All this religious bashing...

lightening · 24-04-2009 1:38pm #1

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live. I have travelled a good bit and have always been tolerant to religions, I have visited temples, churches, pagodas, basilicas, synagogues, mosques and all sorts of places of worship. I have admired the art and the architecture, basked in the peacefulness of some of them and been fascinated by the weirdness of other ones. But I put it all down to superstition, it just doesn't do it for me, I don't think people who believe in a god are more stupid or clever than me, its just their bag. I believe in humans, evolved altruistic values and the love we have for each other.

I have admired in awe rainforrests, deserts, the bush, jungles, in the middle of the sea and in my very own country. (I reckon if their was a god the natural ones would make the best cathedrals!!)

I am an atheist, I had a civil marriage and plan to have a civil funeral, of course various members of my family are not happy, but I ask them to respect my believes and I respect theirs.

The thing is, I get on with my religious friends and they get on with me.

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

Owen · 24-04-2009 1:43pm

If someone tells me they believe in God I'm ... 'meh'. If someone is fanatical and believes Noah's Ark, Genesis, Earth being 6000 years old, then yes, I will rip the piss out of them. It's right up there with the Earth being flat, Photographs stealing your Soul, and Banshees for me.

Doctor DooM · 24-04-2009 1:47pm

The only time I get in any way volatile about religions is when a religion tries to make some imposition on my or others way of lives. Other than that I don't really care. In fact someone can nash on in my ear about it and I won't bat an eyelid. Life is too short to get worked up on other peoples little things.

To be fair though, here's a little different; Surely the whole point of an atheist forum is to challenge religion? What else is going to be discussed?

"So, still not believe in a given example of an all powerful deity?"

"Yup. You?"

"Yup. So... Catch the match?"

Rev Hellfire · 24-04-2009 1:49pm

lightening wrote: »

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

I'd imagine few people carry on in real life in the manner they do online.
The fact we all use pseudonyms shows how we like to keep our digital persona detached from our real one.

kiffer · 24-04-2009 2:04pm

John Gabriel's greater internet f_ckwad theory...
Normal person + anonymity + audience = total f_ckwad

Even without anonymity people on line then to be much more ... vocal than in person.

Dades · 24-04-2009 2:14pm

lightening wrote: »

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing?

The internet facilitates it.

lightening wrote: »

Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

Almost certainly not in most cases, I would imagine.

lightning, too much "bashing" does go one here - and is likely to be addressed shortly - but just because you are apathetic on the subject doesn't mean other people aren't entitled to a bit of secular flag waving in their 'own' forum.

Overheal · 24-04-2009 2:19pm

I disagree with some theories more than others (Creationism in particular) but I don't go around pointing fingers at Evangelicals for believing in it. To their credit science has been uncovering proof that some biblical events actually happened: Geologists have recently begun to theorize that Noah's Flood was actually the creation of the Mediterranean Sea, after the Straight of Gibraltar (which used to act as a natural dam) gave away.

lightening · 24-04-2009 2:24pm

SDooM wrote: »

What else is going to be discussed?

Evolution, altruism, Galapagos islands, Darwin, The book "The Neandartals"... lots of stuff!

Fair and good on the other points made... Didn't mean to start an argument by the way! And I am horrified at what is said in some of the other religious forum... To horrified to get involved. Yeah, fair enough Dades, the Christianity forum seems obsessed with atheists for some reason!! Seems it works both ways.

Hivemind187 · 24-04-2009 2:24pm

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious?

Considering the bu,ll**** propaganda thats been coming through my letterbox the last two days from the Baptists I'd call it a big yes!

kiffer · 24-04-2009 2:26pm

I think a number of issues polarize the divide so strongly that we all get stuck on them...

Like gay rights, creationism, that whole hell thing.

I know that I personaly take a much harder line when posting than I do in face to face conversations ... Maybe because in person I can add qualifying statements more easily / without feeling that it gives the other side easy ammunition... Maybe 'cause it's harder to be annoying to someones face.

Maybe it's because people I talk to in person about these things are less likely to tell me I'm going to "burn in hell with sharp things hammered into my soul and that this is good and proper as it's God's will" ...
Not that anyone has said that exactly but ... meh.

Doctor DooM · 24-04-2009 2:29pm

lightening wrote: »

Evolution, altruism, Galapagos islands, Darwin, The book "The Neandartals"... lots of stuff!

Fair and good on the other points made... Didn't mean to start an argument by the way! And I am horrified at what is said in some of the other religious forum... To horrified to get involved. Yeah, fair enough Dades, the Christianity forum seems obsessed with atheists for some reason!! Seems it works both ways.

Ah yes, but the only reason evolution et al. is connected to atheism at all is because religious parties decry it. It has nothing to do with being an atheist other than that, surely? What does biology have to do with atheism?

Remember it's certain religious groups that like the use the term "evolutionist", and connect evolution to the birth of the universe etc- it shouldn't be but is.

That is a perfect example of something which should be defended, and most right thinking religious people would agree with that too I think.

red_ice · 24-04-2009 2:30pm

ned78 wrote: »

If someone tells me they believe in God I'm ... 'meh'. If someone is fanatical and believes Noah's Ark, Genesis, Earth being 6000 years old, then yes, I will rip the piss out of them. It's right up there with the Earth being flat, Photographs stealing your Soul, and Banshees for me.

i believe an interest in aviation is a stupid interest. I think its right up there with stamp collecting and playing strategy based board games like that of the shop on liffy street.. games workshop. but i keep that to myself.

robindch · 24-04-2009 2:33pm

lightening wrote: »

Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

I couldn't imagine any reasonable person getting upset with a religious person who keeps their religious beliefs to themselves.

Having said that, most religious people certainly don't keep their religion to themselves and instead see it as their solemn duty to spread it, and that certainly does get up the noses of many people, religious and otherwise.

As happened to me yesterday. While checking out a playschool for my two year old, the headmistress finished up a long and glowing account of how good the school was with an almost incidental bit about it having a very strong "christian ethos"(*), and that she made sure that all the little bunnies prayed together at the beginning of every day. Bahai included.

Huh? This is a school, not a church. Why on earth does a women I've never met before automatically assume the right to indoctrinate my child?

Anyhow, if religious people kept their religion to themselves, peace would ensure. And the forum would probably die too. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose

(*) insert usual comment here.

Dades · 24-04-2009 2:34pm

lightening wrote: »

And I am horrified at what is said in some of the other religious forum... To horrified to get involved.

I don't venture over the wire much myself for the same reason.

ChocolateSauce · 24-04-2009 2:37pm

Religious bashing is something that has a certain time and place, and an atheist internet forum is one of the best places for it. I'm an anti-theist, but I certainly don't go around in real life telling people their religion is stupid and so on, precisely because I believe in live and let live.

Is it needed? Absolutely. If there isn't a forum, somewhere, where religion can be open to fair criticism (and ridicule and hatred is fair, IMO), it will proceed unchecked, and religion unchecked is more dangerous than anything else I can possibly imagine.

kiffer · 24-04-2009 2:41pm

Overheal wrote: »

I disagree with some theories more than others (Creationism in particular) but I don't go around pointing fingers at Evangelicals for believing in it. To their credit science has been uncovering proof that some biblical events actually happened: Geologists have recently begun to theorize that Noah's Flood was actually the creation of the Mediterranean Sea, after the Straight of Gibraltar (which used to act as a natural dam) gave away.

... Um not exactly. Last time I checked the most recent emptying and reflooding of the Med. was 6 million years ago... But sea levels were lower during the ice age so people could have been flooded out of it in coastal areas... But the levels didn't rise over night...

Overblood · 24-04-2009 2:41pm

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live. I have travelled a good bit and have always been tolerant to religions, I have visited temples, churches, pagodas, basilicas, synagogues, mosques and all sorts of places of worship. I have admired the art and the architecture, basked in the peacefulness of some of them and been fascinated by the weirdness of other ones.

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

A lot of these "attacks" are merely questions. Ask a person about his faith, and if the questions blatantly point to obvious flaws, you are undermining what they have lived their whole life by and will reject it and take offence to it.

I liken it to keeping your eyes closed when you wake in the morning to cling onto the last scene of a dream. Any external influence, one peek at your bedroom, or noise like a car horn or a dog's bark will shatter the dream, and you will no longer be on that beautiful desert island with Jessica Alba.:pac: In this case, the car horn and dogs barking are our criticisms and "bashing".

Everybody has a right to criticize with regards to music, movies, art in general, soccer teams, whatever. I can say that Tom Cruise is the "WORST ACTOR EVAR" and nobody will bat an eye. But when it comes to criticizing religion, offence is taken.

There's nothing wrong with the architecture. Some of it is truly awe inspiring, especially the larger gothic cathedrals with their super-awesome gargoyles. As far as I know, I don't think anyone here "bashes" religious architecture.

But religious beliefs themselves are a huge piñata just asking to be poked, especially in this day and age.

And yes I do carry on like this in the real world. I don't actively seek out religious discussion, but when it does happen, I have no problems in giving my opinion. And obviously some people are shocked, as if I have just told them that their child is the ugliest creature I've ever seen.

Handsome Bob · 24-04-2009 2:46pm

robindch wrote: »

Having said that, most religious people certainly don't keep their religion to themselves and instead see it as their solemn duty to spread it.

:rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that. I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments OP.

Rev Hellfire · 24-04-2009 2:53pm

Its probably worth noting that anyone who posts in the Religion & Spirituality category most likely has either has a chip on their shoulder or is heavily invested in the whole thing. Those that aren't are just looking for a good argument and a chance to stroke the flame. So you'd naturally expect the views here to be extreme.

karen3212 · 24-04-2009 3:01pm

If you think a belief in XYZ is stupid, wrong or dangerous, then I think it should be said, and discuss the issue often if they wish.

People should try and separate the person from the belief, and hopefully come to understand how another came to their opinion/belief. I have plenty of respect for people even though their beliefs might seem completely silly to me.

I don't believe in shutting people up, I would rather try and understand where their beliefs come from.

Overblood · 24-04-2009 3:21pm

lightening wrote: »

Evolution, altruism, Galapagos islands, Darwin, The book "The Neandartals"... lots of stuff!

There's a biology forum for that... If we stopped criticizing religion here, there's be nothing to talk about.

By the way, the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

For example: A creationist can say to me whatever they want about evolution, which I know to be fact. I won't get offended. I'd just dismiss it. I may even laugh.

But an atheists opinion can cause offence to the religious... why is that? Is it because thay harbor some underlying doubt?.... My opinion shouldn't cause offence if they know it's untrue!!!

Fighting Irish · 24-04-2009 3:34pm

Its not about someone being religious, its about religion affecting people that have no interest in it.

Goduznt Xzst · 24-04-2009 3:37pm

It depends on the individual tbh. Some people, whether online or not, do not like confrontation. Others like to quickly acquiesce if they see the written substitutes for prosodic intonation indicating the argument is becoming heated.

Some feel that Atheists have the burden of showing that we are equally as civil and moral as the religious would claim they are, and in such would restrain themselves for fear of proving true a stereotype of Atheists created for us by Theists.

Maybe it depends on which kind of Atheist you are, maybe some are more Humanist and maybe some are more Secularist. Who knows.

Personally, I like confrontation and argument. Even if I agree with someone on a point I will tend to always play devils advocate to extract a sense of why a person holds an opinion.

Plus this is the A&A forum. The Atheists here believe the Gods of organized religions don't exist. Whether or not some of the posters here are more taciturn than others it doesn't change the fact that we all think religious people are deluded or are very arrogantly saying they know truths about the universe that they can't possibly know.

red_ice · 24-04-2009 4:01pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Religious bashing is something that has a certain time and place, and an atheist internet forum is one of the best places for it. I'm an anti-theist, but I certainly don't go around in real life telling people their religion is stupid and so on, precisely because I believe in live and let live.

So theres a time and a place for everything in that case? Dont be such a prat. your contradicting yourself in saying that a forum is a great place to slag people off for something that they hold dear to them, yet you live and let live. just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right. The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism. No its not those who actually do 'live and let live', its those muppets like yourself who think that the sanctuary of the internet means that your alright to say harsh things about peoples beliefs and in a sad attempt to belittle them.

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face. You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so. hah.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Is it needed? Absolutely. If there isn't a forum, somewhere, where religion can be open to fair criticism (and ridicule and hatred is fair, IMO), it will proceed unchecked, and religion unchecked is more dangerous than anything else I can possibly imagine.

No its not. People like you are more dangerous to peoples mentality. If you really want to live and let live - stop posting here instead of making fun of peoples beliefs.. namely mine.

aidan24326 · 24-04-2009 4:05pm

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live... ...I am an atheist, I had a civil marriage and plan to have a civil funeral, of course various members of my family are not happy, but I ask them to respect my believes and I respect theirs

Members of your family are not happy? Well there isn't very much live and let live going on there? Were a member of your family, a religious believer, to (naturally enough) get married in a church, would you openly take issue with this, perhaps deride then for it? Of course you wouldn't, but you'll note that you weren't afforded the same courtesy. So who exactly is living and letting live here?

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

I don't actively seek out confrontation with religious people in everyday life, as much as possible I do indeed live and let live. But where the subject crops up I wouldn't shy away from expressing my opinions, and where my views or my non-belief should offend a religious person I would consider that more their problem than mine. If someone steadfastly believes in something I fail to see why they should take offence at someone holding an opposing view, assuming of course that that someone isn't being deliberately offensive just for the sake of it.

Overblood wrote: »

By the way, the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

For example: A creationist can say to me whatever they want about evolution, which I know to be fact. I won't get offended. I'd just dismiss it. I may even laugh.

But an atheists opinion can cause offence to the religious... why is that? Is it because thay harbor some underlying doubt?.... My opinion shouldn't cause offence if they know it's untrue!!!

That's something I've always wondered about, and I've always felt that it shows a deep-rooted insecurity within the minds of many religious people, insecurity with the whole foundation of what they claim to believe in. I mean over on the islam forum you're not allowed say anything even remotely against the grain without being banned, so there's little point in even trying to engage them in debate. And yet these are the same people who outwardly profess an unshakeable certainty that they are right. Strange that.

I was at a christening recently and it was laughable to see the contrivances and mental gymnastics the priest was having to go through while trying to explain original sin and all of that, he really was talking in riddles and you could tell that deep down maybe he wasn't too sure about the whole thing himself.

red_ice · 24-04-2009 4:07pm

red_ice wrote: »

The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism.

Im not counting hick jesus freaks and the likes. Im talking about run of the mill average people here. Just to clarify.

aidan24326 · 24-04-2009 4:09pm

red_ice wrote: »

just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right.

Challenging someone's religious beliefs isn't racism. It isn't any 'ism', it's merely holding an opposing view and seeing if the other side can successfully defend their point of view (that's called debate btw) and strangely enough most of the religious believers who venture in here fail spectacularly.

Dades · 24-04-2009 4:18pm

red_ice wrote: »

...

You get this one warning. Any more abuse and you're gone.

Overblood · 24-04-2009 4:22pm

red_ice wrote: »

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face. You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so. hah.

I don't know if that was directed at just Chocolate Sauce or all of us. As I said, I have no problem discussing religious beliefs with people in the real world, and quite enjoy it. I speak alot about it, with believers and non-believers alike.

If a catholic reads the following, he/she won't be very happy, but I managed to instill doubt in a "catholic's" mind about his beliefs. I didn't state any facts or force my views upon him. I simply asked questions that left gaping, obvious plotholes in the integrity of his religion. A lot of the questions were ones that never occured to him, as the religious culture is to not question ones beliefs. I didn't convert him, but after our discussion he was left a bit doubful. Positively doubtful I might add. He was agreeing with me. He was open-minded. Is that good/bad? Dunno. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't need to hide behind my computer screen to challenge religion.

lightening · 24-04-2009 4:30pm

aidan24326 wrote: »

Members of your family are not happy? Well there isn't very much live and let live going on there?

I explained things to them, they saw what I was about, understood that I was being true to myself and thoroughly enjoyed the day.

Mark Hamill · 24-04-2009 4:46pm

red_ice wrote: »

just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right.

Its not racism to question a groups of peoples beliefs. Its not racism to believe they are wrong. You should be thankful of this, otherwise you could be considered racist for thinking that every atheist here is wrong, and cowardly.

red_ice wrote: »

The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism.

Pretty much every theist feels they are more important and better than everyone else, how else do you explain the arrogance in assuming that an all powerful deity could give a crap about some bald apes on a planet in the middle of nowhere?

red_ice wrote: »

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face.

You dont force your believes on people and yet you admit if someone says something negative about your religion you "wouldnt stand for it"?

red_ice wrote: »

You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so.

I dont know about anyone else, but im usually quite balanced about how i approach religious discussions with people. If someone is doing something personally religious (saying a prayer, blessing themselves etc) then i generally wont comment, but if someone started asserting something that i believed was wrong i would acost them on it. Generally i don meet very many of religious fundies that you see on the internet, so this means the internet is the best place to debate with them, and atheist + agnostic and christianity forums are good places to hold these debates.

red_ice wrote: »

hah.

Mature :rolleyes:

red_ice wrote: »

No its not. People like you are more dangerous to peoples mentality. If you really want to live and let live - stop posting here instead of making fun of peoples beliefs.. namely mine.

Looks like you dont want to live and let live, looks like you dont like your beliefs to be questioned and just want people to stop. What would you say if i told you if people like you are actually whats worst in the world. You obviously have no faith in what you believe, otherwise people questioning it wouldn't bother you so much, and in retaliation you fall back on insults and threats.

Naz_st · 24-04-2009 5:19pm

red_ice wrote: »

... its those muppets like yourself who think that the sanctuary of the internet means that your alright to say harsh things about peoples beliefs...

Why shouldn't religious beliefs be subject to questions? Just because you believe something, or a group of people believe something, that shouldn't make it immune from other people questioning why you believe it.

And why shouldn't apparently ridiculous belief statements be subject to ridicule?

If somebody starting saying that they believe that Elvis is alive and well and coaching a netball team in New Zealand, would you not think to question and/or ridicule that belief?

If someone said to you that they believe that:

"The evil alien ruler Xenu killed millions of aliens from around the universe by kidnapping them, bringing them to earth in golden DC-8 “space-planes”, stacking them around volcanoes & blowing them up by dropping “h-bombs” into the volcanoes. And that the souls of these aliens were captured, brainwashed & released; they then attached themselves to our ancestors (and since they are immortal, they also attached to us during “past lives”) & cause many of our mental & physical ills to this day." (i.e. Scientology)

Would you not think that statement should elicit some questions and/or ridicule?

Finally, and more seriously, some beliefs that people hold are dangerous to others. A suicide bomber believing that he is going to meet 72 virgins in heaven if he blows up a cafe full of innocent men, women and children has a religious belief. Should you not question it? Should you simply accept that this is a personal religious belief and is therefore beyond question?

sink · 24-04-2009 5:22pm

red_ice wrote: »

So theres a time and a place for everything in that case? Dont be such a prat. your contradicting yourself in saying that a forum is a great place to slag people off for something that they hold dear to them, yet you live and let live. just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right. The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism. No its not those who actually do 'live and let live', its those muppets like yourself who think that the sanctuary of the internet means that your alright to say harsh things about peoples beliefs and in a sad attempt to belittle them.

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face. You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so. hah.

No its not. People like you are more dangerous to peoples mentality. If you really want to live and let live - stop posting here instead of making fun of peoples beliefs.. namely mine.

I find it ironic that one of the most vitriolic post I've seen on this atheism board in quiet a while is by a theist attacking atheists for being vitriolic. Pot -> Kettle -> Black :rolleyes:.

You just tarnished on of the most heterogeneous groups of people with one brush and I'm afraid it really only highlights your own ignorance of atheism and atheists in general. For instance I agree with Chocolate sauce on the issue of whether there is a god but I differ greatly from him when it comes to the overall impact of religion upon society.

lightening · 24-04-2009 6:41pm

Red ice my post was questioning the religious bashing.

You are sort of a good example why people do it actually, thanks for the insight, you are fairly aggressive and insulting if you don't mind me saying. Take a leaf out of my book. Don't go and visit the forums that you know are going to hurt your feelings or believes.

Have a good and peaceful weekend.

lostexpectation · 24-04-2009 6:58pm

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live. I have travelled a good bit and have always been tolerant to religions, I have visited temples, churches, pagodas, basilicas, synagogues, mosques and all sorts of places of worship. I have admired the art and the architecture, basked in the peacefulness of some of them and been fascinated by the weirdness of other ones. But I put it all down to superstition, it just doesn't do it for me, I don't think people who believe in a god are more stupid or clever than me, its just their bag. I believe in humans, evolved altruistic values and the love we have for each other.

I have admired in awe rainforrests, deserts, the bush, jungles, in the middle of the sea and in my very own country. (I reckon if their was a god the natural ones would make the best cathedrals!!)

I am an atheist, I had a civil marriage and plan to have a civil funeral, of course various members of my family are not happy, but I ask them to respect my believes and I respect theirs.

The thing is, I get on with my religious friends and they get on with me.

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

90% of our schools are still catholic.

Ickle Magoo · 24-04-2009 11:25pm

It's an interesting question. Atheists actively looking for a way to bash religion....hmmm.

If I had my way, I would have absolutely no involvement with religion at all; short of holiday visits to see the impressive architecture of St Paul's or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I would certainly have agreed with all your sentiments wholeheartedly until I moved to Ireland.

The fact of the matter is, try as I might, I can't actually get away from it since I moved here. Religion, or my atheism, has been repeatedly thrown in my face for many years now, often in a ridiculing, disdainful manner - ironically with regards to your post, this forum is often no different.

Between the horror that we would not get married in a church, being told that my children will be in limbo because we haven't had them Christened, having to put their names down at birth to get a place in one of the few ET schools available, the weird crucifixes we have been given as presents, the lovely lady who made the sign of the cross on my baby when she thought I wasn't looking....and the list goes on, and on, and on...

I'm just a bit sick of it all at this stage & as much as I try not to, I guess deep down I feel I've earned the right to treat organised religion in the same manner as those advocating it have/often treat me. Am I vociferously against all of the ways I must have religion impinged upon me "in the real world"? Yes. Would I treat someone who was giving me the auld "if only you could see the light" nonsense in the same manner as I would here? Yeah, I would.

That said, I do always try to imagine I'm speaking to a person as opposed to just a bunch of words on a screen.

lightening · 25-04-2009 7:29am

Yeah, Ickle Magoo, I guess it really becomes prevalent when kids arrive, get them young and all that! Some choices to be made for me and the wife when we have kids....

red_ice · 25-04-2009 3:31pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Its not racism to question a groups of peoples beliefs. Its not racism to believe they are wrong. You should be thankful of this, otherwise you could be considered racist for thinking that every atheist here is wrong, and cowardly.

im not against people questioning religion, thats up to them to do. Im talking about what the topic is about - religious bashing.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Pretty much every theist feels they are more important and better than everyone else

I dont. I used to.. but that was for different reasons, money being one. Im not saying that 'religion made me see otherwise', but it helped, maturing did the rest. Dont get me wrong, i dont go to church or any such thing. I do believe in a greater power, and i do believe theres more to life than what we see through our own eyes. Im in science myself, and for some in my frame of mind to come to terms with that is a very hard thing to do.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont force your believes on people and yet you admit if someone says something negative about your religion you "wouldnt stand for it"?

Yea.. thats a pretty straight forward thing to say.. just like you deny my religion, i deny your views on it. Im not going to sit by and listen to you slate it, but im not going to do anything about it.. ill just ignore it.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont know about anyone else, but im usually quite balanced about how i approach religious discussions with people. If someone is doing something personally religious (saying a prayer, blessing themselves etc) then i generally wont comment, but if someone started asserting something that i believed was wrong i would acost them on it. Generally i don meet very many of religious fundies that you see on the internet, so this means the internet is the best place to debate with them, and atheist + agnostic and christianity forums are good places to hold these debates.

Does the fact that im singling out your reply say something to you? You seem very level headed about this subject - unlike the other people posting here. Hence me turning my views into a 2 way conversation. I myself wouldnt try and impress anything on anyone. Yet my beliefs get bashed on a daily basis on forums like this.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Looks like you dont want to live and let live, looks like you dont like your beliefs to be questioned and just want people to stop. What would you say if i told you if people like you are actually whats worst in the world. You obviously have no faith in what you believe, otherwise people questioning it wouldn't bother you so much, and in retaliation you fall back on insults and threats.

Looks like you read my argument wrong. You can question what ever you want. I wont be swayed by it tho. Did you ever see that episode of friends where pheobe and ross are talking about evolution? Just let it go that some people dont need to have an explination - it just is like that for them because thats how it is... The only thing that id like to see stop(which wont happen), is people making fun of someone for something they believe in.

I have complete faith in what i believe, i dont have to prove anything to you, you can either take it or leave it, ill lose no sleep over the matter. What your being so bullheaded about and is really starting to annoy me tbh, is the fact that i never once said you couldnt question my religion. I said that i wouldn't question it.

YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT I dont care.

stop basing your argument on something i didnt say. This topic of conversation is about religious bashing, not questioning someones beliefs.

Overheal · 25-04-2009 5:03pm

looks like you dont like your beliefs to be questioned and just want people to stop. What would you say if i told you if people like you are actually whats worst in the world. You obviously have no faith in what you believe, otherwise people questioning it wouldn't bother you so much, and in retaliation you fall back on insults and threats.

Possibly the most retarded thing I've read all week.

You have just been deducted One Internet.

Dades · 25-04-2009 7:10pm

red_ice, in every other facet of life if something is ridiculous it's open to anyone to comment on it. Why should religion be any different?

And let's be honest, there are a lot of things to do with a lot of religions that are utterly ridiculous.

Valmont · 25-04-2009 8:36pm

Dades, why did you change your name from "The Atheist"? I know it was ages ago, I just forgot to ask.

Overblood · 25-04-2009 9:23pm

Valmont wrote: »

Dades, why did you change your name from "The Atheist"? I know it was ages ago, I just forgot to ask.

....are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Overheal · 25-04-2009 9:59pm

That going around the rest of boards with a name The Atheist might set a prejudice against you?

Valmont · 26-04-2009 2:22am

Overheal wrote: »

That going around the rest of boards with a name The Atheist might set a prejudice against you?

Perhaps, I just wanted to ask the man himself though.

I think that saying "I am an Atheist" was vastly different in 2006 than it is now. I'm of the opinion, that due to the hostility of some of the more vociferous posters, there is more of a negative connotation with saying one is an atheist than there would have been 3 or 4 years ago. The whole atheism religion gang has really grown, definitely a positive but a few unfortunate side effects.

Rev Hellfire · 26-04-2009 7:24am

I would imagine he simply changed his name because he grew tired of it or thought of a preferable one.

Most people judge posters on the contents of their posts rather than by the self assigned nickname they have chosen.

Kipperhell · 26-04-2009 8:57am

It is strange that religious people complaining about being bashed seem to ignore the daily and yearly bashing those without their chosen faith receive and how it is ingrained in the English language and social imagery.

Rev Hellfire · 26-04-2009 9:24am

Kipperhell wrote: »

It is strange that religious people complaining about being bashed seem to ignore the daily and yearly bashing those without their chosen faith receive and how it is ingrained in the English language and social imagery.

/me gets out his violin...

Kipperhell · 26-04-2009 10:30am

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

/me gets out his violin...

I am not the one complaining

yawnstretch · 26-04-2009 10:42am

Haven't read entire thread but agree with OP. The abuse goes both ways but if we leave the bashing out its better for everyone.

vinchick · 26-04-2009 11:11pm

I bash often in the real world.

I have friends who are religious and we would have debates sometimes very heated but there are never any hard feelings and we dont do it on a night out when we are catching up.

I think the live and let live is a very bad idea. Thats how things can get out of control. By calling things out and drawing attention to flaws and negetive practices we maybe can avoid in the future some of the terrible things that have been done and are being done by religion today.

Their buildings may be nice but alot of their practices certainly arent.

Húrin · 26-04-2009 11:26pm

Overblood wrote: »

By the way, the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

For example: A creationist can say to me whatever they want about evolution, which I know to be fact. I won't get offended. I'd just dismiss it. I may even laugh.

But an atheists opinion can cause offence to the religious... why is that? Is it because thay harbor some underlying doubt?.... My opinion shouldn't cause offence if they know it's untrue!!!

If atheists don't truly believe in evolution, why do they waste so many words refuting creationism? Under these standards I am certainly a far more steadfast believer in evolution than most atheists on here.

On doubt: Why do religious people get criticised if they are dead certain about their beliefs, and also criticised if they have doubts, as in the above post? Overblood, a lot of people are not offended by opinions which reveal "the truth" that atheism apparently is, but are offended by the ignorance about religion that often forms them.

All this religious bashing...

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