N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [under construction]

hans aus dtschl

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Also there's a huge huge issue with the central government and Irish commentary notion of "Dublin and non-Dublin". It's throwing Cork and the other cities into the "rural Ireland" category because we've a major psychological barrier to recognising that we've more than one urban area.

Of everything you say this is the most critical, to me. It's a metropolitan area being treated like a small town. Ring roads and bypasses are the order of the day.

marno21

Micheal Martin op ed in today's paper:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/people-need-to-know-now-whether-project-is-going-ahead-935557.html

Also, Kevin O'Keeffe wants to summon TII in front of the Oireachtas Transport Committee

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Transport-bosses-to-be-called-before-Oireachtas-committee-amid-fears-of-Dunkettle-Interchange-standstill-764c5fb3-f943-43cf-bbc7-d3d0af26c303-ds

They are overdue at this stage to be honest. Given the NDP containing €6.6bn of spend on national roads they should be on the Committee at least biannually to highlight exactly what is causing all these ****ups. We already have a fair idea but it does bear amplification.

marno21

And another piece from de paper on the history of the project

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/long-wait-goes-on-for-key-roads-project-935591.html

hans aus dtschl

At this rate it'd be cheaper and faster to do the NRR!

I'm only half-joking.

Cork Trucker

The whole thing has become sobering in recent days, this is going to become another NRR/M20, once any doubt from government circles creeps into the public domain then it's doomed.

prunudo

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The whole thing has become sobering in recent days, this is going to become another NRR/M20, once any doubt from government circles creeps into the public domain then it's doomed.

And similar to the drip feeding of leaks before the Metrolink plan was released earlier this year. Its all about spin and putting out feelers to see what the genral public think with the current crowd.

Cork Trucker

prunudo wrote: »

And similar to the drip feeding of leaks before the Metrolink plan was released earlier this year. Its all about spin and putting out feelers to see what the genral public think with the current crowd.

An election is not too far away as well, if they want a hammering in Cork they are going the right way about it. Not too up to date on the metrolink if i'm honest.

Cork Trucker

Common sense really

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-TD-Dunkettle-delays-could-have-serious-consequences-7ccae58a-9dd3-4e22-a8b4-2de6939a91cd-ds

FEARS are rising that soaring costs at the Dunkettle Interchange upgrade could delay the project by up to two years and cause knock-on consequences for other major infrastructure projects in Cork.

kub

What gauls me about this and indeed The Event Centre is that, with all the private commerical developments going on in Cork, there must be some amount of tax revenue being collected from them all.


I have always voted for FG, however if this continues, I will not be.

Cork Trucker

kub wrote: »

What gauls me about this and indeed The Event Centre is that, with all the private commerical developments going on in Cork, there must be some amount of tax revenue being collected from them all.


I have always voted for FG, however if this continues, I will not be.

Ireland doesn’t exist outside of Dublin to many

hans aus dtschl

There's no point in laying all of the blame at FG, there's plenty of blame to go round.

kub

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

There's no point in laying all of the blame at FG, there's plenty of blame to go round.

You are correct, they have transformed the country from the condition it was in after FF.
The Government control the purse strings and are the first to proclaim the good news and all that goes with it and of course take all the credit.


Therefore if they are so quick to take the praise, what is the issue with the blame?


It is absolutely ridiculous that we have The Tanaiste of this country living down here and yet he cannot get this long list of projects over the line.


Also if we are not to blame FG, then why is Simon Coveney constantly bluffing about things like the Events Centre and saying Cork will be the quickest growing city etc etc etc.

Limerick74

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Transport-body-to-be-questioned-on-Dunkettle-Interchange-costs-e97c2d7b-44df-434c-9f0a-56cb7e70b81b-ds

hans aus dtschl

kub wrote: »

You are correct, they have transformed the country from the condition it was in after FF.
The Government control the purse strings and are the first to proclaim the good news and all that goes with it and of course take all the credit.


Therefore if they are so quick to take the praise, what is the issue with the blame?


It is absolutely ridiculous that we have The Tanaiste of this country living down here and yet he cannot get this long list of projects over the line.


Also if we are not to blame FG, then why is Simon Coveney constantly bluffing about things like the Events Centre and saying Cork will be the quickest growing city etc etc etc.

Hey don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to spare anyone: I'm just saying there's too few politicians banging the "second city" drum.

Limerick74

Interesting Oireachtas Committee today on Dunkettle. Video will be available in time on https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/committees/

Limerick74

Limerick74 wrote: »

Interesting Oireachtas Committee today on Dunkettle. Video will be available in time on https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/committees/

Transcript and video now available at https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_tourism_and_sport/2019-07-17/

hans aus dtschl

Limerick74 wrote: »

Transcript and video now available at https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_tourism_and_sport/2019-07-17/

Well worth a read, thanks.

Eamon Ryan really changed the topic but some of the points he raised were correct also. TII's answer was "we're just doing what we're being told to do" and the buck stops at the NTA and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

marno21

Latest from Cork RDO:

* Due to the scale and complexity of the project, the form of contract chosen by TII to deliver this project is a 2-stage contract with ‘Early Contractor Involvement’.

* Stage 1 is used to de-risk the project in advance of the Stage 2 main works construction. At Stage 1, TII works with the Stage 1 contractor to develop the design and seek clarity on costs associated with Stage 2 construction.

* In May 2018, following a competition, the contract was awarded to John Sisk and Son Limited. During Stage 1, in addition to developing the design of the project in detail, the contractor has carried out additional ground investigations, engaged with utility owners, undertaken environmental mitigation works, and developed construction methods and sequencing. Complex traffic management arrangements, which are crucial to minimising disruption to motorists during the upgrade works, have also been developed.

* On the basis of the design development completed during Stage 1, the contractor will, over the coming days, submit their forecast of the cost to carry out the main works construction.

* TII will then assess this submission to determine if this cost is acceptable. It is anticipated that this assessment will be complete within the next month. If TII and the Stage 1 contractor agree this cost, TII will submit to the Department of Transport, Tourism & Sport, requesting approval from Government, to proceed to Stage 2.

* If the cost is not agreed, then Stage 2, main works construction, will be removed from the contract and TII will return to the marketplace to seek to achieve better value for the taxpayer. If this is the case, the site investigation, planning, and design developed to date will be used as part of a new tender process. If required, it is anticipated that this additional tender process would take 12 to 18 months to complete.

* If this additional time is required, some works, such as major utility diversions, are likely to continue as smaller advance works items, in order to further de-risk the project and minimise the time required to complete the main construction works

prunudo

Sounds to me that there is either a major flaw the costings for major projects recently or a complete lacking in understanding of the complexity of some of these projects.

Bacchus

Sounds like they're trying to soften the ultimate blow of a massive delay by laying out "this is how the process works and whatever happens, it's all part of the plan so there's nothing to see here".

Pete_Cavan

marno21 wrote: »

* Stage 1 is used to de-risk the project in advance of the Stage 2 main works construction. At Stage 1, TII works with the Stage 1 contractor to develop the design and seek clarity on costs associated with Stage 2 construction.

In this case, derisk means the contractor throws in costs the worst case scenario for every possible thing that could go wrong, thereby ensuring that the final cost cannot be higher than the agreed price. Zero risk of costs increasing during the project but the contract value is off the charts.

Pete_Cavan

prunudo wrote: »

Sounds to me that there is either a major flaw the costings for major projects recently or a complete lacking in understanding of the complexity of some of these projects.

In the case of this project and the Children's Hospital, I'd say the problem is procurement processes which allows a single contractor a foot in the door to see where all the claims are and then trying to agree a price with that contractor, who already has an intimate knowledge of the project, and no competition to force them to sharpen their pencil. The drive to "derisk" the project and avoid cost increases is probably also leading to excessive risk transfer to the contractor which puts a premium on the price.

Lackadaisical

Sounds like this will be cancelled then, having already screwed up the tree cover and landscaping around the junction too.

Total mess.

Last Stop

To be fair to SISK, this project is being done by a target price contract. That means that if the project exceeds the target price, SISK will pay for the extras. If it comes in below target price, SISK get a share of the savings.

This is the way all large infrastructure projects should be done in Ireland going forward.

The problems are that the upfront cost increases (not really as this is the true cost anyway) leading to bad PR especially from the opposition and contractors will make sure to cover their arses which is clearly the case here.

I think TII are trying to play hardball here and SISK will eventually reduce the price slightly subject to reduced risk etc.

I would imagine this will all be sorted over the next few weeks as retendering would be a dangerous option for FG given their track record in Cork of late and FFs prominence

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

To be fair to SISK, this project is being done by a target price contract. That means that if the project exceeds the target price, SISK will pay for the extras. If it comes in below target price, SISK get a share of the savings.

This is the way all large infrastructure projects should be done in Ireland going forward.

I would say that the delivery of the construction stage of large infrastructure projects has been quite successful here for a good while (the less said about planning and approval stages the better). Deviation from the normal contracts has been a disaster for this and the Children's Hospital. We should stick with what has been successful and continue to refine and improve the contracts, as the GCCC has been doing.

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I would say that the delivery of the construction stage of large infrastructure projects has been quite successful here for a good while (the less said about planning and approval stages the better). Deviation from the normal contracts has been a disaster for this and the Children's Hospital. We should stick with what has been successful and continue to refine and improve the contracts, as the GCCC has been doing.

It’s been well known for sometime that several major projects have come in over budget. The M3, port tunnel and children’s hospital come to mind. These were more complex that the projects that were delivered on budget. Therefore while we do have a pretty good track record, for complex project like this one, target price removes the risk to the tax payer which makes sense

spacetweek

I think some people here are overreacting.

It’s more likely that all we’ve seen so far is simply the standard playbook for a complex project like this and the TII are trying to prevent the construction company from shafting us.

blindsider

spacetweek wrote: »

I think some people here are overreacting.

It’s more likely that all we’ve seen so far is simply the standard playbook for a complex project like this and the TII are trying to prevent the construction company from shafting us.

We live in hope...!

blindsider

...thought I heard a snippet on the radio this morning, which hinted strongly at an 18 month delay. (THis suggests a re-tender...?)

More good news for Cork! :rolleyes:

tonc76

blindsider wrote: »

...thought I heard a snippet on the radio this morning, which hinted strongly at an 18 month delay. (THis suggests a re-tender...?)

More good news for Cork! :rolleyes:

What radio station was this on?