minute?
Who designs the power plants?
Electricians do the actual physical work

Calina, Steve, I think the idea is to completely dam a valley, preferable a glacial U shaped one completely and run pipes from there to a power generation plant close to the shore.
So you wouldn't have a reservoir on top of a mountain, but a huge dam blocking a valley mouth.
You would need a few valleys to flood to provide enough backup- but a U shaped valley should be a much smaller amount of land than was used to make Blessington Lake say


This was my understanding from listening to the guy on George Hook any way.

Calina

I read their technical documentation. While I sort of understand what they think they want to do I think more information is required before I can make a call on their economic figures which still strike me as optimistic.

Amtmann

OPINION: The Spirit of Ireland economic revival proposal shows how we can pick ourselves up and get over this crisis, writes RAY KINSELLA
IRELAND IS a chastened country. Successive economic forecasts provide confirmation of an implosion that is creating a vortex at the heart of our economy, and the wider society – including public services – which it underpins.

On the external front, the contraction in world trade, together with the pressure on US foreign investment arising from Barack Obama’s legislation, give additional impetus to this vortex which is swallowing up jobs, lives and domestic industry. It is not partisan, but only the hard reality, that the politics which have led us into this cul-de-sac are incapable of identifying a way forward.

But, there is a way forward. Unlikely as it seems, we are being offered an opportunity to re-imagine the economy, and in doing so, restore both our confidence and our international standing.

The announcement, by Graham O’Donnell, of a new national energy initiative is transformational. It is based on our capacity to jointly harness Ireland’s uniquely favourable wind-flow, and the potential for hydro-electric generation offered by ice-sculpted valleys running into the Atlantic.

Nothing like this has been conceived before. The logo “Spirit of Ireland” does less than justice to what is envisaged – which is reimagining how our economy and society could be. It is eminently clear from the critical mass of research, drawing on both Irish and international expertise, that this can be done, starting, more or less, now. The economics of the initiative are compelling.

Ireland’s economic future is inextricably bound up with the cost, and the security, of a stable and sustainable supply of energy in a form compliant with our responsibilities under the Kyoto protocol. The most recent (2008) National Competitiveness Report by Forfás highlights this reality:
“This report highlights that Ireland is highly dependent on imported fossil fuels, which present a range of challenges . . . With respect to electricity cost competitiveness, Ireland ranks as the second most expensive country in the EU15 . . . Irish businesses and consumers are exposed to volatile and increasing international prices for oil and gas . . . Our reliance on imported fossil fuels endangers our security of supply and raises the carbon intensity of the Irish economy . . . Significant change will be required if we are to meet our Kyoto targets. Achieving our security of supply and environmental objectives in a fashion that does not further weaken our energy cost competitiveness is an acute challenge.”*

Electricity costs for Irish industry have risen inexorably over the last decade – significantly faster than those of our trading competitors. They are now, according to the most recent data published by the Central Bank, the second highest in the EU15. The cost of electricity to households has followed a similar pattern – they, too, are the second highest in the EU. The cost of imported fuel is some €3 billion a year. The reality is that our capacity is inadequate, our costs excessive, and our whole generating infrastructure deficient and not aligned to our own indigenous energy capabilities.

The Spirit of Ireland Initiative provides a robust platform for:

** Transforming Ireland’s medium-term economic performance.

** Reducing uncertainty, which is at present imposing a severe economic penalty on business and Government, not least within a largely self-fixated banking model and foreign exchange markets that are, at best, indifferent.

** Restoring national morale and confidence in our ability, wholly against the odds, to innovate and, once again, provide a template for other countries to seek to emulate.

** Fiscal stabilisation, and greater certainty, will contribute to a restoration of Ireland’s international reputation and policy credibility.

** Leveraging Ireland’s “Golden Demographics”, which is one of its few embedded competitive advantages, compared with other EU and OECD countries. The initiative provides a compelling justification for pro-active investment in higher education, and for expanding, rather than closing down, skill-based third-level courses and research.

It is worth emphasising that Central Statistic Office data suggests that the present demographics provide a unique window of opportunity which will close within 20 years, leading to significant increases in older, as well as the overall, dependency ratios.

Furthermore, the funding would not represent a further burden on an exchequer running out of balance-sheet capacity. Instead it provides the means for progressively returning to fiscal stability and paying off the costs of fiscal and political profligacy.

The initiative is not aspirational. It is rooted in established engineering and project management protocols. The scale of the project is vast. Downstream applications are limited only by the inventiveness of the Irish people. The first wave employment opportunities are in the tens of thousands – the key constraint here being the commitment of the people of Ireland and, secondly, the willingness of the present political order to support it without any regard whatever to patronage, and still less to control.

One of the terrible aspects of the recession has been the unravelling of expertise. Engineers are emigrating, whole classes of postgraduate students are seeking shelter within the third-level sector or setting aside their hard-won knowledge and capabilities. There is still time to reverse this process. We have the people with the necessary skills and with every incentive to engage proactively with this initiative.

What is in prospect is a whole new wave of industries and specialised service providers, following on from the epic energy engineering “core” of the project itself. The scale of Spirit of Ireland is, prophetically, proportionate to that of the country’s existing and even more so, prospective, problems. And all of this potential, which is waiting to be harnessed, is configured around natural endowments of air, water and the human creativity of one of the youngest populations within the OECD.

It is, however, the proposed governance of the Spirit of Ireland initiative which truly sets it apart. The hubris that brought Ireland to its knees in the latter stages of the Celtic Tiger was characterised by societal fragmentation, driven by greed. We lost the run of ourselves and lost sight of our neighbour.

Spirit of Ireland is the complete antithesis of this mindset. It proposes that the wealth – in the form of energy, and all of the other activities that will be animated by this energy – be held in trusteeship for the people of Ireland. The proposed legal framework envisages that the gifts of our natural resources are the legacy of this, and future, generations, and must remain so. The fruits of this initiative will not be privatised, or parcelled out for private or institutional interests. This far-sighted vision throws into sharp relief the extent to which our natural resources have, in the past, been sold out or sold cheaply.

This is not a Government – or even a political – initiative. It is, quite simply, driven by the vision, tenacity and generosity of Graham O’Donnell, a successful entrepreneur working in this field, co-operating with a gifted academic team led by Prof Igor Shvets. The integrity and clear-sightedness of the initiative has brought on board a wide range of Irish and international experts. The sole motivation of this team has been the interests of the people of Ireland, and the willingness to engage inclusively with all of the people in order to make it happen.

This is the public good as a vital force in transforming, not just our energy supplies and our economic trajectory, but the whole manner in which Ireland, as a community, can function. That, surely, is transformational.
The response to my recent article (“We’ve screwed up, that’s the truth of it” – April 23rd) – which argued for a whole new political ethos – found an extraordinary resonance across all ages and shades of political opinion. This response is embodied in the Spirit of Ireland initiative which is not just the only option open to us in our current bleak circumstances; it is the very best possible option.

Spirit of Ireland puts our future firmly into the hands of the people of Ireland, and the onus for supporting and empowering this initiative on to the politicians of a political system which is passing.

*Source: National Competitiveness Report 2008 (Vol. I) 1.2.6. Prof Ray Kinsella is co-author (with Prof Vincent McBriety) of Ireland and the Knowledge Economy: the New Techno-Academic Paradigm (Oak Tree Press, 1998)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0511/1224246254647.html

If this proceeds then this forum should become a very busy place indeed! Pictures of roadbuilding will give way to photographs of dam and turbine construction.

murphaph

The only things stopping it are political inertia and huge NIMBYism from prople who will be directly affected. Does anyone know which valleys we're talking about? I presume down Kerry way would be ideal.

Calina

murphaph, actually, political inertia and nimbyism aren't the sole problems. There are some heretics who are not convinced by the PR spin and lack of genuine technical detail coming out of it either.

The onus is on Spirit of Ireland to actually provide some evidence that their figures stack up.

So far I have not seen them do it.

This op-ed piece is nothing more than PR.

murphaph

Granted. I would hower like to see a move in this direction (I'm aware the ESB is to invest heavily in renewables-anyne know if this 22bn (IIRC) plan has stalled now?) and I'm sure we are not harnessing anywhere near enough of our wind energy. Anyone have figures for Denmark and what percentage of their total electricity consumption is produced by wind?

I got an interesting PM there from someone who posted up some powerful counter arguments. I wonder why it isn't here in the main thread.

I still believe we could masivle improve our use of renewables and togeter with a nuclear plant could move away from imported energy.

mike65

Calina do you have a philosphical/ideological problem with the proposal?

Sponge Bob

The proposal is anything other than honest .

The basic plan is ( I understand) to flood Port and Maghera in Donegal and around Lettergesh in Galway and to build enormous windfarms around them .

To do so some people must be cleared off their land which means compulsory purchases .

They are trying to get this classified as strategic infrastructure and are probably trying to kick up a PR storm to overwhelm Minister O Cuiv and Tánaiste Coughlan in whose consituencies they propose that the government will carry out their evictions and strategic infrastructure designations for them.

They obviously expect more leadership than has hitherto been shown in Bellinaboy, I fear that they are being just a tad optimistic

The scale of the projects is in the public domain , it is based on a speech given by Prof Shvets of TCD 6 months ago.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1203/1228234992689.html

Our daily electricity demand can peak at 2.5 billion watts but typically runs at about 1.5 billion watts. We would need no more than four large wind farms, each about 10 kilometres square, to meet all our daily electricity demand, he told his audience in Trinity's McNeill Lecture Theatre.

A greater challenge was to adjust electricity production to meet fluctuations in daily demand, for example during the 4pm to 9pm peak when usage rises sharply. The system must also cope with periods when the wind was slack and electricity production declined, Prof Shvets said.

These peaks and troughs were easily met using pumped storage hydro-electricity production, such as already exists at the ESB's Turlough Hill hydro plant. Water is pumped from a lower reservoir to a higher one at night using off peak electricity. The water is then run back down a pipe through a turbine to produce extra electricity at times of peak demand.

Bath County, Virginia has the largest such plant in the world, capable of producing 2.1 billion watts of electricity, he said. Just one such plant, based on a single artificial lake 20km square and 20 metres deep and 250 metres above sea level, would be needed to produce two billion watts and supply our national electricity requirement, he said.

"It is not easy to find a 20km by 20km site but we found plenty if the lake was 750 metres by 750 metres".

So look for valleys near the sea and around 250m above sea level and 1km square and with low or no population and up to 10 km sq of land around them for turbines .

They only propose to develop 2 of these ....for now .

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote: »

To do so some people must be cleared off their land which means compulsory purchases .

This aspect I have no problem with as people are cleared off their land in the national interest all the time. And whatever about major interurban motorways, Electricity production is absolutely positively going to affect 99.99999% of the population. It is truly national interest stuff. A few thousand people being CPO'ed is pretty irrelevant if the end result (and I'm not saying this is the end result) is energy independence for 5 million people.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They are trying to get this classified as strategic infrastructure and are probably trying to kick up a PR storm to overwhelm Minister O Cuiv and Tánaiste Coughlan in whose consituencies they propose that the government will carry out their evictions and strategic infrastructure designations for them.

You say "for them". I take it you don't believe the SoI spin that they want these natural resources to be state owned by the people and absolutely not sold out to private companies? I would like to cling on to the belief that these guys are genuinely in it for the good of the nation and so these evictions wont be "for them" but rather "for us".

Does anyone have any knowledge about the rock types at these locations? If the rock is hard enough (granite etc.) will it prevent the saline waters leeching into the grondwater or would the entire area have to be contaminated with seawater for this to work?

Calina

mike65 wrote: »

Calina do you have a philosphical/ideological problem with the proposal?

mike65,

in principle I have no issues with improved infrastructure in terms of energy generation.

Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time looking at information available from Spirit of Ireland end of last week (very little) and the costs of building pumped storage stations elsewhere. To be blunt, I really don't think I trust their figures.

Realistically, if this is to be a goer, all the work that has apparently been done by various international unnamed experts in the past 6 months in terms of evaluating construction costs and viability needs to be made available to people outside the project for a look. I'm also somewhat distressed about the fluidity of some of the details regarding this project. Initially, we would be energy dependent in 10 years, now it's 5. The number of pumped storage stations seems to vary between 2 and 4. They have identified 50 possible three sided valleys which they haven't identified how they are going to line them to prevent salt water leaching into water tables. The number of people to be moved off their land was apparently announced as 0 from the point of view of valley flooding. I find that hard to believe too.

Technical data for the storage systems are somewhat thin on the ground, particularly if you want to compare it to other pumped storage systems in Europe of which there is a very big one in Wales, also in France. The prior existing Japanese one - as far as I can see - is probably not big enough to cater for the amount of storage required based on my understanding of energy usage in Ireland.

They claim to have evaluated wind records over the past 2 years. I don't live on the west coast so can't claim any exact knowledge on how it was. For something climate related however, I'd consider 2 years not to be a long enough record.

In other words, I have no objections to a project of this type but I expect it, like any major project of this nature to be evaluated properly on the basis of comprehensive available information.

Last time I checked, most of the support was emotional rather than rational. For a project that has a starting cost of ten billion euro, that is really not good enough.

Irish and Proud

murphaph wrote: »

The only things stopping it are political inertia and huge NIMBYism from prople who will be directly affected. Does anyone know which valleys we're talking about? I presume down Kerry way would be ideal.

NIMBYism is a luxury this country simply cannot afford!!! :mad:

I remember in 1997, looking at a large scale model of the M50 SEM in DLR County Hall and was amazed by it! For the first time, I felt that some foward and lateral thinking was built into the design when I examined the layout of the Sandyford/Ballinteer interchange complex. Any time I've travelled through that complex (since 2005), I was never held up, unless there was a traffic jam caused by something else further up the road (like the N11 outside Bray or the M50 Redcow).

Now, back to the main point, when I gave a very positive reaction to a member of staff, another woman said something like "do you really think so, well I certainly won't have that to say to the minister". I think she lived about 400m from the scheme. Well I'm now so sorry I didn't say "Your house??? :mad: Who the hell cares about your house? :mad:" I mean it, I would now say that unless there was a real and genuine concern! What makes an individual think that he/she is so important that a critical infrastructure project has to be amended to satisfy his/her needs! :mad:

Regards!

Sponge Bob

murphaph wrote: »

This aspect I have no problem with as people are cleared off their land in the national interest all the time. And whatever about major interurban motorways, Electricity production is absolutely positively going to affect 99.99999% of the population. It is truly national interest stuff. A few thousand people being CPO'ed is pretty irrelevant if the end result (and I'm not saying this is the end result) is energy independence for 5 million people.

Not even a few thousand for the first two projects . Mary Coughlan is probably sending very nice letters out to them this very week telling them where they will be rehoused in a NAMA owned southfork ranch clone near Mountcharles.:)

You say "for them". I take it you don't believe the SoI spin that they want these natural resources to be state owned by the people and absolutely not sold out to private companies? I would like to cling on to the belief that these guys are genuinely in it for the good of the nation and so these evictions wont be "for them" but rather "for us".

"For Them" yes . Only the state through a strategic infrastructure designation ...or the ESB under the 1927 act ....have the legal power to purchase and evict .

'They' propose to acquire a long lease post evictions but only once the state removes the bulk of the risk from the equation

'They' propose that the ESB shall be forced to extend the core grid to them and not have to pay for it themselves , Connemara and Donegal already have well organised anto pylon groups opposing 110kv lines .

These lobby groups will have a canary when they see what a Supergrid 400Kv line looks like and are much more numerous than the denizens of semi abandoned valleys in the Wesht . Both Donegal and Galway would be producing well over 400kv each of the National Total and this is what a twin 400kv = 800kv capacity pylon would look like

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Only the state through a strategic infrastructure designation ...or the ESB under the 1927 act ....have the legal power to purchase and evict .

I'm sure local authorities also have the power to CPO.

murphaph

I'll answer my own question about Denmark.

According to wiki, Denmark can produce 20% of it's electricity from wind and from the same page;

Denmark has relatively modest average wind speeds in the range of 4.9 to 5.6 metres per second measured at 10 m height. Onshore wind resources are highest in the Western part of the country, and on the Eastern islands with coastlines facing South or West. The country has very large offshore wind resources, and large areas of sea territory with a shallow water depth of 5 to 15 m, where siting is most feasible. These sites offer higher wind speeds, in the range of roughly 8.5 to 9 m/s at 50 m height.[7] There have been no major problems from wind variability, although there is a temporary problem resulting from the connection of a large bloc of wind power from offshore wind farms to a single point on a weak section of the transmission network.[8]

Denmark is connected by transmission line to other European countries and therefore it does not need to install additional peak-load plant to balance its wind power. Instead, it purchases additional power from its neighbours when necessary. With some strengthening of the grid, Denmark plans to increase wind's share even further.[9]

I believe we should at least be developing the wind aspect of the SoI plan. We can build an interconnector to France to initially purchase peak load from their nuclear producers and possibly to sell wind energy back to continental Europe. Is our wind better than Denmark's?

Also from wiki: The RoI is already 15th in the world in intalled wind generation capacity. we produce the same percentage of our electricity from wind as Germany! (7%). I'd say this has been achieved "without really trying" and if a concerted effort was made to tap the power of the wind in large scale projects (requiring CPO and moving people) we could push that figure way up. Remember, even if we don't achieve this fabled energy independence lark, pushing up wind energy to take full advantage can only be a good idea.

Carawaystick

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sure local authorities also have the power to CPO.

Yep, Dublin Corpo CPO'ed the Carlton CInema site - to build a shopping centre, which is definitely in the national interest.... Oh no wait..

acos

Hi all.

I am part of the Spirit group and I just wanted to respond to some of your points. thanks for your comments. we are starting a forum on www.spiritofireland.org today and we have a feedback section already there.

This project requires 2 pumped storage facilities of 1Gw each for irish needs. We believe we can deliver energy independance in five years. Prof Shvets original proposal set off the entire project which has developed since. If the Irish public wish to have an even bigger project, we can do so and develop an export market.

over 50 valleys have been identified as possible, none have been decided on, so I wouldnt/couldnt try and name specifics. the communities will decide themselves if they want to be part of it, thats why a lot of effort is being placed on publicising to general public now. The valleys in question are uninhabited. We have had thousands of people contacting us through the website, offering suppoort, help, advice and indeed requests to view potential areas in the west

We have completed a huge amount of engineering, financial and enviornmental analysis, with a team of over 50 professionals for 6 months. you can contact the spirit website with questions and we will post the answers publically as quickly as we can respond to them.

I suggest/ask that you consider the project as more and more information is released. We are all working voluntarily on this project, because we believe it is the right way forward for Ireland and Irelands economy. This is a genuine, 'doing it for ireland' project, but I accept that until you see the full business planning you wont fully believe that.

Sponge Bob

eh ??

what about your own wiki quote there Murphapp

" although there is a temporary problem resulting from the connection of a large bloc of wind power from offshore wind farms to a single point on a weak section of the transmission network"

Which in Ireland means many large Blocks to many weak points .

The grid cannot handle 220kv anywherenear the west coast save in Oranmore county Galway and in east Kerry the nearest 220kv to Donegal is on the Longford / Roscommon border

1 Gw is 2 of these lines in parallel all the way to Dublin from the west

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote: »

eh ??

what about your own wiki quote there Murphapp

" although there is a temporary problem resulting from the connection of a large bloc of wind power from offshore wind farms to a single point on a weak section of the transmission network"

Which in Ireland means many large Blocks to many weak points .

The grid cannot handle 220kv anywherenear the west coast save in Oranmore county Galway and in east Kerry the nearest 220kv to Donegal is on the Longford / Roscommon border

1 Gw is 2 of these lines in parallel all the way to Dublin from the west

Sorry SB, it just looks like any other pylon to me (I can see it carries multiple cables etc. and is a bit stronger looking but a pylon's a pylon). I am from Dublin-we have loads of pylons. I suggest the West of ireland has been badly treated in this regard and should demand its fair shair of the pylon pie.

murphaph

acos wrote: »

Hi all.

I am part of the Spirit group and I just wanted to respond to some of your points. thanks for your comments. we are starting a forum on www.spiritofireland.org today and we have a feedback section already there.

This project requires 2 pumped storage facilities of 1Gw each for irish needs. We believe we can deliver energy independance in five years. Prof Shvets original proposal set off the entire project which has developed since. If the Irish public wish to have an even bigger project, we can do so and develop an export market.

over 50 valleys have been identified as possible, none have been decided on, so I wouldnt/couldnt try and name specifics. the communities will decide themselves if they want to be part of it, thats why a lot of effort is being placed on publicising to general public now. The valleys in question are uninhabited. We have had thousands of people contacting us through the website, offering suppoort, help, advice and indeed requests to view potential areas in the west

We have completed a huge amount of engineering, financial and enviornmental analysis, with a team of over 50 professionals for 6 months. you can contact the spirit website with questions and we will post the answers publically as quickly as we can respond to them.

I suggest/ask that you consider the project as more and more information is released. We are all working voluntarily on this project, because we believe it is the right way forward for Ireland and Irelands economy. This is a genuine, 'doing it for ireland' project, but I accept that until you see the full business planning you wont fully believe that.

Thanks for coming on here. I suggest yo will have a wider audience and maintain a presence on boards rather than hoping everyone migrates to yor own site. Answering questions here may draw people in though.

Can you outline how the salt water would be prevented from reaching groundwater supplies?

If the numbers don't stack up for the pumped-storage aspect of the plan, will SoI forge ahead with the large scale windfarm aspect of the plan?

acos

there are over 6Gw of wind in current gate 3/planning process, so wind itself is not so much the problem. issue is what happens when it does not blow, blows too much and grid connections in remote locations where the grid is not now currently.

Pumped storage is the key element of this plan and the enabler that allows much greater usage of wind power.

We will maintain a presence on boards.ie of course, but there are over dozen boards keeping tabs on us at moment! our own forum, with pulished questions may be useful also. it also means that we get all questions. I have already been accused of ignoring questions over weekend, when we were working on preparing tech docs!