All this religious bashing...

lightening

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live. I have travelled a good bit and have always been tolerant to religions, I have visited temples, churches, pagodas, basilicas, synagogues, mosques and all sorts of places of worship. I have admired the art and the architecture, basked in the peacefulness of some of them and been fascinated by the weirdness of other ones. But I put it all down to superstition, it just doesn't do it for me, I don't think people who believe in a god are more stupid or clever than me, its just their bag. I believe in humans, evolved altruistic values and the love we have for each other.

I have admired in awe rainforrests, deserts, the bush, jungles, in the middle of the sea and in my very own country. (I reckon if their was a god the natural ones would make the best cathedrals!!)

I am an atheist, I had a civil marriage and plan to have a civil funeral, of course various members of my family are not happy, but I ask them to respect my believes and I respect theirs.

The thing is, I get on with my religious friends and they get on with me.

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

Owen

If someone tells me they believe in God I'm ... 'meh'. If someone is fanatical and believes Noah's Ark, Genesis, Earth being 6000 years old, then yes, I will rip the piss out of them. It's right up there with the Earth being flat, Photographs stealing your Soul, and Banshees for me.

Doctor DooM

The only time I get in any way volatile about religions is when a religion tries to make some imposition on my or others way of lives. Other than that I don't really care. In fact someone can nash on in my ear about it and I won't bat an eyelid. Life is too short to get worked up on other peoples little things.

To be fair though, here's a little different; Surely the whole point of an atheist forum is to challenge religion? What else is going to be discussed?

"So, still not believe in a given example of an all powerful deity?"

"Yup. You?"

"Yup. So... Catch the match?"

Rev Hellfire

lightening wrote: »

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

I'd imagine few people carry on in real life in the manner they do online.
The fact we all use pseudonyms shows how we like to keep our digital persona detached from our real one.

kiffer

John Gabriel's greater internet f_ckwad theory...
Normal person + anonymity + audience = total f_ckwad

Even without anonymity people on line then to be much more ... vocal than in person.

Dades

lightening wrote: »

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing?

The internet facilitates it.

lightening wrote: »

Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

Almost certainly not in most cases, I would imagine.

lightning, too much "bashing" does go one here - and is likely to be addressed shortly - but just because you are apathetic on the subject doesn't mean other people aren't entitled to a bit of secular flag waving in their 'own' forum.

Overheal

I disagree with some theories more than others (Creationism in particular) but I don't go around pointing fingers at Evangelicals for believing in it. To their credit science has been uncovering proof that some biblical events actually happened: Geologists have recently begun to theorize that Noah's Flood was actually the creation of the Mediterranean Sea, after the Straight of Gibraltar (which used to act as a natural dam) gave away.

lightening

SDooM wrote: »

What else is going to be discussed?

Evolution, altruism, Galapagos islands, Darwin, The book "The Neandartals"... lots of stuff!

Fair and good on the other points made... Didn't mean to start an argument by the way! And I am horrified at what is said in some of the other religious forum... To horrified to get involved. Yeah, fair enough Dades, the Christianity forum seems obsessed with atheists for some reason!! Seems it works both ways.

Hivemind187

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious?

Considering the bu,ll**** propaganda thats been coming through my letterbox the last two days from the Baptists I'd call it a big yes!

kiffer

I think a number of issues polarize the divide so strongly that we all get stuck on them...

Like gay rights, creationism, that whole hell thing.

I know that I personaly take a much harder line when posting than I do in face to face conversations ... Maybe because in person I can add qualifying statements more easily / without feeling that it gives the other side easy ammunition... Maybe 'cause it's harder to be annoying to someones face.

Maybe it's because people I talk to in person about these things are less likely to tell me I'm going to "burn in hell with sharp things hammered into my soul and that this is good and proper as it's God's will" ...
Not that anyone has said that exactly but ... meh.

Doctor DooM

lightening wrote: »

Evolution, altruism, Galapagos islands, Darwin, The book "The Neandartals"... lots of stuff!

Fair and good on the other points made... Didn't mean to start an argument by the way! And I am horrified at what is said in some of the other religious forum... To horrified to get involved. Yeah, fair enough Dades, the Christianity forum seems obsessed with atheists for some reason!! Seems it works both ways.

Ah yes, but the only reason evolution et al. is connected to atheism at all is because religious parties decry it. It has nothing to do with being an atheist other than that, surely? What does biology have to do with atheism?

Remember it's certain religious groups that like the use the term "evolutionist", and connect evolution to the birth of the universe etc- it shouldn't be but is.

That is a perfect example of something which should be defended, and most right thinking religious people would agree with that too I think.

red_ice

ned78 wrote: »

If someone tells me they believe in God I'm ... 'meh'. If someone is fanatical and believes Noah's Ark, Genesis, Earth being 6000 years old, then yes, I will rip the piss out of them. It's right up there with the Earth being flat, Photographs stealing your Soul, and Banshees for me.

i believe an interest in aviation is a stupid interest. I think its right up there with stamp collecting and playing strategy based board games like that of the shop on liffy street.. games workshop. but i keep that to myself.

robindch

lightening wrote: »

Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

I couldn't imagine any reasonable person getting upset with a religious person who keeps their religious beliefs to themselves.

Having said that, most religious people certainly don't keep their religion to themselves and instead see it as their solemn duty to spread it, and that certainly does get up the noses of many people, religious and otherwise.

As happened to me yesterday. While checking out a playschool for my two year old, the headmistress finished up a long and glowing account of how good the school was with an almost incidental bit about it having a very strong "christian ethos"(*), and that she made sure that all the little bunnies prayed together at the beginning of every day. Bahai included.

Huh? This is a school, not a church. Why on earth does a women I've never met before automatically assume the right to indoctrinate my child?

Anyhow, if religious people kept their religion to themselves, peace would ensure. And the forum would probably die too. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose

(*) insert usual comment here.

Dades

lightening wrote: »

And I am horrified at what is said in some of the other religious forum... To horrified to get involved.

I don't venture over the wire much myself for the same reason.

ChocolateSauce

Religious bashing is something that has a certain time and place, and an atheist internet forum is one of the best places for it. I'm an anti-theist, but I certainly don't go around in real life telling people their religion is stupid and so on, precisely because I believe in live and let live.

Is it needed? Absolutely. If there isn't a forum, somewhere, where religion can be open to fair criticism (and ridicule and hatred is fair, IMO), it will proceed unchecked, and religion unchecked is more dangerous than anything else I can possibly imagine.

kiffer

Overheal wrote: »

I disagree with some theories more than others (Creationism in particular) but I don't go around pointing fingers at Evangelicals for believing in it. To their credit science has been uncovering proof that some biblical events actually happened: Geologists have recently begun to theorize that Noah's Flood was actually the creation of the Mediterranean Sea, after the Straight of Gibraltar (which used to act as a natural dam) gave away.

... Um not exactly. Last time I checked the most recent emptying and reflooding of the Med. was 6 million years ago... But sea levels were lower during the ice age so people could have been flooded out of it in coastal areas... But the levels didn't rise over night...

Overblood

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live. I have travelled a good bit and have always been tolerant to religions, I have visited temples, churches, pagodas, basilicas, synagogues, mosques and all sorts of places of worship. I have admired the art and the architecture, basked in the peacefulness of some of them and been fascinated by the weirdness of other ones.

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

A lot of these "attacks" are merely questions. Ask a person about his faith, and if the questions blatantly point to obvious flaws, you are undermining what they have lived their whole life by and will reject it and take offence to it.

I liken it to keeping your eyes closed when you wake in the morning to cling onto the last scene of a dream. Any external influence, one peek at your bedroom, or noise like a car horn or a dog's bark will shatter the dream, and you will no longer be on that beautiful desert island with Jessica Alba.:pac: In this case, the car horn and dogs barking are our criticisms and "bashing".

Everybody has a right to criticize with regards to music, movies, art in general, soccer teams, whatever. I can say that Tom Cruise is the "WORST ACTOR EVAR" and nobody will bat an eye. But when it comes to criticizing religion, offence is taken.

There's nothing wrong with the architecture. Some of it is truly awe inspiring, especially the larger gothic cathedrals with their super-awesome gargoyles. As far as I know, I don't think anyone here "bashes" religious architecture.




But religious beliefs themselves are a huge piñata just asking to be poked, especially in this day and age.

And yes I do carry on like this in the real world. I don't actively seek out religious discussion, but when it does happen, I have no problems in giving my opinion. And obviously some people are shocked, as if I have just told them that their child is the ugliest creature I've ever seen.

Handsome Bob

robindch wrote: »

Having said that, most religious people certainly don't keep their religion to themselves and instead see it as their solemn duty to spread it.

:rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that. I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments OP.

Rev Hellfire

Its probably worth noting that anyone who posts in the Religion & Spirituality category most likely has either has a chip on their shoulder or is heavily invested in the whole thing. Those that aren't are just looking for a good argument and a chance to stroke the flame. So you'd naturally expect the views here to be extreme.

karen3212

If you think a belief in XYZ is stupid, wrong or dangerous, then I think it should be said, and discuss the issue often if they wish.

People should try and separate the person from the belief, and hopefully come to understand how another came to their opinion/belief. I have plenty of respect for people even though their beliefs might seem completely silly to me.

I don't believe in shutting people up, I would rather try and understand where their beliefs come from.

Overblood

lightening wrote: »

Evolution, altruism, Galapagos islands, Darwin, The book "The Neandartals"... lots of stuff!

There's a biology forum for that... If we stopped criticizing religion here, there's be nothing to talk about.

By the way, the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

For example: A creationist can say to me whatever they want about evolution, which I know to be fact. I won't get offended. I'd just dismiss it. I may even laugh.

But an atheists opinion can cause offence to the religious... why is that? Is it because thay harbor some underlying doubt?.... My opinion shouldn't cause offence if they know it's untrue!!!

Fighting Irish

Its not about someone being religious, its about religion affecting people that have no interest in it.

Goduznt Xzst

It depends on the individual tbh. Some people, whether online or not, do not like confrontation. Others like to quickly acquiesce if they see the written substitutes for prosodic intonation indicating the argument is becoming heated.

Some feel that Atheists have the burden of showing that we are equally as civil and moral as the religious would claim they are, and in such would restrain themselves for fear of proving true a stereotype of Atheists created for us by Theists.

Maybe it depends on which kind of Atheist you are, maybe some are more Humanist and maybe some are more Secularist. Who knows.

Personally, I like confrontation and argument. Even if I agree with someone on a point I will tend to always play devils advocate to extract a sense of why a person holds an opinion.

Plus this is the A&A forum. The Atheists here believe the Gods of organized religions don't exist. Whether or not some of the posters here are more taciturn than others it doesn't change the fact that we all think religious people are deluded or are very arrogantly saying they know truths about the universe that they can't possibly know.

red_ice

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Religious bashing is something that has a certain time and place, and an atheist internet forum is one of the best places for it. I'm an anti-theist, but I certainly don't go around in real life telling people their religion is stupid and so on, precisely because I believe in live and let live.

So theres a time and a place for everything in that case? Dont be such a prat. your contradicting yourself in saying that a forum is a great place to slag people off for something that they hold dear to them, yet you live and let live. just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right. The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism. No its not those who actually do 'live and let live', its those muppets like yourself who think that the sanctuary of the internet means that your alright to say harsh things about peoples beliefs and in a sad attempt to belittle them.

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face. You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so. hah.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Is it needed? Absolutely. If there isn't a forum, somewhere, where religion can be open to fair criticism (and ridicule and hatred is fair, IMO), it will proceed unchecked, and religion unchecked is more dangerous than anything else I can possibly imagine.

No its not. People like you are more dangerous to peoples mentality. If you really want to live and let live - stop posting here instead of making fun of peoples beliefs.. namely mine.

aidan24326

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live... ...I am an atheist, I had a civil marriage and plan to have a civil funeral, of course various members of my family are not happy, but I ask them to respect my believes and I respect theirs

Members of your family are not happy? Well there isn't very much live and let live going on there? Were a member of your family, a religious believer, to (naturally enough) get married in a church, would you openly take issue with this, perhaps deride then for it? Of course you wouldn't, but you'll note that you weren't afforded the same courtesy. So who exactly is living and letting live here?

Is the religious bashing thing an internet thing? Do you carry on like this outside, in the real world?

I don't actively seek out confrontation with religious people in everyday life, as much as possible I do indeed live and let live. But where the subject crops up I wouldn't shy away from expressing my opinions, and where my views or my non-belief should offend a religious person I would consider that more their problem than mine. If someone steadfastly believes in something I fail to see why they should take offence at someone holding an opposing view, assuming of course that that someone isn't being deliberately offensive just for the sake of it.

Overblood wrote: »

By the way, the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

For example: A creationist can say to me whatever they want about evolution, which I know to be fact. I won't get offended. I'd just dismiss it. I may even laugh.

But an atheists opinion can cause offence to the religious... why is that? Is it because thay harbor some underlying doubt?.... My opinion shouldn't cause offence if they know it's untrue!!!

That's something I've always wondered about, and I've always felt that it shows a deep-rooted insecurity within the minds of many religious people, insecurity with the whole foundation of what they claim to believe in. I mean over on the islam forum you're not allowed say anything even remotely against the grain without being banned, so there's little point in even trying to engage them in debate. And yet these are the same people who outwardly profess an unshakeable certainty that they are right. Strange that.

I was at a christening recently and it was laughable to see the contrivances and mental gymnastics the priest was having to go through while trying to explain original sin and all of that, he really was talking in riddles and you could tell that deep down maybe he wasn't too sure about the whole thing himself.

red_ice

red_ice wrote: »

The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism.

Im not counting hick jesus freaks and the likes. Im talking about run of the mill average people here. Just to clarify.

aidan24326

red_ice wrote: »

just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right.

Challenging someone's religious beliefs isn't racism. It isn't any 'ism', it's merely holding an opposing view and seeing if the other side can successfully defend their point of view (that's called debate btw) and strangely enough most of the religious believers who venture in here fail spectacularly.

Dades

red_ice wrote: »

...

You get this one warning. Any more abuse and you're gone.

Overblood

red_ice wrote: »

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face. You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so. hah.

I don't know if that was directed at just Chocolate Sauce or all of us. As I said, I have no problem discussing religious beliefs with people in the real world, and quite enjoy it. I speak alot about it, with believers and non-believers alike.

If a catholic reads the following, he/she won't be very happy, but I managed to instill doubt in a "catholic's" mind about his beliefs. I didn't state any facts or force my views upon him. I simply asked questions that left gaping, obvious plotholes in the integrity of his religion. A lot of the questions were ones that never occured to him, as the religious culture is to not question ones beliefs. I didn't convert him, but after our discussion he was left a bit doubful. Positively doubtful I might add. He was agreeing with me. He was open-minded. Is that good/bad? Dunno. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't need to hide behind my computer screen to challenge religion.

lightening

aidan24326 wrote: »

Members of your family are not happy? Well there isn't very much live and let live going on there?

I explained things to them, they saw what I was about, understood that I was being true to myself and thoroughly enjoyed the day.

Mark Hamill

red_ice wrote: »

just because there's a forum out there for racism doesn't make it right.

Its not racism to question a groups of peoples beliefs. Its not racism to believe they are wrong. You should be thankful of this, otherwise you could be considered racist for thinking that every atheist here is wrong, and cowardly.

red_ice wrote: »

The problem with this world is that some 'isms' feel they are more important that others, more intelligent.. better over all.. and i see it most in atheism.

Pretty much every theist feels they are more important and better than everyone else, how else do you explain the arrogance in assuming that an all powerful deity could give a crap about some bald apes on a planet in the middle of nowhere?

red_ice wrote: »

Im obviously out numbered on this forum, and tbh, i dont frequent and religious forums, but you and your views imo are narrow minded and ignorant. I dont force my beliefs on anyone, and i wouldnt stand for someone saying something negative about me and my religion to my face.

You dont force your believes on people and yet you admit if someone says something negative about your religion you "wouldnt stand for it"?

red_ice wrote: »

You wont say it to their face.. you wait until you get home to your computer so you can go on a forum and do so.

I dont know about anyone else, but im usually quite balanced about how i approach religious discussions with people. If someone is doing something personally religious (saying a prayer, blessing themselves etc) then i generally wont comment, but if someone started asserting something that i believed was wrong i would acost them on it. Generally i don meet very many of religious fundies that you see on the internet, so this means the internet is the best place to debate with them, and atheist + agnostic and christianity forums are good places to hold these debates.

red_ice wrote: »

hah.

Mature :rolleyes:

red_ice wrote: »

No its not. People like you are more dangerous to peoples mentality. If you really want to live and let live - stop posting here instead of making fun of peoples beliefs.. namely mine.

Looks like you dont want to live and let live, looks like you dont like your beliefs to be questioned and just want people to stop. What would you say if i told you if people like you are actually whats worst in the world. You obviously have no faith in what you believe, otherwise people questioning it wouldn't bother you so much, and in retaliation you fall back on insults and threats.