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N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The whole general plan for that area is high density. I'm not sure how many times I'm going to need to write that: they're hoping for a population of >25k and >20k jobs in the area. The main words they keep using in relation to it are "sustainable" and "urban centre".

    Also, I fully agree that the city has not got a high enough density now, that is something that all of the people planning aspire to change.

    I think you're basically proving my point that any new Eastern Gateway Bridge will be inundated with people wanting it to allow car access if they do it in the near future. What an Eastern Gateway Bridge is absolutely NOT intended to facilitate will be cross-city car journeys, but these would be the primary "winners" if it were built.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    I'm in Spain at the moment and their cities are thriving centers of accommodation with small shops and restaurants the support the residents daily needs. All the large retail outlets, commercial and industrial zones are around the outside of the cities.

    Public transport is abundant and cheap, €1 or €1.20 wherever you need to go.

    It looks like we got it arseways back in the '70s and afterwards when satellite dormitory towns were seen as the way forward. Instead of populating our cities and towns with people we populated them with large retail outlets which now have reduced our city and town centres to inhospitable areas outside of business hours.

    The creation of satellite dormitory towns with insufficient public transport interconnectivity have spawned the need for cross city car travel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,395 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    One neighbourhood being "high density" doesn't enable car-free though. You'll have people in there with jobs in Little Island, family in Glanmire, GAA clubs in Midleton, enjoy their open water swimming, all who will need cars at other times of their lives. Building housing for 25,000 people and expecting them to live without cars is fanciful. The most active users (I include myself who cycles 45 mns to work), also need a car to survive life.

    If you're expecting 25,000 people to move into that area and live withing 2km, and rely on bikes and public transport for other journeys, that sounds setup to fail



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Currently, over 20% of households in Cork City have no car. In a low-density environment (we've already agreed that). With no light rail, poor bus infrastructure, very poor cycle infrastructure, and mediocre pedestrian infrastructure.

    I guess they don't have jobs in Little Island, family in Glanmire, enjoy open water swimming etc (I'm obviously being facetious by saying this). But honestly I don't understand whether you're deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying about cross-city traffic, or just that I haven't explained myself properly. There WILL be car access to the South Docklands urban area. There's no question about this. It just must not be the dominant mode. Putting in a new bridge which will primarily facilitate cars (because buses and light rail will go via Kent) will therefore be a retrograde step. If we make sustainable transport easier than car-based transport then people will use it as their preferred mode. We need to get things TO the city not THROUGH the city, and that Eastern Gateway bridge looks like a bad idea to me.

    So my opinion is that I'd prefer to connect cars south of the river to the N27, connect cars North of the river to the N8 and N20, basically. Whereas if we connect the N8 at Tivoli across the river to the Southside, I'm telling you now straight off that I'll use it myself to get in and out of the city. It'll encourage me to drive in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    They responded saying essentially the signage is working and will stay as is, including the Cork/City Centre/Limerick situation at Little Island



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,354 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    Wait till 1 of them get cut across from a car in the left lane realising they've to make the Dublin exit



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    They didn’t actually acknowledge the Dublin sign, just the N25 signs at Little Island. They said it’s too far for drivers to be located into the lanes that align with the N8, and that the Cork part of the sign refers to the entire city (e.g. Douglas, Ballypheane, etc). I’m not too sure what they meant by that when that’s what Westbound is for



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    in my mind, TII should be held liable for accidents where drivers in the left lane try to take the Dublin slip going north. The signage is completely incorrect and dangerous.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's something seriously lacking with the signage on the 'dumbbell roundabouts' for City Centre / Cork. I have come in to Cork late in the evening / early AM several times this week and EVERY time there's been a car / camper van looking totally baffled stopping to figure out the signs etc.

    I also know several people who've ended up in the the tunnel instead of on the N8 into the city centre down the Lower Glanmire Road.

    The signage is fine until you exit the N40 and then the local signage on the overpasses and roundabouts is just inadequate.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, in that case I suppose I we should get a large tax discount. We get absolutely crap public services and abysmal public transport.

    If I'm being 'punished' by faceless bureaucrats because NIMBYism of local councillors, I will be voting against all the government TDs next time a general election comes up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    I haven’t driven it yet but passing on the air coach, the signage at the southernmost dumbbell looks so confusing. There are signs pointing this lane for westbound that then disappear

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    I've mentioned this before. Maybe the person responsible for the signs isn't a car driver and has no understanding of the need for signs which give unambiguous information in good time.

    Maybe he/she just coasts along cycle lanes on a pushbike.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    I was on the AirCoach recently and the driver realised what the signs meant last minute, he had almost gone back onto the M8/towards the tunnel



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,395 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    I reckon the issue with the signs starts with the geography of the area and what people understand by it. "Cork" or "City Centre" can mena Tivoli or Tunnel direction for different people. Similarly Westbound can mean Tivoli or Tunnel for different people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep they might need more granular than "Cork" or "City Centre". The signs coming near the M50 say "City Centre" and "Inchicore" for instance. Maybe we need to have "City Centre" and "Tivoli" together.

    I think there's an additional detail though: I think they're trying to also partly trying to send people to the city centre via the N27.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I know you're joking but just to come at it from the opposite side of the joke: nobody on that project has ever been on a bike!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    Icould agree with that, given the convoluted routing of the cycleways between the city and Little Island.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,680 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Perhaps there needs to be a road safety HIQUA type body, who can assess signs, markings etc and order them sorted if they are not done correctly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    And it shouldn't take months of emails to councillors, TII and Cork RDO to get a response of "it's fine, we're leaving it as is"



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    That's why I think Westbound/the tunnel should also have "Cork City (South)", like is done in Galway. Also, "Cork" also excludes Glanmire which is now part of Cork



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    Local knowledge is a bad thing when designing and signing off on direction signs.

    In such multi link interchanges like the Dunkettle Interchange an audit of the effectiveness and unambiguity of all the signage should be carried out by a complete stranger (as a tourist would be) who is not familiar with the area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    A Park and Ride station at Dunkettle, amongst others,

    https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2024/0524/1450928-rail-stations-cork/



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,569 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Is this still under construction or does the thread title need an update?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭cantalach


    There are still a lot of cones, and yesterday morning there were workers doing stuff behind the crash barrier on the tunnel-to-Tivoli slip. So I think it’s not done yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭MrDerp


    I think the new layout is counter-intuitive for many drivers:

    1. Right-hand exits (e.g. N40 → M8) is highly unusual, there are very few right-hand exits here - trumpet interchanges are few and far between. I find myself mentally going into the old lanes, regardless of any sign-posting.
    2. M8 South to N8 West via the dumbell you'd want to be prepared for, it feels all kinds of wrong.

    I lived in Dublin during the M50 upgrade, and was using the Red Cow daily at the time. It was highly chaotic to bed in, and even now despite having done N7 N → M50 N hundreds of times since, my senses still prick up approaching the interchange because it's no longer middle straight on to Dublin, left M50N and right M50 S as you'd expect intuitively.

    Daily drivers fall in line into automatic mode, but occasional drivers won't - most people simply cannot drive to the signs, regardless of if they're any good, hell there's a still enough drivers who can't use roundabouts to make me double-wide going through them. My mother will probably avoid this interchange for the rest of her driving days now, because it's changed from the pattern she learned previously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    I simply can't understand why the exit for the M8 northbound isn't signposted in the same way that the exit for the N8 westbound is.

    Having the sign for exit for the M8 spread across both lanes of the N40 makes no sense and draws many drivers to the conclusion that the M8 can be accessed from the lefthand lane of the N40. The result is that those mislead make a last minute dive across the righthand lane to reach the slip to M8. A highly dangerous manoeuvre.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I think they're maybe trying to spread the overall tunnel traffic load evenly, to maintain maximum traffic flow. But what results is dangerous last-second lane changes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Didn't take long, less than a minute to see this one,

    Didn't have time to indicate!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Since it's illegal to change lanes in the tunnel, traffic needs to be in the correct lane before the tunnel.

    At peak times, when traffic builds up, traffic should ideally be in the correct lane before it meets any tailback. Signage needs to take this into account.

    Right lane for N25 (East) and M8 (North)
    this should also make it clear, before the tunnel that the M8 exit is to the right.

    Left lane for N8 (West) and N25 (East)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭serfboard




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