All this religious bashing...

Naz_st

red_ice wrote: »

... its those muppets like yourself who think that the sanctuary of the internet means that your alright to say harsh things about peoples beliefs...

Why shouldn't religious beliefs be subject to questions? Just because you believe something, or a group of people believe something, that shouldn't make it immune from other people questioning why you believe it.

And why shouldn't apparently ridiculous belief statements be subject to ridicule?

If somebody starting saying that they believe that Elvis is alive and well and coaching a netball team in New Zealand, would you not think to question and/or ridicule that belief?

If someone said to you that they believe that:

"The evil alien ruler Xenu killed millions of aliens from around the universe by kidnapping them, bringing them to earth in golden DC-8 “space-planes”, stacking them around volcanoes & blowing them up by dropping “h-bombs” into the volcanoes. And that the souls of these aliens were captured, brainwashed & released; they then attached themselves to our ancestors (and since they are immortal, they also attached to us during “past lives”) & cause many of our mental & physical ills to this day." (i.e. Scientology)

Would you not think that statement should elicit some questions and/or ridicule?

Finally, and more seriously, some beliefs that people hold are dangerous to others. A suicide bomber believing that he is going to meet 72 virgins in heaven if he blows up a cafe full of innocent men, women and children has a religious belief. Should you not question it? Should you simply accept that this is a personal religious belief and is therefore beyond question?

sink

red_ice wrote: »

So theres a time and a place for everything in that case? Dont be such a prat. your contradicting yourself in saying that a forum is a great place to slag people off for something that they hold dear to them, yet you live and let live. just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right. The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism. No its not those who actually do 'live and let live', its those muppets like yourself who think that the sanctuary of the internet means that your alright to say harsh things about peoples beliefs and in a sad attempt to belittle them.

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face. You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so. hah.




No its not. People like you are more dangerous to peoples mentality. If you really want to live and let live - stop posting here instead of making fun of peoples beliefs.. namely mine.

I find it ironic that one of the most vitriolic post I've seen on this atheism board in quiet a while is by a theist attacking atheists for being vitriolic. Pot -> Kettle -> Black :rolleyes:.

You just tarnished on of the most heterogeneous groups of people with one brush and I'm afraid it really only highlights your own ignorance of atheism and atheists in general. For instance I agree with Chocolate sauce on the issue of whether there is a god but I differ greatly from him when it comes to the overall impact of religion upon society.

lightening

Red ice my post was questioning the religious bashing.


You are sort of a good example why people do it actually, thanks for the insight, you are fairly aggressive and insulting if you don't mind me saying. Take a leaf out of my book. Don't go and visit the forums that you know are going to hurt your feelings or believes.

Have a good and peaceful weekend.

lostexpectation

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live. I have travelled a good bit and have always been tolerant to religions, I have visited temples, churches, pagodas, basilicas, synagogues, mosques and all sorts of places of worship. I have admired the art and the architecture, basked in the peacefulness of some of them and been fascinated by the weirdness of other ones. But I put it all down to superstition, it just doesn't do it for me, I don't think people who believe in a god are more stupid or clever than me, its just their bag. I believe in humans, evolved altruistic values and the love we have for each other.

I have admired in awe rainforrests, deserts, the bush, jungles, in the middle of the sea and in my very own country. (I reckon if their was a god the natural ones would make the best cathedrals!!)

I am an atheist, I had a civil marriage and plan to have a civil funeral, of course various members of my family are not happy, but I ask them to respect my believes and I respect theirs.

The thing is, I get on with my religious friends and they get on with me.

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

90% of our schools are still catholic.

Ickle Magoo

It's an interesting question. Atheists actively looking for a way to bash religion....hmmm.

If I had my way, I would have absolutely no involvement with religion at all; short of holiday visits to see the impressive architecture of St Paul's or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I would certainly have agreed with all your sentiments wholeheartedly until I moved to Ireland.

The fact of the matter is, try as I might, I can't actually get away from it since I moved here. Religion, or my atheism, has been repeatedly thrown in my face for many years now, often in a ridiculing, disdainful manner - ironically with regards to your post, this forum is often no different.

Between the horror that we would not get married in a church, being told that my children will be in limbo because we haven't had them Christened, having to put their names down at birth to get a place in one of the few ET schools available, the weird crucifixes we have been given as presents, the lovely lady who made the sign of the cross on my baby when she thought I wasn't looking....and the list goes on, and on, and on...

I'm just a bit sick of it all at this stage & as much as I try not to, I guess deep down I feel I've earned the right to treat organised religion in the same manner as those advocating it have/often treat me. Am I vociferously against all of the ways I must have religion impinged upon me "in the real world"? Yes. Would I treat someone who was giving me the auld "if only you could see the light" nonsense in the same manner as I would here? Yeah, I would.

That said, I do always try to imagine I'm speaking to a person as opposed to just a bunch of words on a screen.

lightening

Yeah, Ickle Magoo, I guess it really becomes prevalent when kids arrive, get them young and all that! Some choices to be made for me and the wife when we have kids....

red_ice

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Its not racism to question a groups of peoples beliefs. Its not racism to believe they are wrong. You should be thankful of this, otherwise you could be considered racist for thinking that every atheist here is wrong, and cowardly.

im not against people questioning religion, thats up to them to do. Im talking about what the topic is about - religious bashing.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Pretty much every theist feels they are more important and better than everyone else

I dont. I used to.. but that was for different reasons, money being one. Im not saying that 'religion made me see otherwise', but it helped, maturing did the rest. Dont get me wrong, i dont go to church or any such thing. I do believe in a greater power, and i do believe theres more to life than what we see through our own eyes. Im in science myself, and for some in my frame of mind to come to terms with that is a very hard thing to do.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont force your believes on people and yet you admit if someone says something negative about your religion you "wouldnt stand for it"?

Yea.. thats a pretty straight forward thing to say.. just like you deny my religion, i deny your views on it. Im not going to sit by and listen to you slate it, but im not going to do anything about it.. ill just ignore it.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont know about anyone else, but im usually quite balanced about how i approach religious discussions with people. If someone is doing something personally religious (saying a prayer, blessing themselves etc) then i generally wont comment, but if someone started asserting something that i believed was wrong i would acost them on it. Generally i don meet very many of religious fundies that you see on the internet, so this means the internet is the best place to debate with them, and atheist + agnostic and christianity forums are good places to hold these debates.

Does the fact that im singling out your reply say something to you? You seem very level headed about this subject - unlike the other people posting here. Hence me turning my views into a 2 way conversation. I myself wouldnt try and impress anything on anyone. Yet my beliefs get bashed on a daily basis on forums like this.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Looks like you dont want to live and let live, looks like you dont like your beliefs to be questioned and just want people to stop. What would you say if i told you if people like you are actually whats worst in the world. You obviously have no faith in what you believe, otherwise people questioning it wouldn't bother you so much, and in retaliation you fall back on insults and threats.

Looks like you read my argument wrong. You can question what ever you want. I wont be swayed by it tho. Did you ever see that episode of friends where pheobe and ross are talking about evolution? Just let it go that some people dont need to have an explination - it just is like that for them because thats how it is... The only thing that id like to see stop(which wont happen), is people making fun of someone for something they believe in.

I have complete faith in what i believe, i dont have to prove anything to you, you can either take it or leave it, ill lose no sleep over the matter. What your being so bullheaded about and is really starting to annoy me tbh, is the fact that i never once said you couldnt question my religion. I said that i wouldn't question it.

YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT I dont care.

stop basing your argument on something i didnt say. This topic of conversation is about religious bashing, not questioning someones beliefs.

Overheal

looks like you dont like your beliefs to be questioned and just want people to stop. What would you say if i told you if people like you are actually whats worst in the world. You obviously have no faith in what you believe, otherwise people questioning it wouldn't bother you so much, and in retaliation you fall back on insults and threats.

Possibly the most retarded thing I've read all week.

You have just been deducted One Internet.

Dades

red_ice, in every other facet of life if something is ridiculous it's open to anyone to comment on it. Why should religion be any different?

And let's be honest, there are a lot of things to do with a lot of religions that are utterly ridiculous.

Valmont

Dades, why did you change your name from "The Atheist"? I know it was ages ago, I just forgot to ask.

Overblood

Valmont wrote: »

Dades, why did you change your name from "The Atheist"? I know it was ages ago, I just forgot to ask.

....are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Overheal

That going around the rest of boards with a name The Atheist might set a prejudice against you?

Valmont

Overheal wrote: »

That going around the rest of boards with a name The Atheist might set a prejudice against you?

Perhaps, I just wanted to ask the man himself though.

I think that saying "I am an Atheist" was vastly different in 2006 than it is now. I'm of the opinion, that due to the hostility of some of the more vociferous posters, there is more of a negative connotation with saying one is an atheist than there would have been 3 or 4 years ago. The whole atheism religion gang has really grown, definitely a positive but a few unfortunate side effects.

Rev Hellfire

I would imagine he simply changed his name because he grew tired of it or thought of a preferable one.

Most people judge posters on the contents of their posts rather than by the self assigned nickname they have chosen.

Kipperhell

It is strange that religious people complaining about being bashed seem to ignore the daily and yearly bashing those without their chosen faith receive and how it is ingrained in the English language and social imagery.

Rev Hellfire

Kipperhell wrote: »

It is strange that religious people complaining about being bashed seem to ignore the daily and yearly bashing those without their chosen faith receive and how it is ingrained in the English language and social imagery.

/me gets out his violin...

Kipperhell

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

/me gets out his violin...

I am not the one complaining

yawnstretch

Haven't read entire thread but agree with OP. The abuse goes both ways but if we leave the bashing out its better for everyone.

vinchick

I bash often in the real world.

I have friends who are religious and we would have debates sometimes very heated but there are never any hard feelings and we dont do it on a night out when we are catching up.

I think the live and let live is a very bad idea. Thats how things can get out of control. By calling things out and drawing attention to flaws and negetive practices we maybe can avoid in the future some of the terrible things that have been done and are being done by religion today.

Their buildings may be nice but alot of their practices certainly arent.

Húrin

Overblood wrote: »

By the way, the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

For example: A creationist can say to me whatever they want about evolution, which I know to be fact. I won't get offended. I'd just dismiss it. I may even laugh.

But an atheists opinion can cause offence to the religious... why is that? Is it because thay harbor some underlying doubt?.... My opinion shouldn't cause offence if they know it's untrue!!!

If atheists don't truly believe in evolution, why do they waste so many words refuting creationism? Under these standards I am certainly a far more steadfast believer in evolution than most atheists on here.

On doubt: Why do religious people get criticised if they are dead certain about their beliefs, and also criticised if they have doubts, as in the above post? Overblood, a lot of people are not offended by opinions which reveal "the truth" that atheism apparently is, but are offended by the ignorance about religion that often forms them.

Húrin

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's an interesting question. Atheists actively looking for a way to bash religion....hmmm.

If I had my way, I would have absolutely no involvement with religion at all; short of holiday visits to see the impressive architecture of St Paul's or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I would certainly have agreed with all your sentiments wholeheartedly until I moved to Ireland.

The fact of the matter is, try as I might, I can't actually get away from it since I moved here. Religion, or my atheism, has been repeatedly thrown in my face for many years now, often in a ridiculing, disdainful manner - ironically with regards to your post, this forum is often no different.

You were surely aware that Ireland was a less secular culture than Britain before you moved here.

red_ice

Dades wrote: »

red_ice, in every other facet of life if something is ridiculous it's open to anyone to comment on it. Why should religion be any different?

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous. I dont think so. I hold something dear to me, and you think its alright for people to make fun of me for that? I dont. I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

The only other medium i can think of to use if music. I dont make fun of people for their taste in music. Emo/goth what ever. I wouldnt be interested in that stuff in any way, however, i wouldnt make fun of people for them enjoying it. If it makes them happy - good stuff, what ever your into.

Dades wrote: »

And let's be honest, there are a lot of things to do with a lot of religions that are utterly ridiculous.

Yep. Still doesn't sway me from it tho.

vinchick

red_ice wrote: »

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous. I dont think so. I hold something dear to me, and you think its alright for people to make fun of me for that? I dont. I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

The only other medium i can think of to use if music. I dont make fun of people for their taste in music. Emo/goth what ever. I wouldnt be interested in that stuff in any way, however, i wouldnt make fun of people for them enjoying it. If it makes them happy - good stuff, what ever your into.



Yep. Still doesn't sway me from it tho.

Just because you hold something dear doesnt mean it should be immune from criticism.

It is the root of alot of pain and suffering all over the world throughout history and today (unlike music).

Lots of people dont see you belief as a good thing and you should just take it.

I read lots of anti women stuff spouted by religion and I read it, take it and it enforces and strenthens my beliefs.

Religion isnt going to stay silent on my behalf so why should you expect the same curtesy?

Dades

Valmont wrote: »

Dades, why did you change your name from "The Atheist"? I know it was ages ago, I just forgot to ask.

Overheal wrote: »

That going around the rest of boards with a name The Atheist might set a prejudice against you?

Overheal isn't completely off there. When I joined there was no A&A forum and the Christianity forum was the only place for debate. I never really spent time in the other forums. As all the other delights of Boards opened up (including here!), I thought I'd go for a change - not come across as such a one-trick-pony, and changed to a nick I've been known as for years, online and in RL.

red_ice wrote: »

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous.

I wasn't specifically talking about your belief, but since you ask - yes - my opinion is that some of your beliefs are ridiculous. I can't help that.

However, oddly enough I was at mass yesterday, and managed to get away without a red-faced confrontation with the celebrants. That is because my feelings about religion, unless asked or provoked, reside in this forum.

red_ice wrote: »

I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!

red_ice wrote: »

If it makes them happy - good stuff, what ever your into.

It would make me happy not to have to baptise my child, but it wouldn't make me happy to not get her into the local primary school.

fitz0

Húrin wrote: »

If atheists don't truly believe in evolution, why do they waste so many words refuting creationism? Under these standards I am certainly a far more steadfast believer in evolution than most atheists on here.

If nobody showed creationism as a fairytale theres the danger that some eejits might actually believe it! With the amount of people in power that actually believe it there's no room for complacency. Even with evidence that the world isn't 6000 years old some tools are still trying to push their "God did it" tripe into schools and homes. If atheists just let them do this unopposed it would be a sad day for the human race.

Mark Hamill

red_ice wrote: »

im not against people questioning religion, thats up to them to do. Im talking about what the topic is about - religious bashing.

But for a lot of theists, start questioning their religion, even in the nicest and most simple way, will be considered bashing because most people dont like their foundations questioned. Very little of what goes on in this forum is actual bashing. While fun is poked in the "Religious Humour" and "Hazards of Beliefs" thread, nearly all of the rest of the thread are about serious issues, taken up by people with serious questions on religion or atheism. The fact that religion leaves so many questions to be asked (the real reason the religious feel bashed) is not our fault, and many atheist here, imo, would feel amiss for not asking the obvious ones.

red_ice wrote: »

I dont. I used to.. but that was for different reasons, money being one. Im not saying that 'religion made me see otherwise', but it helped, maturing did the rest. Dont get me wrong, i dont go to church or any such thing. I do believe in a greater power, and i do believe theres more to life than what we see through our own eyes. Im in science myself, and for some in my frame of mind to come to terms with that is a very hard thing to do.

Then you must be the exception that proves the rule. Almost all theists believe in some reward when they die; heaven, paradise, enlightenment, and almost all believe that regardless of their own particular flaws, they are still entitled to them. If they didn't, then the world would be full of incredibly depressed people, people convinced that when they die, they wouldn't get into heaven/ get enlightenment etc. And when you start talking to these people as an atheist, they may not be hostile to you (generally an extreme reaction), but a lot will pity you (they will wonder how you can go on thinking that after you die you no longer exist etc.) and you only pity what you see as being below you.

red_ice wrote: »

Mark Hamill wrote:

You dont force your beliefs on people and yet you admit if someone says something negative about your religion you "wouldnt stand for it"?

Yea.. thats a pretty straight forward thing to say.. just like you deny my religion, i deny your views on it. Im not going to sit by and listen to you slate it, but im not going to do anything about it.. ill just ignore it.

So you wouldn't stand for it, but you'd sit for it:pac:? Dont you see what an opportunity this forum is for you? You no longer have sit idle by, trying to block out the nay-sayers, you can systematically go through and refute each and every one of their arguments. There will be no shouting over someones opinion here, on no, everyone with an opinion can put it down and it be posted and read. Forums like these should be welcomed by you: if all the religious bashing atheist are so busy coming here to spout all their "hateful nonsense", then they wont have any time to accost you in the real world, every one wins .

red_ice wrote: »

Does the fact that im singling out your reply say something to you?

That you have no answer for anyone else .

red_ice wrote: »

You seem very level headed about this subject - unlike the other people posting here. Hence me turning my views into a 2 way conversation.

Can you point me the posts from the other posters here that offend you so much that you wont reply to them.

red_ice wrote: »

I myself wouldnt try and impress anything on anyone. Yet my beliefs get bashed on a daily basis on forums like this.

And next door in the Christian forum you can see atheism, evolution, homosexuality being "bashed" on a daily basis and yet you don't seem to take an issue with that...
Look this is a forum for atheism discussion, a very well regulated forum with regular, serious discussions (dont believe me, compare the average poster response here with the average After Hours response) and in this forum religion is questioned. A lot of the time, religion in general will be questioned, but due to the number of christians who also post in here, christianity will generally be touched on specifically. This forum is made for the questioning of other religions, if not what else do you expect people to do here?

red_ice wrote: »

Looks like you read my argument wrong. You can question what ever you want. I wont be swayed by it tho. Did you ever see that episode of friends where pheobe and ross are talking about evolution? Just let it go that some people dont need to have an explination - it just is like that for them because thats how it is... The only thing that id like to see stop(which wont happen), is people making fun of someone for something they believe in.

I have complete faith in what i believe, i dont have to prove anything to you, you can either take it or leave it, ill lose no sleep over the matter. What your being so bullheaded about and is really starting to annoy me tbh, is the fact that i never once said you couldnt question my religion. I said that i wouldn't question it.

But thats all thats happening here. People questioning your religion. Lots of people questioning your religion. Lots of people asking lots of questions about your religion. You are so afraid of questioning your own religion that anyone else questioning it offends you, hence you avoid these type of forums, and ignore people in the real world doing it. But it builds up. Its not that any of it is particularly rude or obnoxious (well, no more rude and obnoxious than what comes from the other side), its just that there is so much of it that bothers you. You see if you really didn't care about questioning your religion, if others questioning your religion didn't bother you, then no amount of questioning would feel like bashing to you.

red_ice wrote: »

YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT I dont care.
stop basing your argument on something i didnt say. This topic of conversation is about religious bashing, not questioning someones beliefs.

But to the religious person being questioned, particularly the ones with beliefs strong enough to post on a forum about it, questioning a religion and bashing a religion will be seen to be the same thing.

aidan24326

red_ice wrote: »

Im not going to sit by and listen to you slate it, but im not going to do anything about it.. ill just ignore it.

Contradicting yourself a bit there.

Yet my beliefs get bashed on a daily basis on forums like this.

You are here of your own choosing. If you don't like it...

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous. I dont think so. I hold something dear to me, and you think its alright for people to make fun of me for that? I dont. I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

I didn't see anyone making fun of you. Yes some people, myself included, consider at least some of what you believe in to be nonsense, and with good reason. But you must accept that your beliefs are open to scrutiny, to debate, and yes even to ridicule in some cases. Anybody who makes outlandish claims they can't back up is always going to be open to ridicule, and that is exactly what religion does, makes grandiose claims about very non-trivial matters and then offers nothing in the way of credible evidence to support any of these claims. Like I said though, if you don't like having your religious beliefs challenged (or bashed, call it what you like) then don't venture into an atheism and agnosticism forum.

Botany Bay

This is pathetic.


Let me get this straight, you enter a forum that is called atheism and agnosticism. You then choose to be offended by what you deem/define as religious bashing. When others engage with you, the response is one of almost petulant childlike intransigence where only one poster is deemed worthy of a response. Your other, later replies consist of you not liking your precious beliefs being questioned/criticised/ridiculed.

This is like a forum version of Liveline or the an equivalent online reflection of the apoplectic and deeply deluded sanctimony of the Late Late audience after listening to Richard Dawkins. In each instance an individual or individuals choose to be offended, indeed they go out of their way to be offended.

So considering the infantile nature of the above poster and his dislike of any negative criticism, I won't temper this one bit, I'll be blunt.

I regard religious belief, your religious belief, indeed the whole theistic/monotheistic/polytheistic headbanging, genuflecting, self-loathing nonsense as the same. A deluded, totally devoid from reality, nonsensical, mentally lazy, emotionally weak, intellectually dishonest, anti-human load of tripe.

Your precious beliefs don't deserve any respect. Religious beliefs have done nothing to earn such an accolade. While their presence in previous millenia and centuries can be forgiven for the collective primitiveness and ignorance. The continued presence of religious belief in 21st century Western Society is nothing short of embarrassing and pathetic. You can't accept criticism or ridicule, red_ice??? Tough!!!

The irrationality and pure lunacy of religious belief demands castigation and ridicule.

Genghiz Cohen

^ Post of the day methinks

MrPudding

Botany Bay wrote: »

This is pathetic.


Let me get this straight, you enter a forum that is called atheism and agnosticism. You then choose to be offended by what you deem/define as religious bashing. When others engage with you, the response is one of almost petulant childlike intransigence where only one poster is deemed worthy of a response. Your other, later replies consist of you not liking your precious beliefs being questioned/criticised/ridiculed.

This is like a forum version of Liveline or the an equivalent online reflection of the apoplectic and deeply deluded sanctimony of the Late Late audience after listening to Richard Dawkins. In each instance an individual or individuals choose to be offended, indeed they go out of their way to be offended.

So considering the infantile nature of the above poster and his dislike of any negative criticism, I won't temper this one bit, I'll be blunt.

I regard religious belief, your religious belief, indeed the whole theistic/monotheistic/polytheistic headbanging, genuflecting, self-loathing nonsense as the same. A deluded, totally devoid from reality, nonsensical, mentally lazy, emotionally weak, intellectually dishonest, anti-human load of tripe.

Your precious beliefs don't deserve any respect. Religious beliefs have done nothing to earn such an accolade. While their presence in previous millenia and centuries can be forgiven for the collective primitiveness and ignorance. The continued presence of religious belief in 21st century Western Society is nothing short of embarrassing and pathetic. You can't accept criticism or ridicule, red_ice??? Tough!!!

The irrationality and pure lunacy of religious belief demands castigation and ridicule.

Pat Condell FTW...

http://blip.tv/file/311459

MrP