Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

patgill

zod

Spirit of Ireland have not made a submission to this competition, there are though quite a few similar submissions

D4665 Irish Renewable Energy Consortium

D4292 Ireland energy independence, within 5 years- Here's how.

D3891 Concrete Wind Turbine Towers

D3883 Wind is free energy

D3436 The North Wind Doth blow –

D3135 Ireland: The Middle East of Wind Energy

D2638 Let It Blow - National Investment Fund

D2518 Gloabal Research Hub and Incubation Institute into Green Energy and Climate change control

D2120 Energizing Ireland

D1621 Green Energy

D633 Ireland as the world leader in Wind Farms And Wind Turbine Manufacture.

D661 Spirit of Ireland plan to harness wind/wave power to lift water to create massive batteries

D509 Feasibility Report: Windfarm Development, Ireland

D364 Wind Power - The Biggest picture

D164 Powering Europe, Empowering Ireland

D3229 Combining Wind, Wave and Tidal Energy


Lets hope the two winners are from the above list.

Pat

ciaran75

hi pat,

what is the current realistic timeframe for this project?
I know you guys would like 5 years but we are in ireland so probably not a chance for that actually happening.

have the 2 final sites for the dams been picked yet?

best of luck to you all, you have huge public support.
Cheers,

patgill

ciaran75 wrote: »

hi pat,

Hi Ciaran

what is the current realistic timeframe for this project?
I know you guys would like 5 years but we are in ireland so probably not a chance for that actually happening.

We have expended a lot of time and effort behind the scenes to enable the realisation of this project in a timely fashion, most of the western counties have either updated their county development plans or are in the process of doing so and this is vital.

We have moved on now to the National and European picture and work is progressing well.

have the 2 final sites for the dams been picked yet?

We are concentrating on three sites at the moment and discussions with the landowners have started in earnest. Following this, the EIS studies will begin, this will take about a year, and the more comprehensive these are, the quicker the project will go through the planning process.

We intend also to do a Local Economic Impact Study to compliment the EIS.

And we intend to be producing electricity by 2016 at the latest.

best of luck to you all, you have huge public support.
Cheers.

Thank you, this is a project for everyone.

ciaran75

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the prompt reply, sounds like you guys are doing great work and actually getting stuff done rather than just talking about it.

will all the wind turbines (~2500) be built from new or is it the plan to take existing wind farms in the areas and divert the energy to the new reservoir

will the construction be in a phased basis, start with a single reservoir and several hundred turbines then increase over a matter of years.

Obviously money here is huge, over 10bn i believe so government assistance is vital. do you have good indications from the government that funding would be made available in the present financial climate if construction were to start in 2011 - 2012. are you looking at PPP's or money from europe also?

Thanks again,
Ciaran

Yixian

patgill wrote: »

ciaran75 wrote: »

And we intend to be producing electricity by 2016 at the latest.

I saw your presentation where you said, depending on how many dams are built, SoI could supply anything from say, 70% of Ireland's electricity requirements, to 100% plus surplus to sell to the UK.

If by 2016 you are hoping to have 3 dams running, how much will that provide?

Are the government looking at this as the new power source for Ireland or is it just going to expand the renewable energy source % of total energy currently?

Thanks,

patgill

ciaran75 wrote: »

Thanks for the prompt reply, sounds like you guys are doing great work and actually getting stuff done rather than just talking about it.

will all the wind turbines (~2500) be built from new or is it the plan to take existing wind farms in the areas and divert the energy to the new reservoir

We intend to build 1800 MW of wind in the correct locations to achieve + 40% load factors, we are also open to all other renewable operators should they wish partner with us, personally I would allow all Irish generation sources but that is not my decision.

will the construction be in a phased basis, start with a single reservoir and several hundred turbines then increase over a matter of years.

Yes.

Obviously money here is huge, over 10bn i believe so government assistance is vital. do you have good indications from the government that funding would be made available in the present financial climate if construction were to start in 2011 - 2012. are you looking at PPP's or money from europe also?

Thanks again,
Ciaran

We intend to finance this project on the international Bond market, private domestic investment in an SSIA type offering, investment from companies and perhaps debt from the EIB.

Yixian wrote: »

I saw your presentation where you said, depending on how many dams are built, SoI could supply anything from say, 70% of Ireland's electricity requirements, to 100% plus surplus to sell to the UK.

If by 2016 you are hoping to have 3 dams running, how much will that provide?

We only envisage building one HSR at a time, however this will build to a fleet of at least three.

We actually see large exports to the UK initially, Ireland has very genorous generation capacity at the moment and most of it is almost brand new, the UK has a large projected generation deficit post 2015.

Are the government looking at this as the new power source for Ireland or is it just going to expand the renewable energy source % of total energy currently?

Thanks,

I believe that they are beginning to agree that renewable should be dispatchable on demand and is the only real way to make renewables mainstream.

Pat

BluntGuy

patgill, whilst browsing I came across this interesting document;

http://www.sustainability.ie/pumpedstoragemyth.html

Now don't get me wrong this hasn't suddenly made me lose faith or not see merit in the Spirit of Ireland proposals, but it does raise some critical questions which need to be answered.

Is there anywhere I can access info on this?

Jim Martin

Interesting article in The Guardian today - looks like pumped water storage could be redundant!:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/26/gravel-batteries-renewable-energy-storage

ODriscoll

This spirit of Ireland reads like a great scheme for business men, especially business men driven by images of endless unlimited wealth.

Based upon the past care shown to the wider Irish society and the future for Irish children, I have no doubt that businessmen will grasp most of what is currently owned by all the Irish (at least in essence)

This is not for the benefit for the Irish nation.
Just another multi-national funded no lose scheme the Irish citizens will underwrite.


Question:

If we in Ireland really do have the perfect conditions for producing green energy (I would guess we have). If we in Ireland have the resources to be energy-self-sufficient and able to export energy large scale.

Then why on earth do we need a private business and yet more foreign money! to effectively take control, dictate energy supply, price and potentially hold us all hostage.

Why not call it Anglo Irish energy spirit damper of Ireland.


I suggest those who of you who think this international (that is what it is by definition of the funding) business is so enthusiastic through goodwill and national pride, working hard for the benefit of your Irish child or grandchildren, wake up!

Ireland the land is the most precious thing.

patgill

BluntGuy wrote: »

patgill, whilst browsing I came across this interesting document;

http://www.sustainability.ie/pumpedstoragemyth.html

Now don't get me wrong this hasn't suddenly made me lose faith or not see merit in the Spirit of Ireland proposals, but it does raise some critical questions which need to be answered.

Is there anywhere I can access info on this?

BluntGuy

The author of that report is Andy Wilson, a physicist by training, so you will find nothing wrong with his maths, you will however, on closer inspection, see that he assumes a reservoir depth of 10m, now the reason why he chose that depth I will leave to you to decide. A 10m deep reservoir is excellent for boating and fishing, maybe not so good for storing energy.

S of I design's require a reservoir 2 square km in area and 100m deep.

Jim Martin wrote: »

Interesting article in The Guardian today - looks like pumped water storage could be redundant!:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/apr/26/gravel-batteries-renewable-energy-storage

Jim,

I spoke to Jonathan Howe last year about his research, he sees his brainchild being used not for large scale storage but rather as a tool to enable areas with poor grid connectivity to provide stability of supply. It is also a purely theoretical model at the moment with not even a prototype built yet.

Pumped hydro has been in operation for over 120 years and is tried and tested.

ODriscoll wrote: »

This spirit of Ireland reads like a great scheme for business men, especially business men driven by images of endless unlimited wealth.

Based upon the past care shown to the wider Irish society and the future for Irish children, I have no doubt that businessmen will grasp most of what is currently owned by all the Irish (at least in essence)

This is not for the benefit for the Irish nation.
Just another multi-national funded no lose scheme the Irish citizens will underwrite.


Question:

If we in Ireland really do have the perfect conditions for producing green energy (I would guess we have). If we in Ireland have the resources to be energy-self-sufficient and able to export energy large scale.

Then why on earth do we need a private business and yet more foreign money! to effectively take control, dictate energy supply, price and potentially hold us all hostage.

Why not call it Anglo Irish energy spirit damper of Ireland.


I suggest those who of you who think this international (that is what it is by definition of the funding) business is so enthusiastic through goodwill and national pride, working hard for the benefit of your Irish child or grandchildren, wake up!

Ireland the land is the most precious thing.

The ownership structure proposed by S of I is a national Co Op, with share ownership open to all Irish citizens and companies, with any debt finance being raised in the international bond markets.

In a Co Op, an owner of one share has the same voting rights as the owner of 100 shares.

And yes we do have the resources to be energy exporters.

Calina

patgill wrote: »

BluntGuy

The author of that report is Andy Wilson, a physicist by training, so you will find nothing wrong with his maths, you will however, on closer inspection, see that he assumes a reservoir depth of 10m, now the reason why he chose that depth I will leave to you to decide. A 10m deep reservoir is excellent for boating and fishing, maybe not so good for storing energy.

S of I design's require a reservoir 2 square km in area and 100m deep.




Jim,

I spoke to Jonathan Howe last year about his research, he sees his brainchild being used not for large scale storage but rather as a tool to enable areas with poor grid connectivity to provide stability of supply. It is also a purely theoretical model at the moment with not even a prototype built yet.

Pumped hydro has been in operation for over 120 years and is tried and tested.



The ownership structure proposed by S of I is a national Co Op, with share ownership open to all Irish citizens and companies, with any debt finance being raised in the international bond markets.

In a Co Op, an owner of one share has the same voting rights as the owner of 100 shares.

And yes we do have the resources to be energy exporters.

How much debt is involved Pat? I seem to recall it could be up to 90% of the budget which - the last time I asked - was not actually known for certain because engineering decisions remained to be made.

luohaoran

I thought the boards would be hopping after SOI's appearance on Frontline.
I was very much encouraged, there seemed to be total agreement that SOI should happen. Even those on the nuclear side accepted that it was a good idea.

Some interesting political shifts I thought:
Igor mentioned that export to the UK is now a primary target and that existing energy producers should not have nothing to fear. (This was always the case but interesting to hear it brought to the fore , unprompted.)

Also it seemed that Eamon Ryan , the guy you'd have thought should be most aglow on SOI seemed quite chilled on the subject. The best he could muster was to accept that it was a good idea that should happen.
I would have like to have seen him agree more fervently with Eddie on the point about the "poxy grid", not being ready for 10 years. And also with that man from Clare on the Gating system being the big problem for wind power coming online. These are the two issues that he Can do something about.

Igor mentioned that the transmission lines were included in the costings, I assume though that he meant from Windfarm to HSR and not the cross country transmission lines.

But all in all , I got a very warm feeling of support for SOI.
The debate is over.
We are now in implementation.

This being Ireland, I can see us with a completed state of the art HSR with associated turbines on one side of the country and no grid in place to connect to Dublin , never mind the inter-connectors.

patgill

Calina wrote: »

How much debt is involved Pat? I seem to recall it could be up to 90% of the budget which - the last time I asked - was not actually known for certain because engineering decisions remained to be made.

Calina

I would very much hope that more than 10% of equity would be raised within Ireland, shares will not be priced exorbitantly, we now have people working almost full time on the financial aspects of the project. And without exception, every single member of the team is convinced of the necessity that ordinary people throughout Ireland, but especially within the communities of the west are fully involved, what is surprising is the extent to which the international financial experts concur with this sentiment.

I believe that 20% to 30% equity is achievable, with the debt being paid down over 15 or 20 years. Some debt investors might wish to exit earlier, that would not be a problem either based on the experience of similar projects.

dRNk SAnTA

If the SOI project will be funded by private foreign capital, and the energy produced will be exported to Britain, then what are the benefits to Ireland?

I'm asking this genuinely, where is the financial dividend for Ireland?

Edit: hadn't seen the post above, but still interested in more details/

gpjordanf1

patgill wrote: »

Calina

I would very much hope that more than 10% of equity would be raised within Ireland, shares will not be priced exorbitantly, we now have people working almost full time on the financial aspects of the project. And without exception, every single member of the team is convinced of the necessity that ordinary people throughout Ireland, but especially within the communities of the west are fully involved, what is surprising is the extent to which the international financial experts concur with this sentiment.

I believe that 20% to 30% equity is achievable, with the debt being paid down over 15 or 20 years. Some debt investors might wish to exit earlier, that would not be a problem either based on the experience of similar projects.

I believe you will get more Pat, with the way pensions & property have suffered in recent years. The only thing that has stood the test of time & recessions is energy prices. They never go down. And as such once you open this up to the public, you will be blown away by the response. Obviously if the deal is fair for the private investor.

patgill

luohaoran wrote: »

I thought the boards would be hopping after SOI's appearance on Frontline.
I was very much encouraged, there seemed to be total agreement that SOI should happen. Even those on the nuclear side accepted that it was a good idea.

I had a brief discussion with Professor Walton after the programme and he was of the opinion, which I agree with, that there is a place for all energy tech's in a world which demands enermous amounts of energy to function, he of course agreed that in many ways pumped hydro and Nuclear power are very compatible, in fact nukes depend on storage to enable cost effective generation.

Some interesting political shifts I thought:
Igor mentioned that export to the UK is now a primary target and that existing energy producers should not have nothing to fear. (This was always the case but interesting to hear it brought to the fore , unprompted.)

That is the obvious market in the short term, we must concentrate effort on changing the perception that this country cannot export energy.

Also it seemed that Eamon Ryan , the guy you'd have thought should be most aglow on SOI seemed quite chilled on the subject. The best he could muster was to accept that it was a good idea that should happen.
I would have like to have seen him agree more fervently with Eddie on the point about the "poxy grid", not being ready for 10 years. And also with that man from Clare on the Gating system being the big problem for wind power coming online. These are the two issues that he Can do something about.

I thought the Minister was very poorly briefed on the subjects likely to be raised on the programme, I had flagged well in advance that I would raise the issue of the politics of energy and yet the Minister seemed unprepared for the statement.

I happen to know for a fact that the Minister is very concerned about the grid and the very slow progress in the necessary improvements.

The man from Clare is Padraig Howard, also a member of S of I, he has done a huge amount of work on the practical implementation of wind energy, The gate system is indeed in trouble.

Igor mentioned that the transmission lines were included in the costings, I assume though that he meant from Windfarm to HSR and not the cross country transmission lines.

You are correct.

But all in all , I got a very warm feeling of support for SOI.
The debate is over.
We are now in implementation.

Well lets say that the real work of implementation has begun.

This being Ireland, I can see us with a completed state of the art HSR with associated turbines on one side of the country and no grid in place to connect to Dublin , never mind the inter-connectors.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

patgill

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

If the SOI project will be funded by private foreign capital, and the energy produced will be exported to Britain, then what are the benefits to Ireland?

I'm asking this genuinely, where is the financial dividend for Ireland?

Edit: hadn't seen the post above, but still interested in more details/

dRNk SAnTA,

At the outset of this project we could have simply brought this proposal to the government for funding, but it was thought that perhaps the government would have enough financial matters to deal with.

Ireland does not currently have any generation problems other than CO2 emissions. The UK has a yawning generation gap from around 2014 til at least 2020ish.

If the majority of the debt is paid down through export earnings, then Ireland can benefit from almost zero marginal costs of generation for quite some time.

patgill

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I believe you will get more Pat, with the way pensions & property have suffered in recent years. The only thing that has stood the test of time & recessions is energy prices. They never go down. And as such once you open this up to the public, you will be blown away by the response. Obviously if the deal is fair for the private investor.

I agree, and if there are any financial or pension people reading this and they would like to become involved, my email address is patgillenergyinfo@gmail.com or patgill@spiritofireland.org

KevR

Was actually quite surprised when the guy on The Frontline mentioned that a lot of the electricty would be exported to the UK.

I know the UK could be facing serious supply problems in the coming years and I would genuinely hate to see them having blackouts or anything like that. But the main reason I was so supportive of Spirit of Ireland was because, as soon as it's up and running, it would give us immense security in energy supply and price. Even though we don't have the same supply problems that the UK has, we are still at the mercy of oil, gas and coal - both price and actual supply. Yes gas and coal are cheap at the moment and oil isn't too bad either but we really have no gaurentees whatsoever with those prices. We will still be spending the best part of €6 Billion(!) on oil, gas and coal imports for electricity generation.

The government have just put a "carbon tax" on most fuels (cars, home heating...etc). I'm not confident that they won't put a "carbon tax" on electricity soon also seeing as how much of it comes from CO2 generating fossil fuels. It's just my opinion, but I don't believe that humans are having as much an effect on climate change as some would have us believe (so they can tax us to the high heavens to "save the planet"); no doubt that climate change is happening, but I don't think we're entirely responsible. I am far more concerned about oil and gas running out or becoming unaffordable than I am about climate change.

patgill wrote:

Ireland does not currently have any generation problems other than CO2 emissions. The UK has a yawning generation gap from around 2014 til at least 2020ish.

If the majority of the debt is paid down through export earnings, then Ireland can benefit from almost zero marginal costs of generation for quite some time.

That's well and good but what if fossil fuels increase substantially in cost in the mean time?

The UK are our neighbours and our biggest trading partners. It's not in our best interests for them to have serious power shortages. But the whole idea of Ireland having a secure supply of green energy really excited me and now it's looking like we aren't really going to have that.

gpjordanf1

patgill wrote: »

I agree, and if there are any financial or pension people reading this and they would like to become involved, my email address is patgillenergyinfo@gmail.com or patgill@spiritofireland.org

Just out of curiosity, what's the time frame for investment, going public, start dates, site positioning etc

Are there any upcming announcements ?

Thanks

patgill

KevR

Pat Kenny described our energy supply as the next most important national problem after NAMA and our current economic position.

He is correct.

We have now moved beyond peak oil and into peak oil demand, this means that the price of energy is now a constrant on economic activity, almost equal in ranking to the cost of labour.

Ireland moved from dependence on oil for electricity generation about 12 years ago, we now largely depend on gas for this purpose, as more countries make this switch, the price of gas will increase. I believe that we have about 7 years to begin to switch generation methods and stay ahead of the pack and in the economic driving seat.

Igor stated on Frontline that the UK would be a major market for S of I electricity, he did not state that the UK would be the destination of all of the output. Wind energy at present is a positive influence on containing the price of electricity, I realise that is not the perception, but it is a fact.

The gate process was mentioned in the Frontline programme, if you like, this could be described as the queue for connection to the Irish grid, there are many additional gas turbines in this queue, is this good for our energy security going forward, probably not.

We originally planned to build three HSR's all at one time, we have modified our plans in the light of the global financial crises and now plan to build them consecutively.

We still intend to supply this country with a lean, green energy supply and this debate will gather momentum from here on.

patgill

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what's the time frame for investment, going public, start dates, site positioning etc

Are there any upcming announcements ?

Thanks

The Frontline programme perhaps illustrated many of the factors involved in this project.

We expect to make an announcement on our first choice of site later in the year and everything follows this.

The more this subject is aired the easier it becomes.

ciaran75

hi pat,

well done monday night to you all.

assuming you get the 3.5bn for the first HSR via foreign and irish investment. you had previously said you plan to be producing electricity by 2016. As was pointed out on frontline the main grid connections will NOT be in place by then. what will happen then? will the entire project have to wait?

Also, for the individual windfarms that sign up to produce the electricity for SoI i assume that there would no longer be any need for them to get connected to the gird but just to you. is this correct?

is the plan to change irish households from gas (~60% now) to pure electricity over say a 10 year period which would be powered by SoI. gas heats a house very well but electric devices such as storage heaters etc. don't. how do we get people to change from gas/oil if the heating solutions are inferior.

Thanks,

ei.sdraob

patgill wrote: »

Welcome to the era of the renewable energy power station, carbon free, fuel free and price stable electricity to power Ireland through the 21st century.

Pat

Shouldn't you be having a victory speech after the thing is build

TimmyTarmac

Is it possible that the SOI Co op could be sold into foreign ownership in time?
I'm thinking of the many Dairy Co ops that were gobbled up by the likes of Glanbia and Kerry plc in the 80's and 90's.
I could be talking through my hat here and please tell me if I am but if SOI turns out to be a success (and I hope it will) and Gazprom or some giant comes calling with an offer shareholders could not refuse and a majority of us shareholders voted to sell, could that happen?

patgill

TimmyTarmac wrote: »

Is it possible that the SOI Co op could be sold into foreign ownership in time?
I'm thinking of the many Dairy Co ops that were gobbled up by the likes of Glanbia and Kerry plc in the 80's and 90's.
I could be talking through my hat here and please tell me if I am but if SOI turns out to be a success (and I hope it will) and Gazprom or some giant comes calling with an offer shareholders could not refuse and a majority of us shareholders voted to sell, could that happen?

Timmy

There are no guarantees in this life, however I should just explain that Glanbia and Kerry didn't gobble up their respective co ops, the shareholders chose to go the PLC route.

In a Co Op, the share price is not determined by the stock market, it is determined by the shareholders. This makes an Eircom type scenario very unlikely.

Under company law, in a Co op, whether you own one share or a thousand, you have the same voting rights, of course the more shares you own, the more dividend you earn, but the Co Op cannot be sold out from underneath you, the majority of shareholders must vote on any issue, not the majority of shares.

And Spirit of Ireland will be successful, why not join us.

patgill

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Shouldn't you be having a victory speech after the thing is build

ei.sdraob

This journey has had many victories, each one as important as the others, building the facility is the easy part.

That quotation was issued after our operating premise was validated by an influential international study.

We will keep the victory celebration on ice until the plant is built, wont be too long.

steve-o

Pat, it's an interesting idea, but it's filled with challenges and difficulties. I can't see any reference on your website to the potential problems faced by such a huge venture.

I'm thinking of big issues (some mentioned earlier in the thread): Public opposition to flooding valleys; opposition to large scale windfarms; risk of salt contaminating the surrounding area; availabilty of proven reliable salt resistant machinery; cost of constructing the connections to the grid; opposition to new lines of pylons across the entire country; risk of a long windless summer spell and having sufficient contingency to deal with it.

No doubt you have people working on these issues already, but to have real credibility you must be seen to openly identify the big risks and provide plans about how they can be addressed. A huge project like this can't succeed unless all these risks are openly identified and addressed before a euro is raised or a sod is turned.

Best of luck, I hope you can do it.

patgill

steve-o wrote: »

Pat, it's an interesting idea, but it's filled with challenges and difficulties. I can't see any reference on your website to the potential problems faced by such a huge venture.

I'm thinking of big issues (some mentioned earlier in the thread): Public opposition to flooding valleys; opposition to large scale windfarms; risk of salt contaminating the surrounding area; availabilty of proven reliable salt resistant machinery; cost of constructing the connections to the grid; opposition to new lines of pylons across the entire country; risk of a long windless summer spell and having sufficient contingency to deal with it.

There is an old saying, as ye sow, shall you reap, and that phrase is apt for many of the challenges you identify, the engineering challenges truly are easy.

Many of the subjects you mention will have to be solved even if S of I were to pack up today. Our grid is no longer fit for purpose and unless it is upgraded very soon, it will seriously impact our economy. We are now in a peak oil demand scenario, whereby the price of energy impacts economic activity. We are living in a society that spends an average of 140,000 kcals of energy each per day, the daily energy spend per capita in the Ireland of the 1950's was approx 40,000 kcals.
This difference in energy spend allows us to have a standard of living that includes trains, planes and automobiles, TV and computers, fridges and health care, sewers and running water and plentiful food, central heating and decent houses........

This energy must be generated and transmitted to our homes and factories. The days of cheap oil are gone for ever and over the next 5 years, as more countries turn to gas to power their countries, the price of gas will rise substantially.

No doubt you have people working on these issues already, but to have real credibility you must be seen to openly identify the big risks and provide plans about how they can be addressed. A huge project like this can't succeed unless all these risks are openly identified and addressed before a euro is raised or a sod is turned.

Best of luck, I hope you can do it

We will very soon bring discussion of these issues to the public domain and you are correct in your analysis and order to make an informed decision people must be given all the facts.

Thank you for your good wishes and I am available to answer questions on any of these matters.

Amtmann

patgill wrote: »

We will very soon bring discussion of these issues to the public domain and you are correct in your analysis and order to make an informed decision people must be given all the facts.

Pat, it seems you've been saying this for a long time now. What does "very soon" mean?